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phil19gti
I was wondering if anyone could offer me some advice - on our 1.6 Zetec we have recently bought, we've noticed a leak on the underside of the gearbox. It's on the main joint on the bottom of the box, almost like a seal has worn.

Can anyone offer any advice on what it could be? Are they prone to leak here? The car's done 98,000 miles but seems like it's been well looked after.

I've taken it back to the garage once as it's still inside it's month warranty and they cleaned it all down but it's started to appear again now, but not as bad.

Thanks.
catch
[quote name='phil19gti' timestamp='1311589669' post='137251']
I was wondering if anyone could offer me some advice - on our 1.6 Zetec we have recently bought, we've noticed a leak on the underside of the gearbox. It's on the main joint on the bottom of the box, almost like a seal has worn.

Can anyone offer any advice on what it could be? Are they prone to leak here? The car's done 98,000 miles but seems like it's been well looked after.

I've taken it back to the garage once as it's still inside it's month warranty and they cleaned it all down but it's started to appear again now, but not as bad.

Thanks.
[/quote]


Under consumer law, you have 6 months in which you can take it back to the garage / dealer if it has a fault or problem that was not pointed out to you [buy the garage / dealer] at the point of sale. So don't let them fob you off with a months warranty, of course if they pointed the leak out to you prior to you buying it, then you have no comeback. Consumer Law states in the first six months, the onus is on the garage to prove the fault did not exist when they sold it to you, not the other way around.

And if they try and bullshlt you, just reply, well we will have to see what the local Trading Standards Office has to say. Then see their reaction.

Welcome to the forum.

See the link in my sig below ....Know Your Rights When Buying from A Dealer
phil19gti
[quote name='catch' timestamp='1311590479' post='137253']
Under consumer law, you have 6 months in which you can take it back to the garage / dealer if it has a fault or problem that was not pointed out to you [buy the garage / dealer] at the point of sale. So don't let them fob you off with a months warranty, of course if they pointed the leak out to you prior to you buying it, then you have no comeback. Consumer Law states in the first six months, the onus is on the garage to prove the fault did not exist when they sold it to you, not the other way around.

And if they try and bullshlt you, just reply, well we will have to see what the local Trading Standards Office has to say. Then see their reaction.

Welcome to the forum.

See the link in my sig below ....Know Your Rights When Buying from A Dealer
[/quote]

Thanks for that. It wasn't pointed out to me at the point of sale. The warranty states that if any work is required on the car within the first month then I'd be responsible for the labour charges - is this true?
jeebowhite
You have to be careful here, the 6 month rule is primarily on new products. I dont think used cars are covered so extensively by the 6 months return if beggered policy.

A warranty repair is just that, a repair under a warranty offered by the responsible party, if it states in their Terms and Conditions that you must pay, unfortunately that is the case, however if it was never pointed out to you, you can argue that point.

You could also threaten to return the goods as not fit for purpose, and see how much they pipe up then!

http://webarchive.nationalarchives.gov.uk/+/berr.gov.uk/whatwedo/consumers/fact-sheets/page38311.html#Q1Whatisaninherentfault
catch
[quote name='phil19gti' timestamp='1311594649' post='137263']
The warranty states that if any work is required on the car within the first month then I'd be responsible for the labour charges - is this true?
[/quote]

They can state what they want in their terms and conditions of their warranty, but it don't make it legal. They are dealers, traders call them what you will, and as such they are governed by consumer law.

But lets be honest here, you like the vast majority of people are ignorant of their rights under the "Sale of Goods Act" [well you were up to now] And they the dealers rely on that fact, now there is no law against them taking advantage of such ignorance. It would be like making ignorance a criminal offence. :rolleyes:
jeebowhite
oops... duplicate post.
johnH
i think we all need a pocket catch for those hard times in the dealership :lol:
btmaldon
The problem does sound like it is likely to be the crankshaft seal. Unfortunately on the most expensive side of the engine to get repaired. Therefore I suggest you do what the others are suggesting, and get the dealer to sort it.
phil19gti
[quote name='btmaldon' timestamp='1311598073' post='137277']
The problem does sound like it is likely to be the crankshaft seal. Unfortunately on the most expensive side of the engine to get repaired. Therefore I suggest you do what the others are suggesting, and get the dealer to sort it.
[/quote]

