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Timty
Hi,

I have a can of Wynn's EGR valve cleaner for diesel engines. I have been reluctant to use it on my 1.8 tdci focus (2009 reg) as I'm not sure if it will do more harm than good.

Any crud that is loosened will be drawn into the cylinders to combust. Can that be harmful? Has anyone used such a product and would you recommend using same.

I'm hoping for a positive response as the EGR on this model is part of the intake manifold and not the easiest to remove and clean.

Thanks
TDCiST
sadly... i cannot give the positive response your after...

I did this, afetr noticing a lot of smoke form the back of the car, i manually cleaned the egr as much i could, then used the EGR Cleaner, this worked brilliantly for about 500miles before the EML came on and told me there was a fult with the EGR valve... a few hundred quid later saw a new EGR valve..
stef123
I would like to see a before and after egr valve cleaner as I doubt very much that it can remove very much. The only way to do it properly and without firing more crap into the engine is to remove the egr valve and manifold of required and clean them by hand.
Timty
Well, I sprayed a 200ml can of Wynn's EGR 3 cleaner into the air intake using 2 methods:[list=1]
[*]Straight into the inlet manifold. You couldn't possibly depress the nozzle on the can for more than 1 second as the pulverisation would be too severe. However, just 'jabbing' away at the spray nozzle is quite sufficient. I used half the can this way.
[*]Removed the air filter and sprayed the rest of the can directly into the turbo. You can be a bit more enthusiastic with the amount sprayed at a time this method.
[/list]
There was NO black smoke produced as I performed the above operations. Whether that's good or bad I'm not sure. I'm taking it as a good sign!

I think I will perform this operation at each service as suggested as a preventative measure. My journeys tend to be shortish urban ones. To be honest I'm sorry I bought this car. It's the first diesel I've owned but I'd much prefer a nice quiet petrol engine. As diesel engines go I'd say the 1.8tdci is fairly 'agricultural'.
TDCiST
it is, but also damn reliable!!
martyntdci
as tdcist says they are the most reliable of them all. when i took the car for a mot the week before xmas there was a 58plate titanium 1.6tdci, speaking to the tester he said turbo faliure at 58k ran with blown turbo, new turbo fitted, then the engine threw a rod out, so a 58plate with approx 58k new turbo and engine...... go go ford
TDCiST
[quote name='martyntdci' timestamp='1356951787' post='223589']
as tdcist says they are the most reliable of them all. when i took the car for a mot the week before xmas there was a 58plate titanium 1.6tdci, speaking to the tester he said turbo faliure at 58k ran with blown turbo, new turbo fitted, then the engine threw a rod out, so a 58plate with approx 58k new turbo and engine...... go go ford
[/quote]

Sounds like bad servicing... i believe ford say you need to replace the oil feed pipe at certain services, as these are prone to blocking up! thats the common fault, they block, turbo is starved of oil... and BANG!
Timty
I have another post up by the way, describing a problem I have where the car will misfire after about 1 hour of motorway journey, culminating with an 'Engine Management' error being displayed. At this point engine will idle but not respond to the accelerator. Switch off and on an all is well again. No codes are stored. My instinct is the EGR is sticky and not closing fast enough. I'm guessing that the cylinders are flooded with inert exhaust gases (hence misfire) etc.
Since using the EGR cleaner I took the car for a 150mile motorway spin. Much improved but not perfect. A misfire at 120 miles but no Engine Malfunction message. I intend to give the car a repeat dosage this weekend. What products have you been using and any success?
martyntdci
block it off and try that....
Timty
It is integrated with the inlet/exhaust manifolds and sounds like a right pain trying to remove it. Was onto a company locally that remove EGRs but they say this can't be done with this car for some reason.
martyntdci
block it off at the cooler. which when you look at your engine, its on the left hand corner behind the block. they can be taken off and cleaned but only if you have a fair few hours and a sunny day, and yes its in with the manifold etcc... like u mentioned
Timty
Thanks for that. I will investigate on Saturday during daylight. I rang the dealer today and he suggested bringing it to them as their diagnostic equipment could read 'deeper' than my OBD code reader. I can appreciate that this is true but unless the fault condition is on I think I'd be wasting money, what you think? He also mentioned that they had a few cars of this vintage (2009) where this condition arose and they changed the pick up pump in the tank, this seemed to solve the issue. However they had to wait until the problem got worse to be sure this pump was the cause. I'll keep ye informed!
FOCA
[quote name='Timty' timestamp='1357151309' post='224015']
Thanks for that. I will investigate on Saturday during daylight. I rang the dealer today and he suggested bringing it to them as their diagnostic equipment could read 'deeper' than my OBD code reader. I can appreciate that this is true but unless the fault condition is on I think I'd be wasting money, what you think? He also mentioned that they had a few cars of this vintage (2009) where this condition arose and they changed the pick up pump in the tank, this seemed to solve the issue. However they had to wait until the problem got worse to be sure this pump was the cause. I'll keep ye informed!
[/quote]

