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Full Version: Who's Fault Is It (Clutch Change)?
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johnS
Hello,
Just got back from a drive and ive noticed the clutch is slipping once again. I only got it replaced less than a month ago and it's slipping again, must've lasted less than 1000 miles. Ive just driven normally in that time, even rev matching.
Now I beleive it to be that the flywheel was not replaced/resurfaced when changing the clutch previously. Ive only herd this from the internet though. They never mentioned anything about the flyhweel at all before/after the clutch change.
So who's fault is it? It surely must be the garages fault. Where do I go from here?
Preee
There should be a guarantee on the parts , i would head straight back there
johnS
[quote name='Preee' timestamp='1326580463' post='161312']
There should be a guarantee on the parts , i would head straight back there
[/quote]


thanks. thats what I will be doing.


How could it have worn so quickly thpugh?
fordpartsman
it may not be worn, it could be that you have a hydraulic slave cylinder (the bit that operates the clutch) and it is leaking fluid onto the friction plate and thus lubricating a surface that does not want it.

NB flywheel do not need matching and very rarely need replacing, unless you own a car with a dual mass flywheel but we won't get into that now as its a big farce
artscot79
when i had mine done the slave cylinder was faulty and had popped its seal causing clutch slip and the fluid to go down took it in to ford and they replaced everything again under wqarranty so ide take it back and have it looked at ive never had a flywheel done on any car
johnS
thanks everyone. But how would I go about it. Would it not be the garages fault that did it for breaking the slave cylinder? I beleive the slave cylinder is called a "concentric slave cylinder" and I know they put in a new one of these
artscot79
i simply took mine back they stripped it down and found the slave cylinderwhich they replaced as part of the clutch kit had been faulty they replaced the whole lot and charged the manufacturer for it as it was there part that was faulty.

i noticed oil dripping off the gearbox bell housing take it back to the garage mate it will be gauranteed parts and workmanship
johnS
[quote name='artscot79' timestamp='1326633375' post='161360']
i simply took mine back they stripped it down and found the slave cylinderwhich they replaced as part of the clutch kit had been faulty they replaced the whole lot and charged the manufacturer for it as it was there part that was faulty.

i noticed oil dripping off the gearbox bell housing take it back to the garage mate it will be gauranteed parts and workmanship
[/quote]

thanks mate. I have noticed the breaks are less responsive than they were before I took it in. The breaks and clutch share the same reservoir dont they?
froggy
yea they do mate ,ive been fitting clutchs for over 13 years and it sounds like faulty clutch or carm unit (slave cylinder) leaking and cotaminating the clutch but normaly you would notice the clutch feeling spongy but either way it will be under warrantee
johnS
[quote name='froggy' timestamp='1326643356' post='161387']
yea they do mate ,ive been fitting clutchs for over 13 years and it sounds like faulty clutch or carm unit (slave cylinder) leaking and cotaminating the clutch but normaly you would notice the clutch feeling spongy but either way it will be under warrantee
[/quote]

It was not Fords I took it to to have the clutch done, though, i'm a bit worried about that. Also it only slips now and again but I know it's there and trying to move off is pretty hard, if they test drive it tommoriow and they say nothings wrong what can I do?
froggy
you will soon know if its slipping ,just get the engine upto normal temp then drive down the road and while accelerating put your foot on the foot brake if the clutch is slipping it will at that time ,it might smell a bit but if it comes to a holt and the engine stalls then the clutch is ok and if they say its ok then take to where you can get a secound opion mate
johnS
[quote name='froggy' timestamp='1326653960' post='161456']
you will soon know if its slipping ,just get the engine upto normal temp then drive down the road and while accelerating put your foot on the foot brake if the clutch is slipping it will at that time ,it might smell a bit but if it comes to a holt and the engine stalls then the clutch is ok and if they say its ok then take to where you can get a secound opion mate
[/quote]

yeah I know, i've figured out what a slipping clutch looks like lol. It's just proving it to them
artscot79
if it was done at a garage even if it wasnt ford the parts and labour are still under a warranty and its down to them to rectify the fault you shouldnt have to prove it to be honest check the brake and clutch fluid see if its down
johnS
[quote name='artscot79' timestamp='1326654878' post='161470']
if it was done at a garage even if it wasnt ford the parts and labour are still under a warranty and its down to them to rectify the fault you shouldnt have to prove it to be honest check the brake and clutch fluid see if its down
[/quote]

