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Mooresey
Hi all yes another DPF question!!!

Having broken down in London I had two RAC guys looking at my car and trying to get it working again (fat chance I here you shout). Well yes :rolleyes: With two engine lights on, one of the guys says that maybe I have the wrong oil in it and its burning to much soot thats clogging the filter.

Can this be true?
jeebowhite
Could be, as the filter is overly sensitive and useless!!! the problem with the DPF is that it does try to extract too much guff, and as a result it can block up the filter. You did comment on my DPF removal thread, so you may find that useful, but you really need to check for DTC codes, and probably pay ford your left arm to diagnose the issue, and then your right arm to fix it...

How many miles have you clocked - if you have done above 65000 it seems very likely to be the filter...
Mooresey
I have done 99k and ford had it in the shop in october to fill the "goop tank" as it was bone dry "DPF service". Do you think it needs a replacement dpf filter and an oil/filter change?
jeebowhite
If the tank is dry then no doubt you will need a new filter. the eolys fluid actively cleans the filter as much as it can, if it cant inject the eolys fluid into the filter, then it doesnt try to clean itself and instead turns into a giant ball of useless (more useless than normal!), it then clogs up, and chokes your engine, and then the ECU cries, and throws a tantrum, and your local dealer then charges you a fortune to make it all happy again...

If its lasted 99k then its done better than I would have imagined... but likely as not you have a bill coming your way. If you want a removal and you live near london/Greenwich and want to get the filter removed. Call SinSpeed (as per my removal thread) and just say you spoke to someone who then advised if you booked by the end of this week then you could get the removal done for 500... its worth a try to get a dirt cheap fix...?
catch
What was on the clock when Ford topped up the Eloys additive reservoir? A full reservoir will last you at least 37.5K miles but probably a lot more. Hence the Ford schedule states it should be topped up every three years.

So it's fair to say, unless you have done 37K plus miles since October :rolleyes: the tank is not empty. And I would put money on it that your motor was sold on before the sixth year of 75k service [which ever comes first] was due.

Why do they do that? Well because its called the £1000 service that's why.

So unfortunately you bought a motor with a DPF that was due changing as per the maintenance schedule. You have had the Eloys refilled, but unfortunately as you have done 32% [24k] more miles on that DPF than the recommended mileage before filter renewal.75K is set as filter renewal, because any mileage you do over 75K manufactures reckon your living on borrowed time before the DPF irretrievably fails.

So you have choices to make:

1. Sell on as is.

2. Pay for a dealer induced forced regeneration, it may work it may not then sell on.

3. Replace the DPF.

4. Remove the DPF
Mooresey
If I rev the bajesus out of the car would that regen the DPF, burn off the soot and will the warning lights go out?
Mooresey
If I needed a new DPF where would be the best place to get one? Can it be fitted by any mechanic or does it have to be ford?
johnH
you can probably pick one up relatively cheap from a breakers or parts shop. google can be your best friend on where to find them.

you can replace the dpf yourself, its located right next to the catalytic converter...you take the unit off, it splits and in one side you have dpf the other is cat. (thats if i have researched it right). the only thing you need a dealer for is to reset the additive counter on the ecu.

to be honest with you, removal as per jee's post, is more than likely the cheapest and best option. it's investing in saving money in the future. your car will perform better, better mpg...tbh i dont think there is any neg points.
Daryll
This talk of removing the DPF has me puzzled....so what happens at your MOT when they do the emmissions test?? won't it fail??

My 09 1.6tdci costs me 30 a year to tax, because of the low emissions, so I'm saving 120 a year just on tax, as well as saving on fuel costs as I'm getting 45-50 mpg, instead of 30.

To me, that outweighs the 100-150 cost of a dpf additive top-up every 3 years.

... thats as long as the DPF behaves and doesn't get clogged.!!

I do about 7-8k miles a year so its going to take me about 5 years to get to 75K, (cars now done 39k), so even the 1000 service is probably paid for.
jeebowhite
Because they retune the ECU and change the fuel usage, the emissions balance out. A good company (such as SinSpeed I have spoken of in another post, offer a two year guarantee on the job they do and guarantee it will pass the MOT.

Its all about tweaking what is put into the engine, put more in, get more crap out! However if you put less in, remove the obstacles from the exhaust system, then you still get more power, but with less emissions!

