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bigjonbournemouth
hi guys

just had a quote from two different garages to replace the clutch on my focus and both have come back different.

One garage has said that they would just replace the clutch and thats it, this is the cheaper option so am liking this muchly!!!

Second garage has said that the dual mass fly wheel would need changing as weel so i should go for a solid wheel conversion kit, however this is obviously more money to pay out but if is needed obviously has to be done!!

so dilema! whos right?
Stoney871
The dual mass flywheel may not be popular but is fitted for a reason.
It's designed to make the engine power come through smoother and reduce engine vibration.
I have heard bad things about solid flywheel conversions, a dig of the internet will give you some facts.
As to just having the clutch plates done rather than a full kit? It depends on whether there is wear on the DMF or not and if you're experiencing starting problems or excess vibration.
I'm sure others here will have some more experience and be able to advise you further.
Stoney871
This site for example talks itself into a sale by saying a standard flywheel can be fitted but then talks itself back out of the sale again by stating other problems the conversion is likely to cause-

http://www.newclutch.co.uk/index_files/Page389.htm

talksy
As an owner of a 1.8 tdci, I ran across some worrying posts on the internet which seemed to suggest it was common for the DMF to go at around 85k. All of them suggested clutch replacement at the same time, and as one of the posts said above, replacing to the solid fly wheel was mainly regarded as a bad idea due to vibrations etc. Found lots of posts saying the clutch gets a blue wearing mark. Average replacement costs seemed to be between £750 amd £1350 from what I could see.

Luckily, mine is under 30k, and I have had no signs of this problem (although one poster said his tdci went at 30k!). I found some tips on another site about how to minimise the wear and tear on these DMFs, main tips were the usuals:[list]
[*]don't ride clutch
[*]don't do burn outs or wheel spins
[*]don't sit in traffic with clutch pedal down, put it in n, and use handbrake
[*]don't leave in gear when parked
[*]don't pull away in second
[*]don't buy a ford - how insulting -_-
[/list]
I know this doesn't help the OP, but hopefully it will help you with your replacement parts. :rolleyes:
Mike77
If your not doing the job yourself, its quite costly to take out the gearbox to replace the clutch. Personally I'd bite the bullet and replace the DMF, as it probably will need replacing, as if you don't, then you find it does need changing, its the expense AGAIN, of removing the gearbox. Source the bits yourself through eBay, and just have the garage fit them.
Stoney871
[quote name='Mike77' timestamp='1353689856' post='218042']
If your not doing the job yourself, its quite costly to take out the gearbox to replace the clutch. Personally I'd bite the bullet and replace the DMF, as it probably will need replacing, as if you don't, then you find it does need changing, its the expense AGAIN, of removing the gearbox. Source the bits yourself through eBay, and just have the garage fit them.
[/quote]
Good solid advice indeed.
Better to take one hit rather than two.
If in doubt do everything in one area for total peace of mind.
salsheikh
get the garage to buy the bits needed. my previous car needed a clutch and dmf and i had it replaced by them. 2 weeks later the clutch went and as they bought the kit they replaced it. they said had i bought the parts i would have had to pay for the replacement.
JCB
As I just found out through experience, the cheapest options not always best or cheapest. I may be wrong, but sitting a new clutch against an old flywheel doesn't seem the best idea. Might put extra stress on an already temperamental part and then as mike said bill will end up doubling.

If your getting it done at a garage, they wont guarantee any parts not bought by themselves, so if god forbid, it fails again they wont do a thing.

I got a quote for the DMF, clutch and slave cylinder for around £900 at a reputable 'back street' garage, the solid kit was only about £80 less.
bigjonbournemouth
so by the sounds of things replace the dual mass fly wheel and clutch and avoid the conversion kits..... i have managed to find a flywheel and clutch kit for £360 from europarts so i think this is the way forward! :P
talksy
[quote name='salsheikh' timestamp='1353694896' post='218057']
get the garage to buy the bits needed. my previous car needed a clutch and dmf and i had it replaced by them. 2 weeks later the clutch went and as they bought the kit they replaced it. they said had i bought the parts i would have had to pay for the replacement.
[/quote]