Yes - your OBD code reader does 99% of what a pro one does anyway - a garage will be happy to take your money off you

the lift pump on some ford deisels run "part time" / at high demand, so the car appears to run fine untill you accelerate hard/ go uphill etc if it is faulty, the EGR can be a source of problems and is best blocked IMO

As some other members have said, i am also a bit dubious about the effectiveness of the EGR cleaning fluid -

I picked up an ST-TDCI inlet manifold on ebay, it was supposed to have been cleaned but still had a thin coating of carbon (much less than some i have seen) I tried everything to get this off, soap and water, toothbrushes, de-greaser, degreaser and small stones (fish tank) with the ports taped up, shaking it like a cocktail-shaker - the degraser melted the adhesive on the tape and i ended up making a big mess and all this was only partly sucsessful -

So i took it down to a valeter, they sprayed it with foam then turned the high-pressure steam jetwash on it, in 3 minites it was cleaner than all the time i spent on it - when i got it home i noticed patrs of it still had carbon stuck to it, i took it back to the valeters, i asked them to get it spotlessly clean and i left it there a few days - when i finally picked it up it was mint


this was with concentrated foam that removes oil and grease off engines and a high-pressure steam gennie that can take the paint off cars if the nozzle is held too close -

so you can understand how i might be sceptical about "miracle cures" - there is something called terraclean that some claim works well (never tried it myself) - ultimately the EGR/ inlet manifold probably gas to be removed from the car to clean

I needed the manifold to be clean because it was to be modified (gas flowed/ oversize EGR delete sort of modified - not carbon wrap/ pretty lights (cosmetic) sort of modified)

With the EGR delete and the breather re-routed once it was clean it would stay clean (in theory - unless the turbo seals go!)
Timty
FOCA - thank you for a comprehensive reply. When you say 'the EGR can be a source of problems and is best blocked IMO' what does 'IMO' mean? I've been told by a specialist that the EGR can't be removed in software on this car. Thanks again to martyntdci for his instructions on where to block it physically.

Also, if the lift pump fails would it generate a code readable by an OBD reader?

Regarding EGR valves - how often are they deployed? For normal urban driving or even secondary road driving (averaging maybe 40mph) do the conditions arise for the valve to open or is it generally motorway / high demand driving that causes it to deploy?
FOCA
IMO is short for "In My Opinion"

The EGR can be deleted in software - Ford put it there, Ford could probably take it out - it may not be easy - it may be beyond most remappers' capabilities - it does not mean it is "impossible"


If you phisically block a Euro 3 EGR (solid, stainless stteel plate) it should cause no problems, the EML (engine management light) should not come on and the engine generally runs better

If you phisically block a Euro 4 (5) EGR (solid, stainless steel plate) it should cause no problems apart from the EML may come on, the engine should not go into "limp home" mode, but the EML light being on can "mask" other problems with the engine that would put the EML on

A blocked EGR cannot cause an MOT failure at present due to emmisions (diesel engines) as only the perticulates (smoke) is measured