The only thing I can liken it to is a runner.

Stick a runner on a track with hurdles, give him a few lucazades and set him off, because he has to jump the hurdles it slows him down even with the extra energy, he still cant keep the pace because of the obstacles, in essence, he has wasted what he has taken in because he has had to put that extra energy into the jumps with no real reward, it hasnt sped him up that much...

Following day, take the hurdles away, and just let him run, because its a clear pass, he can just go for it, nothing to get in the way, nothing to slow him down, he doesnt need the extra energy drinks and he can still do better, so its saved him the bottles of lucazade.

I have emailed ford asking about removal and if there are any repurcussions, so am happy to update the post if anyone will find it useful!

Long and short is the DPF is an over rated Catalytic Converter. The cat removes most of the crap that comes out of the exhaust and so the DPF just removes the remainder of the dirt.
catch
[quote name='Daryll' timestamp='1298015635' post='114695']
This talk of removing the DPF has me puzzled....so what happens at your MOT when they do the emmissions test?? won't it fail??[/quote]

Ah well there you go Daryall, I've heard arguments both ways but definitely nothing that I would put my money on, and sleep soundly at night.

But what is beyond dispute is the fact that if you modify your vehicle in regard to its engine and or performance, you should notify the DVLA [vehicle taxation] and you insurance company. Failure to do so can lead to you facing prosecution by the DVLA, and possibly open-ended financial liabilities on your part, when your insurance company walks away from a claim where your deemed to be at fault. [non disclosure under their terms and conditions]

I know some people will say, yes but what's the chances of that happening? Well I'll answer that rhetorical question by asking another one. What were the chances of a 30 year old Police State, sustained and bank rolled to the tune of $1.6 billion per year by the most powerful military nation in the world .....collapsing in 18 days?

Back to the question, well all I will say is this, mimic the mindset of a Derivatives Trader on the Financial Futures Markets. In that before he/she takes a position in the "Market" he/she first evaluates the risk/reward ratio.

And in this instance the risk/reward ratio stacks up something like this. Lets do the [b]Reward[/b] evaluation first. The savings to be made by paying for the DPF removal, set against the cost of DPF replacement and one top up mid way in the six year ownership cycle. Why do I say "six year ownership cycle" because in all probability the vast majority of owners change their vehicle well within that time scale. So there are no onward savings past the 6 year cycle for the vast majority of owners. So basically taking the latter into consideration there is actually little or no saving in that regard. But you will most likely gain the odd 1 to 2 miles per gallon because of the elimination of the regeneration cycle. So that's the sum total of the rewards.

Now lets evaluate the [b]Risks[/b] easy, I refer readers to my second paragraph. And on top of that, possible engine management overwrite problems. Plus possible litigation problems in relation to the onward selling of non standard vehicle, especially if you withhold said information at the time of contract of sale. Admit it is a non standard vehicle, and just watch the value drop at trade in time.


Hope that helps.


Mooresey: I have not replied to your questions, simply because whilst offering you advice, I opened my post by asking you just one question, and you replied thus
[quote] If I rev the bajesus out of the car ..............[/quote]

Nothing personal you understand, I just reckon I can respond to other posters concerns, and yield better responses from them. It's all down to how much time is available and how best to invest that time for the benefit of others. :rolleyes:
catch
[quote name='Daryll' timestamp='1298015635' post='114695']

My 09 1.6tdci costs me £30 a year to tax, because of the low emissions, so I'm saving £120 a year just on tax, as well as saving on fuel costs as I'm getting 45-50 mpg, instead of 30.

To me, that outweighs the £100-£150 cost of a dpf additive top-up every 3 years.

... thats as long as the DPF behaves and doesn't get clogged.!!

I do about 7-8k miles a year so its going to take me about 5 years to get to 75K, (cars now done 39k), so even the £1000 service is probably paid for.
[/quote]

Totally agree Dayrll, it can and does stack up for the vast majority of diesel owners. When I advise people to beware of buying diesels with circa 60 to 100 k on the clock. I'm only trying to make them aware of the possibility of expensive repair bills in the near future. And more so if if they themselves do so little an annual mileage that the costs/savings just don't stack up. I'm not anti diesels or DPF's per-say.