Can't agree with this more. I needed a bearing doing on my old Astra. I sourced it from Ebay for a fraction of the price. My local garage had the car for a whole afternoon, when I got back to collect it, they said it was not working right but they had put it in anyway. My ABS had stopped working which is an MOT fail, I had to pay to have it taken out again and all the work doing again plus the price of a genuine part. I would be careful here as clutches are much harder to install then bearings.
Mike77
Agree in principal with what ppl are saying here about letting the garage get the parts. I fitted my own so if something went wrong it would be down to myself to sort it. BUT the parts I used were OEM equipment, and I can't see how a garage could argue if you are using a genuine part that you have sourced yourself, because that is more than likely what they would have bought for the work anyway.
Pitmonster
My own DMF is starting to go (see here : [url="http://www.fordownersclub.com/forums/topic/37937-mk2-focus-18-tdci-possible-dual-mass-flywheel-replacement/"]http://www.fordowner...el-replacement/[/url]) and the garage has recommended that I get the clutch done at the same time. The two parts mate with each other, and if one is starting to go then the other will probably follow soon after.

The job is not cheap, but Labour is a massive part of the total cost, and you certainly don't want to pay twice for work in the same area. Yes it hurts (oh boy, do I know it hurts!), but it's better to get the lot done at once.

If you just change the clutch now, you may have to do the flywheel anyway in the near future - and that's TWO lots of labour charges. Better to do the job properly, and do it once.

To quote from the website that Stoney linked to:
[quote][i][b]In our experience and as a rule of thumb, the dual mass flywheel of diesel engined vehicles should always be replaced at the same time as the clutch[/b], on petrol engined cars more often than not it can be re-used, obviously there are exceptions to the rule, eg Mini Cooper S and Golf Turbos.

Valeo have created a range of flywheel conversion kits for some of the most popular models that replace the Dual Mass Flywheel with a Conventional single mass flywheel and a sprung clutch plate, which means that subsequent clutch replacements are much cheaper which makes them ideal for Taxi’s, vans and other high mileage vehicles. [b]The drawbacks are, an increased level of noise and vibration in comparison to a dual mass setup and increased wear on the gearbox syncromesh as they now have to cope with the increased weight of the sprung clutch plate[/b][/i].[/quote]

So maybe a soild flywheel might make future clutch changes cheaper, but how long are you going to keep your car and how many clutches do you think you'll go through in the future before you sell it?
If you were a taxi driver, and planning on doing 500k before changing the car then maybe I could understand. I'm not and so I'll stick with the DMF. As the site says, it may wear the gearbox synchromesh - and you're just replacing one problem with another.
flying clutchman
I ALWAYS change the DMF on any diesel vehicles when changing the clutch. Very often the clutch outlasts the flywheel. As to the issue of buying your own parts - DONT! The garage fitting the parts cannot take responsibilty for any parts you supply, and will therefore charge labour for refitting. The parts being o.e. is irrelevant, even o.e. parts can be defective. It's very unlikely that you are going to be able to buy genuine LUK, Sachs or Valeo (the o.e suppliers) parts cheaper than your garage. DMFs are hugely discounted to the trade and a garage will probably give you a lower quote for labour if they supply and fit.I'm not sure why people are being quoted £900 for the job, £600 is more like it. Obviously NOT at a main dealers!
talksy
[quote name='bigjonbournemouth' timestamp='1353615237' post='217941']
hi guys

just had a quote from two different garages to replace the clutch on my focus and both have come back different.

One garage has said that they would just replace the clutch and thats it, this is the cheaper option so am liking this muchly!!!

Second garage has said that the dual mass fly wheel would need changing as weel so i should go for a solid wheel conversion kit, however this is obviously more money to pay out but if is needed obviously has to be done!!

so dilema! whos right?
[/quote]
Just out of interest, what mileage is your Focus, so I know when to start worrying. :)
Pitmonster
My Focus is 82k and the symptoms are starting
salsheikh
Dave, what were the symptoms that made you decide about getting this changed?

Mine will make a wierd noise (like crunching the gears) first thing in the morning and will be fine after that.
Pitmonster
[quote name='salsheikh' timestamp='1353954525' post='218465']
Dave, what were the symptoms that made you decide about getting this changed?