There may be that a engine management light on can cause an MOT failure in the future, this can be reset with a suitable code reader

The EGR deployment differs from different engines, and even different Euro compliance levels (3,4,5 etc) early ones were "open" or "closed" later ones were motor driven with a positon sensor ("variable")

When they come on depends on how they are programmed - some mainly when the car was warming up, they may be set to "shut down" (not open) at full throttle/ heavy load, or only work at certain revs (you can usually tell when the EGR opens, the engine "misses"/ runs roughly, and there can be a change of exhaust note, or a "flat spot") often between 1500-2000rpm

On the earlier engines the EGR sustem was "stuck on" like an extra system, on the later cars it was more integrated, and more diffiult to disable/ remove or block (phisically and electronically)

Nevertheless, EGR systems are unnessesary/ not good on a diesel engine, on balance, better with it blocked/ disabled - in my opinion :rolleyes:
TDCiST
I'm sure RS Tuning can map out the EGR on this engine...
Timty
I am beginning to agree that EGR cleaner used with the valve in situ is probably useless. I borrowed a boroscope today and had a look inside the inlet manifold and it is quite dirty. Thanks for all the information and advice. I don't know whether the EGR is Euro3/4/5/ etc. but I will block it. I intend blocking it at that point just above and behind where the rubber hose connects to the inlet manifold (i'm referring here to the hose that I would have disconnected in order to spray cleaner into the manifold). Anyone know of a source for a plate to block this port and is there a gasket required? As an aside I must say I'm so happy this car doesn't have a DPF as well!

P.S. Having just discoverd how to do so, I've attached a photo of the point where I hope to block the EGR, can you confirm I'm correct with this please
martyntdci
unsure, i was told to block mine of there, and mentioned to you the same place. but as from last week mine has being blocked the other end of the pipe, when you look at the engine its on the right hand side behind the block, so ive cut of the cooler all together.... look at the cooler, the entry on the right, then follow that pipe down where it joins mine is now blocked there, with a home made 3.5mm galv plate. machined to the same fitment...... if you look on the bay they approx 3-4 quid, but everybody says it throws the eml light up, wich on mine it doesnt......
Timty
martyntdci - thank you very much for that clarification. Thinking about it, blocking the gases from ever entering the cooler sounds more logical. Fantastic if it doesn't bring on the eml light.
FOCA
[quote name='martyntdci' timestamp='1357496177' post='224804']
unsure, i was told to block mine of there, and mentioned to you the same place. but as from last week mine has being blocked the other end of the pipe, when you look at the engine its on the right hand side behind the block, so ive cut of the cooler all together.... look at the cooler, the entry on the right, then follow that pipe down where it joins mine is now blocked there, with a home made 3.5mm galv plate. machined to the same fitment...... if you look on the bay they approx 3-4 quid, but everybody says it throws the eml light up, wich on mine it doesnt......
[/quote]

Thats interesting - does the engine pick up any better?, theoretically blocking the EGR closer to the exhaust manifold should help the turbine spin up faster, less exhaust (heat) energy should be lost, less heat is transferred to the intake - the improvement may be small though

Ditching the junk (EGR pipe/ cooler) will increase reliability of cooling system (no cooler to split) and of course exhaust/ inlet and (now non- existant) EGR systems

the only disadvantage i can see is the cooler not only cooled the exhaust gasses before they reached the EGR valve, but also the heat from the exhaust manifold helps to heat the coolant before it goes to the heater matrix, so helping to maintain temps and helping to warm the engine coolant up quicker - again i dont know how significant this is - its a small cooler and probably does not heat the coolant that much - the cooler being connected is probably only an advantage in the winter and a disadvantage in the summer

I would be interseted to know if the engine seems to take longer to warm up?