That's my worry is that it's something serious, and if we let the "warranty" expire, we'll end up with a bigger bill.
jeebowhite
Just call them up and let them know your taking it back in, sooner you get it done the better! call them up and if they try to charge you can argue it over the phone, and if they continue to be defensive, tell them the next time you see them you will be leaving the keys and taking your money back.

these guys will not like you to do that, as the V5 will have another owner on it, makes it more difficult to shift!
phil19gti
Quick update - I took it back to the garage who have got the car today. He told me when they had it last week they had it on the ramp with the engine running ad their was no leak, so they were surprised to see it leaking again. He then mentioned maybe the bolts need re-torquing.

To be honest I don't get the impression that they want to look any further than cleaning it and leaving it at that. If any seals or gaskets need replacing, I don't think they'll do it, and when I get the car back later, I expect it to be leaking again by the end of the week.

I'm a bit stuck as I can't force them to do carry any work out and it's a bit of a hassle to keep taking the car over there. I can only think if it does leak again, going to an independant gearbox specialist and getting them to assess it. If they said it needs major work doing to it, I'd then have to contact Trading Standards I suppose.

One more thing I found out last night is that there was an advisory on the MOT that the garage put on the car the day I bought it stating "oil leak". When we collected the car, they said to me there wasn't any advisories.
jeebowhite
They outright lied to you, which wont go in their favour when it comes to trading standards... the fact is you just have to decide wether or not you want to keep the car or get shot!

How old is/was the car when you first took it back to them? as long as you made them aware of the fault within four weeks, and they didnt resolve it, and if it doesnt get "resolved" within their "warranty" period then the fact is they are still obliged to resolve the issue.

Good luck and we look forward to helping you get this sorted once and for all!
phil19gti
[quote name='jeebowhite' timestamp='1311666980' post='137355']
They outright lied to you, which wont go in their favour when it comes to trading standards... the fact is you just have to decide wether or not you want to keep the car or get shot!

How old is/was the car when you first took it back to them? as long as you made them aware of the fault within four weeks, and they didnt resolve it, and if it doesnt get "resolved" within their "warranty" period then the fact is they are still obliged to resolve the issue.

Good luck and we look forward to helping you get this sorted once and for all!
[/quote]

The car's a 2003 1.6 Focus. When we first took it back to them we'd had the car 3 1/2 weeks. The official one month warranty lasts until tomorrow (27th July). Whether it's classed as one month or four working weeks, we still notified them about the problem within that period.
catch
[quote name='phil19gti' timestamp='1311663685' post='137348']
Quick update - I took it back to the garage who have got the car today. He told me when they had it last week they had it on the ramp with the engine running ad their was no leak, so they were surprised to see it leaking again. He then mentioned maybe the bolts need re-torquing.[/quote]

Surprised my ar@se, last time they had it in they run a rag around the leak....and bugger me it's still leaking. Well who would have thought that

[quote]To be honest I don't get the impression that they want to look any further than cleaning it and leaving it at that.[/quote]

Exactly.

You see the problem is THEY SEE YOU AS A SUCKER, so they have now moved on to Phase Two. That is the "Piss the sucker off until they eventually go away" phase.

Now you will get no satisfaction from that garage until the see you not as a SUCKER but a person who knows their rights. Behind your back as you walk to the car they snigger to themselves MUPPET

I have furnished you with all the tools to make them see the error of their ways. The tools being The Sale Of Goods Act, threaten them with Trading Standard. That fails, then contact the latter..................I bet you mentioned neither last time you spoke to them, right?


[quote]One more thing I found out last night is that there was an advisory on the MOT that the garage put on the car the day I bought it stating "oil leak". When we collected the car, they said to me there wasn't any advisories.
[/quote]

JEEZ you have them by the curlies
phil19gti
I haven't mentioned anything regarding Trading Standards or Consumer Law as yet, I'm saving that maybe for tonight when I collect the car.

