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Satanspants
Hello - Could I have some help/advice please?

I have a 56 Ford Focus 1.6TDCi which I bought 18 months ago with 62K on the clock, I had a Ford main dealer service done at 75K (inc. additive for fuel tank) now I am up to 83K (I regularly drive round the M25 to Slough) the only thing I have not replaced is the DPF, looking on Google the advice seems to be unless you have an issue this is not necessary.

Yesterday (& Friday) I was driving locally when the car acted like it had stalled, all the warning lights came on the dash and the car lost almost all power (limp mode) when I restarted the car later it was fine, I took it to a local (friendly) garage who put a code reader on the car, but there was not any codes to download. They advised me to take it to Fords if it does it again, however my local Ford main dealer charge 86.00+VAT just to check the codes - which I know there are not any.

Has anyone encountered this and knows what it good be? - I don't want to risk the M25 if my car suddenly does the same thing again, in rush hour it would be a guaranteed pile up!
Satanspants
Sorry to bump this - but I really could do with some advice, I have looked through this forum and also done some research via Google, I suspect it is a mechanical rather than electronic issue (because of the lack of codes) but there does seem to a more than a few things that could cause this. :(
jeebowhite
OK, first of all the codes you can see on the trip computer are only half the story, you may well need a diag to see other codes built up in the memory.

Secondly, whichever fools on the internet say that you dont need to replace the DPF until theres a fault, on this particular model and year, are idiots :) This is meant to be replaced at 75000 Miles as a matter of course. The fact that the car goes into limp home would suggest that the car has detected a fault, potentially too much back pressure being caused by a blocked DPF.

The best thing you can do is take your car out in third gear down the motorway, get it high up the rev range and leave it there, you may notice some smoke, this is normal, you are trying to do a forced regen, however you will still need to get the car into the garage.

I would suggest...

Do a basic service replace oil, air and fuel filters, check the quality of the oil, may be worth replacing that too sounds irrelevant, but a filter can cause blockages if its in a poor condition, and can cause flow problems, possibly throwing your car into limp home...

... Check all fluids, make sure they appear the right colour, if anything appears dirty that probably wont help, baring in mind any one sensor could set the car into limp home mode it could be anything not necessarily related to the engine directly.

... Definately throw your car into third and leave it there on a motorway, that way you will at least get the exhaust up to temperature, that should help to burn off and get loose some of the cack in the exhaust. - for safety reasons - dont do this on the M25 if you can avoid it, if it is pressure related, you could end up in limp home mode again (worst case scenario)

Try this if no one else can suggest anything else, try it then let us know how it goes.
Satanspants
Thanks for the advice - I will do as you say and get it to do a forced regen.

I will also give it a service as well, as you say best to cover all bases, check fluids etc.

As for the DPF I will have to try and find somewhere in Essex other than Ford's to replace it, I cannot justify the £1000 plus bill they charge for this, I know this part of owning a diesel Focus but it still hurts!

If you or someone else knows or could recommend a garage that could a perform a DPF replacement I would appreciate a pointer...

Thanks again...
bottletree
Satanspants(lol great name by the way), I was recently thinking of changing my 1.6 tdci because of the DPF. A friend suggested i bite the bullet and pay the cost of the new DPF and i will have no more major costs hopefully. I have heard this particular garage cleans out DPF'S and other garages can get rid altogether. There are no 2 ways about this I'm afraid. Get Ford to replace it. Get it done with a guarantee and with the correct computer software.I know it sounds horrendous the costs, but Ford made a massive boo boo with this thing.
jeebowhite
Or, review my thread on removing the DPF, and make your own call as to whether you want to full out get it pulled out by an alternate company :)

Thread located... http://www.fordownersclub.com/forums/topic/18241-dpf-removal/page__p__110629__hl__%2Bremove+%2Bfilter__fromsearch__1#entry110629

I truely hope that you were caught out by the DPF problem, as I was, as opposed to being made aware of the cost, and being misled by others (i.e. dealers!) lol

Either replace it with Ford, or get it removed by another company. I could have had mine removed, and bypassed for a third of what Ford wanted to replace. In the end I swapped the Focus for a Kia Cee'd petrol. Havent looked back, but I was struggling to decide wether or not to just get the damn thing removed...

... My investigation with the DfT is what threw me slightly away from it...


If nothing else my DPF removal thread makes interesting reading!
Satanspants
Jesus! - Talk about a minefield, I thought I had done my homework on this, out of all the companies mentioned on the DPF Removal thread only one of them still offers the service - seeing as it is technically illegal I dont think I will be doing that..

Seems I might have to do some saving if I cannot find an alternate to the money grabbing Ford dealer option.