Thanks in advance
Timty
Blanking plate ordered. To be safe I've ordered the one with the 10mm hole in it, but when more confident (hopefully!) will try the fully blanked plate. From what FOCA suggests, does it also imply the turbo will be running hotter for longer than intended with reduced bearing life etc?
FOCA
[quote name='Timty' timestamp='1357544042' post='224907']
Blanking plate ordered. To be safe I've ordered the one with the 10mm hole in it, but when more confident (hopefully!) will try the fully blanked plate. From what FOCA suggests, does it also imply the turbo will be running hotter for longer than intended with reduced bearing life etc?
[/quote]

Ive got to tell you the ones with the holes are a complete waste of time because -

1 - It cannot "fix" a faulty/ leaking/ sticking EGR valve or faulty EGR system - a solid one can

2 - the hole allows gasses through to cause flat spots etc and contaminate/ coke up the inlet manifold

3 - it completely negates the point of the blanking plate, might as well not bother

Best to fit a solid,(no holes to let gasses through) stanless steel (mild steel rusts, alloy can melt) blanking plate of a decent thickness (3+ mm) 5mm if you can get one

The turbo is lubricated by the engine oil - the boost is controlled buy the actuator - the turbo may spool up quicker but it is probably quite subtle (probably the engine will just feel a little bit sweeter/ stronger)

more peak boost is not produced, (it will be the same as before) because the actuator backs it off, if the peak boost is reached sooner, and the efficiency of the engine is increased (because the engine is running on clean air instead of exhaust fumes) it may pull a little bit better so you don't have to use quite so much throttle, - so there may be less stress on the turbo

i blanked my EGR valve years ago - i belive this has HELPED long term reliability

I also have some SERIOUS modifications - ive never blown a turbo or had any bad engine problems

(Overall blanking the EGR (with a solid plate, no holes) tends to make the engine more reliable)
Timty
[quote name='martyntdci' timestamp='1357496177' post='224804']
unsure, i was told to block mine of there, and mentioned to you the same place. but as from last week mine has being blocked the other end of the pipe, when you look at the engine its on the right hand side behind the block, so ive cut of the cooler all together.... look at the cooler, the entry on the right, then follow that pipe down where it joins mine is now blocked there, with a home made 3.5mm galv plate. machined to the same fitment...... if you look on the bay they approx 3-4 quid, but everybody says it throws the eml light up, wich on mine it doesnt......
[/quote]
Does your car have a Euro 4 EGR. My understanding is that a vacuum operated EGR is Euro 3 while motorised is Euro 4? The solid blanking plate should bring on the eml light on a Euro 4 .. as I understand it anyway. Did this happen with you?
lofty690
hi all , just wondering if any of you have had your tdci remapped , i was thinking if there is problems with your EGR because of fouling is it not over fuelling that causes this ~? i might try mine when i get the new engine fitted (cam-box failure) to try and reduce the fuel and give it more air .
stef123
[quote name='lofty690' timestamp='1360855391' post='235806']
hi all , just wondering if any of you have had your tdci remapped , i was thinking if there is problems with your EGR because of fouling is it not over fuelling that causes this ~? i might try mine when i get the new engine fitted (cam-box failure) to try and reduce the fuel and give it more air .
[/quote]

the EGR valve feeds exhaust gas back into the inlet side of the engine so naturally it will contain soot and will clog things up eventually