You're spot on regarding phase 2, I am pissed off and started to contemplate just getting it fixed elsewhere because of the hassle, but now reading the advice on here, I've changed my opinion. They sold us a car that had an oil leak that needs fixing.

Regarding the print-out of any MOT advisories, do they have to supply this if one is issued?
artscot79
it could be the clutch master cylinder that way it will only start leaking when using the clutch leaving it running wont show anything check the clutch brake fluid level and insist they get it fixed and check it so many times ive seen them stick mastic on it so the leak appears fixed for a few weeks
catch
I'm not sure if they have to furnish the advisories by law. But it is issued at the same time as the MOT certificate, being an attachment to same. So it is deemed by the Authorities to be part of the process of alerting the owner of the vehicle or their agents, [in this case the dealer who sold you the car] of any defects. Defects that though they do not make the vehicle non legal in MOT terms, they are defects that the Authorities recommend need seeing to.

By deliberately detaching the advisory from the MOT, indicates the dealer was intent on keeping you ignorant of those defects. Trust me your Local Trading Standards office is on the side of people who have been conned. They will lap your story up, they love putting the screws on crooks.

Now your dealer will know this unless he is completely stupid, indeed if he is stupid then he needs educating, so go in there and educate him.

Now because your not used to taking people on like him, your adrenaline will be up, but try and remain calm, keep your speech calm and slow. Don't blurt it out what you have to say "tommy gun" fashion, he needs to understand what your saying to him. Just explain the position as you see it in regard to The Sale Of Goods Act. Remind them they deliberately omitted to inform you of the oil leak at point of sale. Then say to them, they can chose to be either proactive or reactive in regard to your complaint. Nine times out of ten they will ask you what you mean by that. You see that is what you want, the opportunity to sat the following........... Being proactive, it dealing with your valid complaint to your satisfaction. Reactive is dealing with your valid complaint via the local Trading Standards Office.

No more being pissed about, one way or another both you and the dealer will know which course of action is going to be taken as a result of his answer to the above.
phil19gti
[quote name='catch' timestamp='1311669942' post='137366']
I'm not sure if they have to furnish the advisories by law. But it is issued at the same time as the MOT certificate, being an attachment to same. So it is deemed by the Authorities to be part of the process of alerting the owner of the vehicle or their agents, [in this case the dealer who sold you the car] of any defects. Defects that though they do not make the vehicle non legal in MOT terms, they are defects that the Authorities recommend need seeing to.

By deliberately detaching the advisory from the MOT, indicates the dealer was intent on keeping you ignorant of those defects. Trust me your Local Trading Standards office is on the side of people who have been conned. They will lap your story up, they love putting the screws on crooks.

Now your dealer will know this unless he is completely stupid, indeed if he is stupid then he needs educating, so go in there and educate him.

Now because your not used to taking people on like him on, your adrenaline will be up, but try and remain calm, keep your speech calm and slow. Don't blurt it out what you have to say "tommy gun" fashion, he needs to understand what your saying to him. Just explain the position as you see it in regard to The Sale Of Goods Act. Remind them they deliberately omitted to inform you of the oil leak at point of sale. Then say to them, they can chose to be either proactive or reactive in regard to your complaint. Nine times out of ten they will ask you what you mean by that. You see that is what you want, the opportunity to sat the following........... Being proactive, it dealing with your valid complaint to your satisfaction. Reactive is dealing with your valid complaint via the local Trading Standards Office.
[/quote]

What do you recommend me doing if, as I expect, I go and collect the car later tonight and if they say they've sorted it by tightening a few bolts, ie. No gaskets/seals changed, no new gearbox, etc etc.

Should I come home and check it over the next few days?

Should I arrange to take it to an independant garage for an assessment?
catch
The garage is not to be trusted so do as necessary. I reckon because you did not do as I said first time round they still see you as a Muppet, and therefore may attempt to just bodge it. I don't know I have not seen where the leak is, and I could be wrong about them attempting a bodge on it.

If you can take some photos of the problem, do so. If you search some of my posts on fixing stuff you will see I use loads of photos. That way peeps can fully understand what the problem is.