hello,

sorry I think the break fluid is clear so I cant see it. Either that or the fluid is so low I cant actually see it at all
artscot79
you should be able to see it just in its container if it was that low you would have a warning light on
johnS
[quote name='artscot79' timestamp='1326661116' post='161503']
you should be able to see it just in its container if it was that low you would have a warning light on
[/quote]

hello,

cant check till tommorow which is when I take it back. I have a strong suspicion that they will say it's fine
johnS
As I said they would, they have said everything is fine, even when I managed to get it to slip when he was with me. They said they could take it out under waranty and get the cost from the manufacturer but if they find the clutch is fine I have to pay for it. They said I could leave it since I had a 1 year waranty anyway. What should I do?
artscot79
its up to you but mine got worse mate is there fluid loss? at the end of the day it shouldnt be slipping if it was me ide have it stripped and if i had to pay for it but ide be arguing that the clutch is slipping so something is amiss somewhere.

if its the slave cylinder it will get worse and brake fluid will start to dissapear quickly have a look at the bell housing for fluid where the housing and gearbox join and check the brake fluid but if it was me ide have it taken in
johnS
[quote name='artscot79' timestamp='1326718439' post='161576']
its up to you but mine got worse mate is there fluid loss? at the end of the day it shouldnt be slipping if it was me ide have it stripped and if i had to pay for it but ide be arguing that the clutch is slipping so something is amiss somewhere.

if its the slave cylinder it will get worse and brake fluid will start to dissapear quickly have a look at the bell housing for fluid where the housing and gearbox join and check the brake fluid but if it was me ide have it taken in
[/quote]

hi mate I will check in a bit. I'm a bit worried about them saying the clutch is fine when they take it out and i'd have to pay a full £450 again for it, i'll wait for it to get worse which it inevitably will.
johnS
[quote name='johnS' timestamp='1326720827' post='161591']
hi mate I will check in a bit. I'm a bit worried about them saying the clutch is fine when they take it out and i'd have to pay a full £450 again for it, i'll wait for it to get worse which it inevitably will.
[/quote]

ok ive just checked the brake fluid and it's really hard to see but from what I guess is the fluid level line it's full
artscot79
£450 for a clutch kit you must be jolking i paid £250 for a clutch kit inc labour from ford that was pressure plate cluth plate slave cylinder and brake/clutch fluid renewal its only a 4 hour job labour wise i suppose its really up to you but ide have the slipping looked into ask them to bleed the clutch as it may be some trapped air in the hydraulics and see from there
johnS
[quote name='artscot79' timestamp='1326725586' post='161602']
£450 for a clutch kit you must be jolking i paid £250 for a clutch kit inc labour from ford that was pressure plate cluth plate slave cylinder and brake/clutch fluid renewal its only a 4 hour job labour wise i suppose its really up to you but ide have the slipping looked into ask them to bleed the clutch as it may be some trapped air in the hydraulics and see from there
[/quote]

thanks, Fords here was about the same so went to the smaller garage anyway because it was more convient. Could it be trapped air causing it?
Stoney871
Really sounds like trapped air or contaminated fluid to me.
I'd bleed the system right down and start with fresh fluid.
mjt
How would trapped air or contaminated fluid cause clutch slip? It seems much more likely the slave cylinder has leaked fluid over the friction surfaces.
johnS
Theres no evidence of leaking though which suggests trapped air. And tge breaks also feel less effective as well
stef123
The clutch draws fluid from the resevoir above the brakes, meaning that even if the clutch hydraulics develop a fault or leak it shouldn't affect the brakes.
johnS
Then what could it possibly be???? My head hurts :(
mjt
It wouldn't need much fluid to contaminate the friction surfaces enough to cause slip, so it's quite possible that you wouldn't notice a drop in fluid level or any drips from the clutch housing.
johnS
[quote name='mjt' timestamp='1326881190' post='161860']
It wouldn't need much fluid to contaminate the friction surfaces enough to cause slip, so it's quite possible that you wouldn't notice a drop in fluid level or any drips from the clutch housing.
[/quote]

Say this happened. Would the biting point be affected? And I tried one of Fords clutch tests (putting the handbrake on, selecting 4th gear, releasing clutch slowly while trying to keep the rpm the same and it passed. Not sure if I did it correctly though.
mjt
Hydraulic clutches are, by their nature, self-adjusting. Under normal circumstances the bite point should not change. If you had a slight seepage, enough to make it slip but not enough to significantly affect the fluid level, I would not expect it to change. If the bite point comes earlier, i.e. with the pedal closer to the floor, that could indicate either air in the system or a problem with the piston seals in the master or slave cylinder.