The only way you are really going to get more air into the engine (mind diesels are also free breathing) is to replace the standard air filter with a performance one and uprate the intercooler to one with a better flow
lofty690
ok alrite , so what about the remap ? has anyone remapped a tdci ?
Timty
Well, since I started this post my car flew through its first N.C.T. test (M.O.T. in Britain) with flying colours. The smoke test limit is 1.5 somethings per something or other and mine read 0.6. Today a work colleague's 2009 Mondel 1.8 TDCI failed at 5.5!! That said, I've got to go from Cork to Dublin tomorrow, a 160 mile motorway blast and I'm not confident the car will make it without dying (Misfire, Engine malfunction light on, engine idle rpm only, no throttle response, turn off, turn on and away we go again, no codes stored). I have also fitted the 'sort of blanking' plate i.e. the one with the 10mm hole. Is there anything worse than a car that you have no confidence in getting you from A to B and back again.
Anyway, in reply to Newbie I have little interest in re-mapping it, I'd be delighted if it would just stay running on what Mr. Ford gave it first day! Happy Valentine's Day to all .. and ok ... I wish the same to my 'bitch' of a TDCI :)
Timty
Oh! No!
The latest update. I took the car on a motorway drive today to Dublin. At exactly the same point on the road as on 2 previous events (after 60 miles of steady 65mph) the Engine Malfunction light came on. However, this time, [b][u]no loss of power[/u][/b]. About 20 miles before this I saw the rev counter and speedo drop to zero and immediately go back to where they should be. I was driving with my OBD code reader connected, hoping to catch the error if it happened. Guess what .. when I tried to read it the screen had more or less gone blank, barely readable but I could see it displayed a loss of connection to the ECU!! Between the previous engine malfunction ([b]mis-fire[/b], light on, [b][u]no power[/u][/b], [b][u]engine at idle[/u][/b], no response to throttle, turn off turn on all ok again) and this event (no mis-fire, malfunction light on, no loss of power) I have fitted a blanking plate on the EGR (the one with the 10mm hole). I wonder have I proved my theory that the EGR is sticking open? I did the scan using the Reset button on the column and it came up with D900.

That said I tried 4 Ford dealers today to have a scan done and they are all too busy! I have the car booked in for next wednesday. The service manager there suspects an over pressurisation by teh high pressure diesel pump or maybe an injector fault. He says there should really be an OBD code but I've never found one. He will do deeper diagnostics.
FOCA
As you probably already know, EGR blanking plates with holes are of limited use (if any) - the EGR has to be working properly for them to work, and they don't block the flow of gasses (defeating the purpose) a solid plate (stainless steel) will "fix" a leaking/ faulty EGR valve, as well as completely stopping the unwanted flow of exhaust gasses

Fit a solid plate and let us know how you get on



The correct "domestic" (cheap) OBD11 code reader that is designed to read the Ford OBD11 protocols does 99.9% of what the "expensive" (pro) code readers do

So which code reader are you using? does it have the Ford- specific protocols?

the plug can come loose, it helps if you support/ push to inner part of the socket tight against the plug when you push the plug in



I personally, would not waste my money on putting my car to a garage/ dealer to get my codes read (but i have a Bluefin handset that reads all my codes) -

As far as im aware, by Bluefin handset can read all the codes the garage can, and reset the codes, and the only thing the Bluefin CANT do and (some) garages can, is recode the injectors
Timty
Thanks FOCA. My code reader is an Autel Maxiscan MS509. It was highly recommended in 'Car Mechanics' magazine in 2011, that's why I bought it. I wonder did the code reader go faulty while it was connected and cause my 'Engine Malfunction' warning today or did the car generate the warning and in some way or other (voltage spike?) damage the code reader. Major portions of the code reader lcd are missing. That said when the fault occured I was able to discern this from the lcd: U1040 'Lost communication with the Body Control Module' U0001 'High Speed Can Communication Bus' and U2005 'DTC Definition not found' . I still don't know what that last one is for.
I've ordered a Gendan GCR25 off ebay an hour ago, feel 'naked' without a code reader!
You are absolutely correct in what you say about the blanking plate with the hole. I do have a solid one and will try that. However, in fairness, while I got an MIL light today I did not lose power. This is an improvement! Have I got an EGR issue but the restricted plate did not allow the cylinders to 'flood' with inert gas? Who knows! Is there anything worse than an intermittent fault that does not store a code. Is there anything worse than actualy calling to 4 Ford main dealers in the area and not one of them in a position to put the car on a scan unless you book it in, take a morning off, arrange alternative transport etc etc.