Mine will make a wierd noise (like crunching the gears) first thing in the morning and will be fine after that.
[/quote]

My symptom is a noise at the top half of the clutch pedal travel.
The noise can best be described as a fast "tick-tick-tick-tick" noise.
It's quite quiet, even light conversation when the radio is off will drown it out.
But once you hear it, you start to listen for it - and that means you ALWAYS hear it !

But it's not so much what the sound is, but when it happens.

When the clutch is all the way up, there is no sound. This includes driving along in gear, and when in neutral.
But when you start to press the clutch down you hear the noise.

It happens at the top of the clutch travel, and continues until the pedal is pressed halfway down. Then as you continue to press the pedal all the way down, the noise goes away. When the clutch is all the way down there is no noise.
Then as you bring the clutch back up, the same thing happens - nothing at the bottom, starting halfway up, and continuing to the top end of the clutch pedal travel. Then when you are back at the top the noise goes away.
Then when your foot is off the clutch (either in neutral or driving in gear) there is no noise.

I have had no problems at with starting the car, no problems with the clutch slipping, no problems with clutch operation, and no problems with changing gear.

To the best of my knowledge, the noise happens at all times - when the engine is cold or hot, when the weather outside is freezing or warm.

I took it into Ford, and they diagnosed the DMF. They also said it's best to do the clutch and the clutch slave cylinder at the same time. (The site that Stoney linked to on page one of this thread also said the same thing). Other research (including the seperate thread on this site) seem to back up this diagnosis.

My car is 6 years old and has done 82k
salsheikh
Deffo dmf mate. Symptoms same as my old leon. Gonna wipe out your xmas budget sadly!
talksy
[quote name='salsheikh' timestamp='1354007208' post='218566']
Deffo dmf mate. Symptoms same as my old leon. Gonna wipe out your xmas budget sadly!
[/quote]

I bought my diesel expecting that it would last substantially longer than a petrol and be more economic. I wasn't aware of these clutch/dmf issues at the time of purchase. Whilst the car is more economical, large repairs like this wipe away any savings you are likely to make on fuel. What worries me is that 82k ([i]in pitmonster's example[/i]) is not that high when you consider the mileage some people do. Presumably, it would need another costly change at around 140k? Expensive business if you intend to look after and keep your car for some time.
Mike77
Mine only needed replacing on 111k, and that was down to personal choice, there were symptoms there, and could well of lasted a lot longer, but my OCD wouldn't allow it lol. FSH, it was on its original DMF & Clutch.
talksy
[quote name='Mike77' timestamp='1354013485' post='218572']
Mine only needed replacing on 111k, and that was down to personal choice, there were symptoms there, and could well of lasted a lot longer, but my OCD wouldn't allow it lol. FSH, it was on its original DMF & Clutch.
[/quote]

That is reassuring, maybe pitmonster got his used and the previous owner had given it a hammering.
I am very OCD and if I heard the slightest noise, it would drive me mad. No noises so far on my car.
Pitmonster
I did get mine used, but it had a full (Ford Maine dealer) service history, and all servicing had been done at the correct age/mileage intervals.

This suggests that the first owner took care of the car, although obviously driving style is a different matter
talksy
[quote name='Pitmonster' timestamp='1354020482' post='218590']
I did get mine used, but it had a full (Ford Maine dealer) service history, and all servicing had been done at the correct age/mileage intervals.

This suggests that the first owner took care of the car, although obviously driving style is a different matter
[/quote] I am same as you with regards service history etc. Just goes to show how expensive cars can become. You mentioned that yours has started making the noises etc. How long will you leave it before you book it in?
Pitmonster
I was at Ford today (for an unrelated job) and the engineer said my DMF was about 10-20% worn.

This may not sound much, but he said that when it goes it pretty much explodes, and will take the crankcase sensor and starter motor with it. In fact he said the main reason cars with DMF problems won't start is because the crankcase sensor has been damaged

The people on the parts desk also said that Ford always put their parts up on 1st Jan, something to do with annual budgets. This may have been a bluff to get me to do the job though...

So I reckon I'll get it done before Christmas. I have a lot of long journeys to see family etc and its best to be done before then.
Aldoo
i have a tiny slip when 'flooring it' up hills on mine. thought it was clutch and got it priced up, but its actually getting better so its totally thrown me!
..but anyway, i got quotes at 3 independent garages for clutch and DMF all under 800! ..a lot, yes, but not what some people are saying
Pitmonster
Did that also include the clutch slave cylinder (which also incorporates the clutch release bearing)?
Did it also include VAT?