Such a shame as this has been the most reliable and all round nicest car I have owned - obviously comes at a price! :(
cuke
Hi, well whether, or whether not, the dpf does need replacing, Ford have made a less of a 'boo boo' with their dpf then other manufacturers. Mazda 6's on failed regens will throw diesel fuel into the sump causing a hydraulic lock with the resulting blown engine. Unfortunantly there is no simple solution for having to have a dpf. You cannot remove it, as suggested elsewhere in this thread, because the new MOT regs coming in 1/12 will mean the car will not pass. We have to have them, whether you like it or not, they remove carcinogens, thus do something positive.
Personally I'd make sure it really is the dpf before replacing it, if it is then I'd have a go at replacing it myself.
Chris
jeebowhite
Cuke, I agree and disagree with you. The emissions tests are based on tighter "tolerances" than they currently are, no one will take the exhaust apart to confirm that the DPF filter is still present/original. However I agree that the carcinogens may be detectable, but I cant see every MOT station in the UK paying to upgrade their hardware to detect the new traces that are required to be... As long as the tuning of the vehicle is done correctly AND can actually keep the emissions to how they are now, then you could technically get away with it... Technically...

On the other hand after all my investigations into the DPF, I did in fact decide against it also, however I have made the decision, when I am to purchase my next car (unlikely to be for a while!) If I get diesel - any minor ounce of maintenance and its going to be the petrol equivelant, I will not be buying another cack DPF filter like Ford offered on these Foci' - the new model - well - time will tell how many posts are present on the forum complaining of the new CDPF.

On a plus note SP, you could technically buy a none Ford DPF and get it fitted yourself, cant guarantee the performance, or any affects it would have with the fluid used, so you would have to do the best you can to get a close match - on the plus side you could still save up to 2/3s of what Ford would charge.
bottletree
Lets hope the price of replacing the DPF in a few years time comes down in price.I think the price at the moment is a disgrace, rip off and a shambles. Disgusted with Ford about this.
cuke
Hi, is not the presence of a dpf physically obvious, thus the new mot legisation will be just a visual one. The problem with the particulates from a diesel engine are that they can pass through brick walls. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diesel_exhaust thus should we be removing these filters? As I have previously said, the implemtation that Ford has chosen for the mk4 mondeo is virtually maintenance free whilst the one fitted to the Mk3 Foci appears to be even more sophisticated in it's diagnostic ability, if the dash read outs are to be believed, taken from the manual:

Starting the engine
Message Action
Message indicator
Drive to clean exhaust amber SeeDieselparticulatefilter(DPF) (page 128).
filter check handbook
Exhaust filter full amber SeeDieselparticulatefilter(DPF) (page 128).
service now
Engine malfunction amber SeeDieselparticulatefilter(DPF) (page 128).

Chris
artscot79
[quote name='cuke' timestamp='1309465883' post='134167']
Hi, is not the presence of a dpf physically obvious, thus the new mot legisation will be just a visual one. The problem with the particulates from a diesel engine are that they can pass through brick walls. [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diesel_exhaust"]http://en.wikipedia..../Diesel_exhaust[/url] thus should we be removing these filters? As I have previously said, the implemtation that Ford has chosen for the mk4 mondeo is virtually maintenance free whilst the one fitted to the Mk3 Foci appears to be even more sophisticated in it's diagnostic ability, if the dash read outs are to be believed, taken from the manual:

Starting the engine
Message Action
Message indicator
Drive to clean exhaust amber SeeDieselparticulatefilter(DPF) (page 128).
filter check handbook
Exhaust filter full amber SeeDieselparticulatefilter(DPF) (page 128).
service now
Engine malfunction amber SeeDieselparticulatefilter(DPF) (page 128).

Chris
[/quote]

mot stations have the software to detect if the dpf is there as part of the test the car will be hot enough to begin regen mode. dpfs are a pain to all there are people with renaults having to disconnect the car battery as the dpf starts regenerating as they get home and switch the car off causing the engine fan to run for up to half an hour ford state in there brochures that newer diesels are not suitable for short trip stop start driving and actually tell you to take a 20 mile trip down the motorway all dpfs are failing long before they should and yes its illegal to remove and the test station gets a printout before the mot of what to check the dpf being one my mate has an mot station
jeebowhite
Learn something new everyday! and I was advised that (and have seen that) the DPF is hidden behind a heat sheild, so without taking it apart, you cannot physically tell by looking at the car that the filter is or is not present, without taking the heatshield off, which is not going to be done by the MOT team.

However some "bodge" repairs of the DPF mean that some drill through the DPF Filter and also the heat shielf - much more obvious!

As for the particulates and brick walls, we are talking about high concentrations of these particulates, driving down the road is not going to kill everyone behind brick walls, I personally am of the opinion that if the 1.8 did not require a DPF, and the 2.0 did not require a DPF, the 1.6 could have done without it as well, thus at the same time, unless they are going to run the VIN through a system to confirm wether or not the VIN did or did not have a DPF at production, and check wether present or not.