I've had a mercedes e270 cdi for 9 months, 3 of which it spent its time in the garage having torque converters replaced! My mate has a '07 Audi A4 2.0tdi that ate its cam followers, cost 1300 euro to repair and is still not right. My work colleague, with a low mileage 2009 1.8 tdci Mondeo just failed the MOT with a smoke figure of 5.5 (limit 1.5). My neighbour's Peugeot HDi has just had a new clutch/dmf fitted. BUT ... my daughter's 1999, 1Litre Petrol Polo with 140,000 miles never gives trouble!! Conclusion - buy a petrol car.

Ok, rant over, the wine is beginning to work now. I think I will suffer it and take the car to the dealer on Wednesday and see what they might find. I'll let you know what happens. Tomorrow I will attempt to go to Dublin again but this time I am much more hopeful of getting there ... because I'm taking the train!!

Tim
Fuzz

Hi guys, just had my car code read and the results were P1408 EGR flow out of self test range and Turbo boost pressure not detected, they said its in limp mode, but the guys at the garage could not establish the location of the egr valve to remove and try and dislodge any soot on it, so my question is, does anyone know where the EGR valve is located on a 1.6 tdci sport 2007 and also how much roughly is it going to cost me to fix these problems, also the other thing is that the turbo impeller is very wobbly it feels like its about to fall off, does that mean the turbo is on its way out or already gone hence the turbo boost pressure not detected?

Thank you in advance.

mick85
If there excess play in turbo replace if it breaks up could be bye bye engine an egr valve at back of engine closer to gearbox u be look min 2 hour to remove an clean best cleanin intake at same time
Fuzz

ohhhhh ok, I guess its time to look for a turbo then, any suggestions on where I can get one on a rather limited budget and am I better off getting a used or reconditioned one.

Also how do I go about cleaning the intake and which part do you mean ecxactly..sorry I dint get that part.

mick85
I would go for recondition turbo change oil an clean all turbo pipes has ur car good service history serviced right mileage an right time year intake manifold new air filter make sure no dirt wats ur mileage
Fuzz

It was last serviced in Jan 2013 and its a month overdue, actually I was taking it in for a service when the problems started and the guys at the garage said to bring it in on monday so they can properly id the problem but am thinking they may end up telling me large sums of money to pay thats why I was thinking of diagnosing and fixing it myself and the other thing now is that I'm scared to drive it anymore before changing that turbo because the noise from the compressor blade got worse the last time I drove it home, it might be reaching breaking point.

 

the milage is 84k and its got the last 4 years of traceable service upto last year. 

mick85
When u start ur car do u let it idle for couple min when u start it an let it idle before u turn engine off do u ever drive it hard before properly heated up all also remove intercooler an clean when replacing turbo


Sent from my iPhone using Ford OC
Fuzz

Actually I dont do the things you mentioned, I just start and go and also when I stop, I just turn it off and yes I've driven hard from cold start some times in a rush, seems like I killed it then?..

 

Where do I find the intercooler 

 

Thankx again for your advise

mick85
Not that u killed it but they just all steps to help keep turbo alive longer we both no it's not an ideal world sometime u in a rush an can't afford hang around intercooler in front of radiator


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Fuzz

That's true man thankx for your help...

hope you're having a good weekend

mick85
Also does ur car be smokey in morning diesel injectors are common to leak over night past rings into oil contaminating it


Sent from my iPhone using Ford OC
Fuzz

been busy most of the afternoon trying to get the turbo and egr valve off the car and had some trouble with the two nuts at the top, they wer a nightmare to get off but eventually got them out and as for the smoking bit, its never smoked ever the tail pipe is so clean you wouldnt think its a diesel engine its spotless and just passed its mot a few days ago.

 

whats the best egr valve cleaner out there, if i leave it soaking in white spirit over night do you think that could cause any damage to it? 

martyntdci

Does your car have a Euro 4 EGR. My understanding is that a vacuum operated EGR is Euro 3 while motorised is Euro 4? The solid blanking plate should bring on the eml light on a Euro 4 .. as I understand it anyway. Did this happen with you?

 

i forgot all bout this, so sos sorry for the reply dude...  my car has a euro 4, and yes the egr is electric... no there is no eml light on, or there has never been on since i fitted the first plate...



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