If so, that's sounds like a decent price from an independent garage.
Ford have just quoted me 1030 all inclusive.
Aldoo
its certainly VAT and fitting. i asked for clutch and DMF, i thought slave cylinder would be a part of doing the clutch though? Ill have to check i guess

but isnt 1030 good? 200ish extra for the fact its a proper ford garage seems alright?
matts1185
hi all just joined for this very topic, i went for the single mass in my opinion it was cheap 400 fitted but now its like a 1 litre. theres no torque at all it gets there eventually but you carnt feel any boost from the turbo. not sure if this is the flywheels fault or the garage that fitted it, thats why i came on here to see if other people with single flywheels had the same problem. from my experiance so far id stay with the DMF, gonna go do some more searching see if anyone else has had the same prob or if i have to look for what the garage cocked up, matt
Pitmonster
[quote name='Aldoo' timestamp='1354063198' post='218719']
but isnt 1030 good? 200ish extra for the fact its a proper ford garage seems alright?
[/quote]
It certainly does seem good (especially as they reduced it from 1290) so I will be going for this
talksy
[quote name='Pitmonster' timestamp='1354088131' post='218730']
It certainly does seem good (especially as they reduced it from £1290) so I will be going for this
[/quote]
£1030 from a main dealer sounds quite reasonable, maybe you could haggle them down further to £1000 make it a nice round number lol. - Out of interest, which dealer was it, for future reference.

I wonder if you will get any warranty on the part if you get it from a proper dealer. Also, whilst talking about warranties, for people who don't yet have the symptoms, is it worth taking out a warranty plan for your car? I never have so I don't know if things like this would be covered or not.
Pitmonster
Work done at a main dealer has a 12 month warranty, on both the parts and the workmanship.

Dealer is Polar Ford in Warrington, who have been extremely helpful and friendly. I have a Smart Plus service plan with them, which may account for the low price, although a service manager did say they were willing to price match
Pitmonster
Regarding 3rd party warranties, would they declare that a DMF is a 'wear and tear' thing and therefore not be covered?

Might be worth investigating before committing.
talksy
Well that was my concern with these 3rd party warranties. I have read a few online horror stories from some people who took out deluxe warranties which were supposed to cover almost everything - some of these policies costing almost £800, only to find certain things were not covered, and more often than not, the parts not covered were most costly to fix. Chances are quite high they will attribute a DMF to being normal wear and tear therefore not covered. But might be worth further investigation.

Thanks for the details on the garage - unfortunately it is nowhere near to me, however if I ever experience this problem, it is good to know of garages who charge reasonable sums and have a good track record. What is the Ford Smart Plus Service plan you describe? Is it some sort of annual servicing plan where you pay up front? I am assuming it is not a warranty?
When I got my focus, I took out the Ford Platinum Warranty. I got 3 years worth, however you are limited to only 12k per year - not very much at all for a diesel car tbh! If I go over 12k, then it rolls into the next year lol.
Pitmonster
The smart plus service plan is, as you say, an annual service plan where you pay up front. In fact you pay monthly, interest free.

There are two levels : normal and plus.
Both give you the next 4 services (parts and labour) plus MOTs for the life of the plan. They also collect and return the car, give it a clean, and you get free puncture repairs, free safety checks, and a 10% discount on parts for non-service jobs. (This may have been a factor in my reduced quote for the DMF)

The plus package includes a valet at each service (rather than a basic wash & vac), and Ford Assistance breakdown cover - which is carried out by the AA (by the AA patrols, in AA vans) and includes home start and Europe. That alone is worth over 100 a year

I pay about 22 a month for 3 years, which comes to 792.

To put that into context:
2 x minor service at 99 = 198
2 x major service at 200 = 400
4 x MOT at 40 = 160
4 yrs AA cover at 100 = 400
4 x mini-valet at 20 = 80
Total of all the above = 1238
A saving of over 400

Of course all parts are genuine Ford. In particular the engine oil is the correct Ford spec, which is crucial to the health of your turbo if you have a TDCi engine.
A good independent garage will of course also use the correct oil, but unfortunately this may not always be true.