Basically if the bite point is about right but the clutch is slipping I would suspect fluid contamination from the slave. The only other explanation I can think of would be that the diaphagm spring is not applying enough pressure but unless it's broken that would probably have to mean that something wasn't assembled correctly.

I haven't come across the clutch test you mentioned but as described it sounds like a recipe for an overheated clutch.
johnS
[quote name='mjt' timestamp='1326907778' post='161932']
Hydraulic clutches are, by their nature, self-adjusting. Under normal circumstances the bite point should not change. If you had a slight seepage, enough to make it slip but not enough to significantly affect the fluid level, I would not expect it to change. If the bite point comes earlier, i.e. with the pedal closer to the floor, that could indicate either air in the system or a problem with the piston seals in the master or slave cylinder.

Basically if the bite point is about right but the clutch is slipping I would suspect fluid contamination from the slave. The only other explanation I can think of would be that the diaphagm spring is not applying enough pressure but unless it's broken that would probably have to mean that something wasn't assembled correctly.

I haven't come across the clutch test you mentioned but as described it sounds like a recipe for an overheated clutch.
[/quote]


thanks for the info. I was thinking that if the clutch has somehow worn so badly allready that the pedal could have run out of adjustment quickly and therefore you'd notice it in the pedal.

I'm not even sure what could be described as the bitiing point. Is that the point where it's only just starting to move offor higher up than that where it accelerates faster? If it's the first then i'm pretty sure it's biting at about half pedal travel, maybe 60%

I've also tried labouring it heavily, for example, 27mph up quite a steep hill in 4th gear with my foot close to the floor on the accelerator pedal. I've only managed to get it to slip quite high in the rev range, for example around 3000rpm in 4th gear.
mjt
The bite point is where you just start to feel it pulling and it sounds as if that's ok. As it's been recently replaced you shouldn't be able to make the clutch slip at all, as long as you're not riding it (that is, driving with your foot resting on the pedal).

Even if you've been holding the car on the clutch at uphill junctions or traffic lights, which is a seriously bad habit that will cause premature wear, it wouldn't ruin a new clutch in 1000 miles.

I don't know the characteristics of your engine but I'm guessing that 3000rpm would probably be about where it develops maximum torque, so if a clutch was going to slip this is where it would be most likely to happen.
johnS
[quote name='mjt' timestamp='1326924459' post='162017']
The bite point is where you just start to feel it pulling and it sounds as if that's ok. As it's been recently replaced you shouldn't be able to make the clutch slip at all, as long as you're not riding it (that is, driving with your foot resting on the pedal).

Even if you've been holding the car on the clutch at uphill junctions or traffic lights, which is a seriously bad habit that will cause premature wear, it wouldn't ruin a new clutch in 1000 miles.

I don't know the characteristics of your engine but I'm guessing that 3000rpm would probably be about where it develops maximum torque, so if a clutch was going to slip this is where it would be most likely to happen.
[/quote]

Thanks, yeah I never hold the car on the clutch except for about 1 second at most before i push it down and use the break. I do have a habit of resting my foot on the pedal but I dont think I push it down enough for it to engage as I have tried this and it requires quite a bit of force to do it.

I guess I will leave it for a while and see if the problem gets worse
mjt
[quote name='johnS' timestamp='1326930139' post='162044'] I do have a habit of resting my foot on the pedal but I dont think I push it down enough for it to engage as I have tried this and it requires quite a bit of force to do it.[/quote]You should try to break that habit. Although it may not contribute to the clutch slip it means there's hydraulic pressure in the system all the time and also the release bearing is continuously spinning which can lead to premature wear and noise.
johnS
yeah ive been told thats why it was slipping when i drove with the mechanic but i dont actually rest my foot too hard on the pedal, its just incase i need to slow down quickly i do that. But yes your right im trying to stop resting my foot on it.
johnS
Well i've now just noticed my screen washers do not work once agan after Fords charging me £45 to do about a month ago. If I go back can I expect to have it redone for free?