Example: [url="http://www.fordownersclub.com/forums/topic/16039-water-in-plug-ports-issue-with-pictures/page__p__100601__fromsearch__1#entry100601"]Water in Plug Ports[/url]
phil19gti
[quote name='catch' timestamp='1311671030' post='137369']
The garage is not to be trusted so do as necessary. I reckon because you did not do as I said first time round they still see you as a Muppet, and therefore may attempt to just bodge it. I don't know I have not seen where the leak is, and I could be wrong about them attempting a bodge on it.

If you can take some photos of the problem, do so. If you search some of my posts on fixing stuff you will see I use loads of photos. That way peeps can fully understand what the problem is.
[/quote]

I'll get some photos tonight and over the next few days (assuming it'll continue to leak). I'll also ask them what the procedure is if it continues to leak after this second visit.
phil19gti
It's in a similar place to here (someone else's photo):
catch
Yes well you can see why they don't want to spend time on putting that right. So the question is now asked....Knowing the car had this leak, and the fixing of it was down to you, would you have bought it? NO is the answer I reckon.

And I reckon the Trading Standards Office will come to the same conclusion. And as such be instrumental in seeing to it that you can return the vehicle for a full refund, if that's what you want to do. Of course you could opt to get it fixed at the dealers expense if both parties can agree that, it's entirely up to you.
phil19gti
[quote name='catch' timestamp='1311672604' post='137378']
Yes well you can see why they don't want to spend time on putting that right. So the question is now asked....Knowing the car had this leak, and the fixing of it was down to you, would you have bought it? NO is the answer I reckon.

And I reckon the Trading Standards Office will come to the same conclusion. And as such be instrumental in seeing to it that you can return the vehicle for a full refund, if that's what you want to do. Of course you could opt to get it fixed at the dealers expense if both parties can agree that, it's entirely up to you.
[/quote]

Would much rather keep the car - we just want it fixed.
jeebowhite
In that case, as suggested go in and speak to them on collecting the car. ask them for a copy of the advisory sheet from the MOT, they should provide you with this as you have requested.

In the meantime, read up on your rights, and also, drop an email to trading standards now (or consumer direct I believe are the folk who need to be made aware nowadays). Get it in now, advise them of this joke and spell out to trading standards the fact they issued you a one month warranty, and the fault, advise the deadlines and to when you visited the garage, make them aware you did so within the first four weeks. Advise you are not confident in their abilities, and that you believe on recieving the car back, it will not be satisfactorily resolved. get them to confirm your rights, and do so as soon as possible.

For example, should your local "friendly" dealer, try to wriggle out, you can whip out an email chain between you and consumer direct and advise them you are very much aware of your rights. Advise that should you run into further issues with this vehicle, you will be bringing it back immediately and since the defect was reported within the warranty period you still require a good level of service to comply with your rights, otherwise, if the vehicle has not been repaired to your satisfactory standards, you will be requesting a full refund from them. They will be much more out of pocket, and thus you have the opportunity to work with them on getting a resolution.

If you dont trust the car 100% by now, and the dealer, I would suggest, seriously consider looking for another vehicle, and preferably another dealer.

Some may see it as being a bit premature to contact Consumer Direct, but you should do so as soon as possible. better to get the advice of those in the know, and get it reported. at least then you dont leave it too late to get the dealer to sort things correctly, I would personally prefer to learn from consumer direct and "waste" their time because you do not need to raise a complaint, than to be stuck with the dealer and not knowing fully your rights.

I did have issues with swiftcover.com for my car insurance, I followed this route, and its amazing, once they recieved a copy of my correspondance from CD they suddenly sprung to life, got their a*ses into gear and my query dealt with in the timely manner it should have been done in the first place.