And of course the Ford service stamps in your book could add a little to the value of the car when you come to sell

* note that the service prices I've used are for a main dealer, not an independent garage which could be cheaper

If you go to a ford dealer there will be signs up about the plans, and also details on the dealers website
Aldoo
isnt a warranty standard everywhere? ..the quotes iv got have a 12 month from an independent garage. (will that be work and part or one or the other? ..not really sure)
cheers
talksy
[quote name='Pitmonster' timestamp='1354102975' post='218748']
The smart plus service plan is, as you say, an annual service plan where you pay up front. In fact you pay monthly, interest free.

There are two levels : normal and plus.
Both give you the next 4 services (parts and labour) plus MOTs for the life of the plan. They also collect and return the car, give it a clean, and you get free puncture repairs, free safety checks, and a 10% discount on parts for non-service jobs. (This may have been a factor in my reduced quote for the DMF)

The plus package includes a valet at each service (rather than a basic wash & vac), and Ford Assistance breakdown cover - which is carried out by the AA (by the AA patrols, in AA vans) and includes home start and Europe. That alone is worth over £100 a year

I pay about £22 a month for 3 years, which comes to £792.

To put that into context:
2 x minor service at £99 = £198
2 x major service at £200 = £400
4 x MOT at £40 = £160
4 yrs AA cover at £100 = 400
4 x mini-valet at £20 = £80
Total of all the above = £1238
A saving of over £400

Of course all parts are genuine Ford. In particular the engine oil is the correct Ford spec, which is crucial to the health of your turbo if you have a TDCi engine.
A good independent garage will of course also use the correct oil, but unfortunately this may not always be true.

And of course the Ford service stamps in your book could add a little to the value of the car when you come to sell

* note that the service prices I've used are for a main dealer, not an independent garage which could be cheaper

If you go to a ford dealer there will be signs up about the plans, and also details on the dealers website
[/quote]

Wow, sounds like quite a good deal. I get RAC cover with my 3 year warranty, but obviously I have to pay for services etc. I might ask about this next time I am in.
:)
Pitmonster
Do the maths before you commit, and be sure it's right before you decide.

While it was the right deal for me, it may not be right for you - especially if you have a good local garage who you trust. That may ultimately be a cheaper option, or cost-neutral.

Also, if you already have breakdown cover elsewhere (eg with a credit card) then that reduces the potential savings you may make with the Ford plan.

I was already paying 100 a year for AA (and not getting home start) so that was an immediate saving for me, but there's no guarantee that this will apply to you.

Lastly, ring Ford and get a quote from them. Your annual mileage (and therefore how often your cars needs servicing) can affect the price they give you, as can the age/mileage/model of car.

Be sure it's right for you before you decide.
talksy
[quote name='Pitmonster' timestamp='1354201270' post='218937']
Do the maths before you commit, and be sure it's right before you decide.

While it was the right deal for me, it may not be right for you - especially if you have a good local garage who you trust. That may ultimately be a cheaper option, or cost-neutral.

Also, if you already have breakdown cover elsewhere (eg with a credit card) then that reduces the potential savings you may make with the Ford plan.

I was already paying £100 a year for AA (and not getting home start) so that was an immediate saving for me, but there's no guarantee that this will apply to you.

Lastly, ring Ford and get a quote from them. Your annual mileage (and therefore how often your cars needs servicing) can affect the price they give you, as can the age/mileage/model of car.

Be sure it's right for you before you decide.
[/quote]

Hi, thanks again. Maybe they could tailor a package for me. My service is not due until almost 12 months, so I have a while to work out the costs etc.
Thanks again :) very useful info.
flying clutchman
The 12 month warranty should be normal whoever does the job. The issue of Ford genuine parts is also a red herring. Ford do not make the clutches and flywheels. They are made by LUK, or sometimes Sachs or Valeo. (I think it depends where the car is built) Any garage should be able to source the parts through a trade wholesaler at a large discount, helping to keep the price down. Obviously the price of the DMF itself pushes up the price considerably, but only adds 15-30 mins to the fitting. On the issue of solid conversion kits, the performance should not be reduced. I suspect a turbo pipe's not been reconnected or something.
Stoney871
Very true on the parts.
Ford buy from the same place as other garages, the only difference is they glue a ford label to them and add 40% to their cost.


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