Cars are great, I love cars
johnS
just noticed it is definatly slipping. What do I do? It fails fords clutch tests. I take it to the garage and they say its bdcause your foot on the pedal but i know its not because of that.

Do I walk down to the garage with a printed peice of paper of fords clutch tests instructions and say try this? It will definatly prove that the clutch is faulty for whatrver reason
jeebowhite
You can try to get them to acknowledge the failure, or you could pay to get a report done by Ford.

In the event of suspicion of a faulty purchase, you have 6 months to reject the goods assumed faulty, otheriwse you sometimes need evidence from a third party to prove that the fault is present, if the fault is written and proven in a report, you have more ground to argue a replacement is required. I would also contact Trading Standards / Consumer Focus so that they can advise you further
johnS
[quote name='jeebowhite' timestamp='1328021995' post='164112']
You can try to get them to acknowledge the failure, or you could pay to get a report done by Ford.

In the event of suspicion of a faulty purchase, you have 6 months to reject the goods assumed faulty, otheriwse you sometimes need evidence from a third party to prove that the fault is present, if the fault is written and proven in a report, you have more ground to argue a replacement is required. I would also contact Trading Standards / Consumer Focus so that they can advise you further
[/quote]

thanks.
The garage that did it I dont think are trying to wriggle out of it so I dont think trading standards yet. I guess I will have to leave it longer for the symptoms become more pronounced
artscot79
ide take it to ford and explain youre concerns have them test it and make a report
johnS
[quote name='artscot79' timestamp='1328036032' post='164153']
ide take it to ford and explain youre concerns have them test it and make a report
[/quote]

thanks
jeebowhite
Dont need to threaten with Trading Standards just yet, however TS or Consumer Focus, can advise you on your rights, and how you can prove that its a faulty clutch...
johnS
I guess I will have to. At the moment its still not that easy to get it to slip but holding it in 5th gear and the flooring the accelerator pedal will make the rpm counter jump a little bit.

So I guess I will leave it that bit longer so as I actually have some evidence of it slipping.

One more question. If I was to go to the garage and say its slipping now and they test drive it and find it is actually slipping, how would it go on from there? What would happen if they accuse me of making it that way?(When I didnt)

Similarly, if it was slipping but they didnt accept it was how would I go on from there?
jeebowhite
If they acknowledge the slip, you can tell them that they have installed the clutch and it seems to be another faulty unit. unless your odometer has gone up thousands of miles since then you cant really be blamed for it, unless you have slipped and shredded it!

If they say they cannot reproduce the error, then you will need to get an independant report to show that there is a fault, most times it means that the clutch will be removed, taken apart, and then a report written on it, sometimes it can cost a fair whack, but if its found to be faulty in a report, your entitled to a new part under guarantee and the cost reimbursing for your report...
johnS
[quote name='jeebowhite' timestamp='1328194665' post='164380']
If they acknowledge the slip, you can tell them that they have installed the clutch and it seems to be another faulty unit. unless your odometer has gone up thousands of miles since then you cant really be blamed for it, unless you have slipped and shredded it!

If they say they cannot reproduce the error, then you will need to get an independant report to show that there is a fault, most times it means that the clutch will be removed, taken apart, and then a report written on it, sometimes it can cost a fair whack, but if its found to be faulty in a report, your entitled to a new part under guarantee and the cost reimbursing for your report...
[/quote]

sorry for late reply

i cant do anything about it at the moment, i will have to leave it a few months or untill it gets much worse. If I get a full report done and they say they arent paying for it then i will loose like another £300~ I cant risk that
johnS
let me add a few more symptoms ive just been thinking about, they may not be related.

-Sometimes when starting out from cold and moving off, push the clutch pedal down, try to move out of first gear, I feel a abnormal resistance once only, then it's fine. This used to happen after the new clutch install, never before, and after a few weeks it doesnt happen anymore.

-When I go over a speed hump in 1st gear, the rpm counter jump (about +/- 100 rpm max) in time with the sort of bouncing movement of the bump, but I reckon it should stay stable, if i'm out of gear the rpms will stay normal, no jumping
johnS
theres no leaking, I just checked underneath and theres no drops? What else could it be?


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