...Who knew that complaining could do so much good!

remember, your not buying from this dealer to make friends, your their to get your car to your standards, and to not waste your money.
phil19gti
I've just spoken to Consumer Rights who've recorded it all and told me to talk to the garage and quote The Sale Of Goods Act. I should be expecting to collect it later so I'll see what happens then.
jeebowhite
Go to the website catch recommended, and print it off, highligh the content that is relevant to the case, and hand it over if needs be. if you have any problems at all, call the garage and advise that at the time you want to collect the car, you would like to see it on the ramps and see what they have done tor esolve it, and any old / replaced parts (as well as the MOT advisory sheet!)
phil19gti
Spoke to a mechanic who said that he's test drove the car today to get the oil hot, he then put it up on a ramp and could see oil coming from the casing for fifth gear. He removed the casing, cleaned it and replaced it. He's then repeated the test drive and apparently there's now no leaks.

Off to pick it up at 7:00pm so we'll see later.

Sounds better, but I'm not counting my chickens quite yet.
phil19gti
Well I picked the car up from the garage last night and touch wood it seems ok. No evidence of any leaks last night or this morning, so we'll see. I'm not going to pursue the Consumer Rights complaint any more at the moment, but if it does start to leak again, then all of the brilliant advice I've been given in this thread will come in very useful.

Thanks for everyone's help.
catch
[quote name='phil19gti' timestamp='1311694035' post='137409']
Spoke to a mechanic who said that he's test drove the car today to get the oil hot, he then put it up on a ramp and could see oil coming from the casing for fifth gear. He removed the casing, cleaned it and replaced it. He's then repeated the test drive and apparently there's now no leaks.
[/quote]

Well it must be 36 years since I last had a gearbox and drive shaft on the kitchen worktop [much to the wife's disgust] And the quote "[i]casing for the fifth gear[/i]" has me totally bamboozled!

Now gearboxes may have changed somewhat in that time, but I would imagine that the layout is basically the same. All the gear wheels in there together, being lubricated by the gear oil contained within the gear box. Now if there was a leak at the point where the drive shaft connects to the gearbox, I would have thought it was a drain gearbox oil, separate both components, renew gasket/seal, re assemble and re oil the gearbox.

Now I may be totally wrong in what I have just said, as I stopped "getting down and dirty" a long time ago. So maybe some of our more enthusiastic younger members eager to lay hands and socket sets on the undersides of the engine bay, could add their thoughts on the matter.

Edit: Or maybe they just prized the gearbox/drive shaft apart and applied some silicone grease to it :D [ joke reference to that thread I linked to]

And yes me being the cynic that I am, I would certainly keep my eye on it, and for a lot longer than a couple of days.
phil19gti
I read it on here, but obviously it doesn't mean it's 100% true:

http://forums.mg-rover.org/archive/index.php/t-391345.html
catch
[quote name='phil19gti' timestamp='1311758610' post='137483']
I read it on here, but obviously it doesn't mean it's 100% true:

http://forums.mg-rover.org/archive/index.php/t-391345.html
[/quote]

Well as the same term has cropped up from two different sources, it sounds correct.

I never "wing it" hence if I don't know for certain, I always qualify my comments by saying "I could be wrong" And in this instance I was right in saying that because I was wrong :D

So lets hope it is fixed, and you can now get on and enjoy your new motor.
phil19gti
Hopefully that will happen, but we will see.

If it does cause problems again, I'm getting it assessed by an independant gearbox specialist and whatever they say, i will be going directly back to the garage armed with your advice.
phil19gti
Bump back to the top.

Update - We received the car back and it seemed ok until Wednesday this week I noticed oil on the drive, so I had a look under the car and it was leaking from the black plastic cover that protects the gear selector on the front of the gearbox. I took the cover off, and inside there I found an oily rag. It appears that the garage have stuffed a rag in there to soak the oil up, and now the rag is full of oil it's started to leak onto the drive. I couldn't believe it.

I rang consumer advice yesterday who have said to get a quote to repair it, and then send the garage a letter stating what's gone on and how much it will cost to put right. They said that the garage are within their rights to repair it themselves, to which I said I don't want the garage touching the car again. So she said to put in the letter that I don't trust them to carry out the repair. She said it might end up in a small claims court to which I'd be happy to pursue.

So I'm off to Mr Clutch tomorrow for a diagnosis and then we'll be doing a letter.


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