I'm certainly not arguing, and agree that the fact its illegal (unbeknown to me at the time I started that investigation!) meant that it seemed a feasible option, I just dont understand why the same diesel fuel will be put through an engine with either 1600,1800 or 2000CC, and in the smaller of those engines it would dispose of more carcinogens than the exact same combustion process in a slightly larger engine where the DPF was optional...
cuke
Hi, I'm not arguing either, just stating we might as well get used to them because, at the moment, they are here to stay. I was assuming, having never actually looked at a filter, there would an obvious sign of the device, like that of the cat. It seems that this is incorrect assumption. Although it does seem that any sign of how the filter is removed is dependant on the method used. If it is done correctly and professionally then there should be no sign of any tampering, either physical, or through the software.
This learning process is what forums are for.... :D
Chris
jeebowhite
Mores the pity the damned items are a nuisance espcially at 1000 a shot!

I did like driving my TDCI focus, but the DPF is the one real bugbare that really caused the final trade in... Aside the fact it was the runt of the litter I still liked it!

I still fail to understand why Ford release three engines, and one is mandatory, one doesnt need it at all, and one was optional... Well Done Ford!
cuke
Hi, I guess you'll chose a little more wisely next time. Thing is they are a 'technology' that's been dapted to our every day use. However I am sure Ford are getting a handle on it, certainly they have done better than other manufacturers efforts.
Chris
bottletree
What i don't understand is that the vehicle tax for my 1.6 tdci with DPF is 95 a year. That is pretty high considering the pollution factor is negligible. On the last M.O.T. the emissions could not read anything due to them being so low. So why the bloody high tax then? :angry:
Next diesel i get will come with the DPF not needing renewed.
jeebowhite
I agree Cuke, I will choose more carefully, in my very naive young state at purchasing diesel all I heard was "Diesel = good for pockets" - so I thought go for it...

... Then I joined this forum for one reason or another at the time, and was then advised of the DPF... the rest they say is history, I learned a lesson, and my wallet came close to tears, with my new car, I spent a good few months on the Kia forum to try and get a handle on any potential problems I was walking into - needless to say previous investigation into a car is certainly a must! - that is a lesson hard learned!

BT - its the DfT's budget - unfortunately it has been cut somewhat, and they need some way to fund the free bar at the annual doo...

I really dont understand it either, but Tax is based on CO2 emissions primarily, and I agree, how does one with such low CO2 come into it, however I think it also comes under Carbon Monoxide emissions as well as other gasses, and I genuinely think that soot is also a factor that they consider. Anything that leaves the combustion cycle and isnt made into something good to help the world is classed as an emission, and its all taken on board...

... I have said a million times in my short life and I shall say it again - I hate the tax man :)
cuke
Hi, well diesels have moved on since then, alot it seems. Perhaps you missed my post where I've stated my own Ford has a virtually maintenance free dpf, only requires a 10-20min blast every month, requires no additives, and, at the last count on the talkfords forum, they appear to be lasting well over 100k miles. I agree with you on CO2 tax levels though, why should I, who does about 4.5k a year, have to pay the same car tax as someone who might do tens of thousands in the same year producing massive amounts of CO2 compared to me. It is all unfair, but then, like anything, we have to live with it. I really hope you enjoy your Kia, my next car will be a petrol but not because of there being anything wrong with diesels, it actually has diesel technology, the only reason is that it has the best bang for the bucks...
Chris
jeebowhite
I agree entirely, and I wonder if they maybe put all their effort into the mondeo DPF and then the Focus they just bought a batch job from the 99P store for profit...

And I am quite enjoying my new car, I believe its almost three months trouble free motoring!
Satanspants
Blast! - After a couple of weeks and a few nice long trips with no problems my Focus has gone into full sulk mode now, I am now waiting for a mobile mechanic (he was recommended by a neighbor) to come and check what faults show up, at least now I will know once and for all what the exact problem is.

I suspect there will be whistling through teeth! :(
RGould
Bit old this post now, but did you resolve the issue? I've had similar issues before and it was the fuel filter. Had two of them now with the problem presenting itself a second time. Ford dealer blamed "unclean" supermarket fuel!
Satanspants
[quote name='RGould' timestamp='1327679687' post='163468']
Bit old this post now, but did you resolve the issue? I've had similar issues before and it was the fuel filter. Had two of them now with the problem presenting itself a second time. Ford dealer blamed "unclean" supermarket fuel!
[/quote]

Yes I did - I had this in Fords so many times it was ridiculous, they ended up telling the ECU that I had a new DPF and they topped up the Additive for it - However this did not solve the issue then they said it was the instrument cluster and they loaded up a newer version of software for the instrument cluster saying I would need a new instrument cluster if it did not solve the issue - which it did not.

My car was actually unusable for over a month, randomly starting sometimes and stopping, eventually I tapped the top of the binacle (by accident!) and the car sprang into life, I was then recommended to take my instrument cluster out and send it to a (brilliant) company called BBA Reman they ran some tests found some issues and fixed my instrument cluster.

It was a bit of a faf to get it out (beware the hidden clips - top of instrument cluster!) but they where helpful, friendly and solved my problem the best thing was I arranged it via an Ebay sale and it cost me £125 rather than the £600 Ford's wanted!

Hope this helps!


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