You have a newish motor and as you say are banking savings on an annual basis. I have done a spread sheet which depending on annual mileage input, and taking into consideration tax rates, evaluates the savings per year between a Mk2.5 1.6 petrol and a Mk2.5 1.6 TDCi and with your mileage input at 7,500 and using official urban cycle figures respectively. Your savings per year in total are £531.

Or you can look at it another way, lets assume you coming in at day one,on year one of a six year replacement and top up maintenance cycle. Lets assume one Top Up and reset in year three as per maintenance schedule, and the DPF replacement and top up + reset in year six as per maintenance schedule Total cost circa [not definitive] of £850 at a dealer. £850 divide by 6 equals £142 [rounded up] £531 - £142 = £389 per annum nett saving.......just got to keep your fingers crossed the Dual Mass Flywheel behaves its self :D and your quids in.

On 15k miles per annum the savings flood in £937 - £142 = £795 per annum.

And to be honest because renewal will be advised long before the actual expected failure time of the DPF. It is fair to assume there is a 20 percent failure cushion built into that maintenance schedule. Meaning getting another 15k plus out of you DPF. Then the annual allocated DPF maintenance costs drop to £106 per annum on 7.5k per annum mileage. Which equals a nett saving of £425 per annum. Because the life cycle of the DPF is extended to eight years from six at 90k miles failure time.
Mooresey
Catch, I do apologize about my use of the English language as such!!! How about this?

If I increase the revs to 3.5k and continue maintaining this for approximately 15 - 20 minutes would this burn off the clogged soot that has accumulated in the DPF filter?
catch
[quote name='Mooresey' timestamp='1298129918' post='114899']
Catch, I do apologize about my use of the English language as such!!! How about this?

If I increase the revs to 3.5k and continue maintaining this for approximately 15 - 20 minutes would this burn off the clogged soot that has accumulated in the DPF filter?
[/quote]

Are you in "limp home" ?

For the sake of this post,I will assume you are and as such this is your problem. And as you said you have had the Eloys additive topped up, your engine should have been in the position of doing a passive regeneration. It has obviously failed to do that, and gone into "limp home" mode. So your problem will be you need to raise the temperature in the DPF to aid soot particle burn off, but unfortunately limp home mode is stopping you doing this.

So it looks like you will have to take it to a Main Dealer who will undertake a "Forced Regeneration" this will no doubt be facilitated by them tinkering [for want of a better word] with the engine management program. But like I say as your clock is recording mileage nearer 100K than the 75K scheduled DPF replacement. It is more than likely that the DPF is in actual fact beyond redemption, it's stuffed. Meaning you may be better saving the £228* dealer charge [* see linked to thread] Forced Regeneration costs, and instead put that money towards a replacement Filter.

Look I reckon forced regenerations will work on say a 4 year old filter that blocks because the 37K additive top up was not undertaken. Or a diesel that only ever plods around town, never getting a good blow though bit of driving every 300 miles or so, and as such does not undertake a full passive regeneration cycle. So a Dealer then does a forced regen plus a top up and alls well. But like I say you have plenty of additive, and I doubt your a slow coach when it comes to driving. So to me it only leaves the explanation that your filter is well past it's sell by date, is foooooooked.

And in all honesty I think you need to bite the bullet and have the DPF replaced, to solve you problems. Have you read [url="http://www.fordownersclub.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=13690&st=60"][color="#0000FF"][b]this DPF thread[/b][/color][/url] started by hawker? Well worth a read from beginning to end, as I reckon with input from others with the same problem it answers all your "what if I try this " sort of questions. As your not the first, nor will you be the last trying to find a low cost solution to a dead DPF. He had a new DPF replaced by an independent, and as you have had the additive already topped up. All you will then need is a dealer reset done, how much can they straight face charge for that £30/40.
Mooresey
Ok thanks for your time Catch, I did think that it was foooooked and have come to the conclusion that i will need a new one. I have been looking around on the net and the price going is about 270ish. That plus fitting I reckon on the mean side of 500 for a new and fitted one.

I have had a look at the thread started by Hawker earlier and going from that I thought it was knackered!!!

Thanks all the same, so its going to have to sit idle for a few months now :angry: oh well


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