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d0gMa
Hi Everyone,

I bought a Focus 1.6 TDCI 05 reg, second hand about a year ago and its done 130k miles.
Ive replaced the air filter and a complete oil change myself, but a few weeks ago I started having problems.

I noticed a lack in engine power and a ticking noise, so I took it in to my garage and they said it was a faulty inhector seal (first injector) which they replaced and everything was fine again (albeit with a lot of oil under splattered everywhere on the engine).

A week later I noticed a performance drop again and took it in, they replaced the intercooler pipe which had a split in it.... everything went fine again. A few weeks later and I had another power drop, now on taking it to a different garage I was informed that the 1.6 had major turbo problems, so I read up and scared myself in the process.The mechanic stated I had a bit of a leak still on inhector 1 and that maybe there was a slight breather pipe problem.

Now Ive read that injectors leak ---> oil burns --> carbon build up and muck in breather pipe ---> expensive turbo failure which nobody wants to fix.

What can I do to ensure that this doesnt happen? is there anything I can ask to be fixed? is there anything I can do such as more frequent oil changes? or even anything that I can keep my eye on. I dont have the money for a full engine transplant. Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thank You.

Ian
Stoney871
It's recommended to have an oil change about every 5k.
Allow the car to warn up a bit before booting it so the oil has time to circulate around the turbo first and allow the car to idle for a bit before switching off so the turbo has time to spin down and that should reduce wear and tear a bit.
Carl0s
Regular... oil... change... I cant imagine what they have been smoking when they decided that the intervall for oilchange should be 12k miles... Mine was serviced by the book, every 12k on ford, and at 180k miles the valvetrain failed, and now im looking for replacement engine (ironicly the 180k is the last possible stamp you can put on the service record book, so guess according to ford then the car is done :P ). my mondeo did 280k miles whit 5k oilchange interval, and it worked like a dream :)


But for the topic, its pretty easy to check the vacuumpumps mesh for oil sludge, and check the oilfilter for sludge. I would check the oilpumps pickup tube also, but the oilpan is gluesealed, and nearly impossible to take off whitout bending it, witch will cause it to leak. (new one was like 40e from ford).

If these look clean, then i wouldnt stress so much about it. Reguar oilchange should be enough... Tho, if you want to play for sure, you could use forte engine flush, and then rechange the oils.

If you think you got leaking injector seal, take the engine cover of, and pour some soap water on the injectors root. Turn the engine on, and you should easily see if any of the injectors leak.
lottysvdub
Regarding this topic I've had quite a lot to do with the 1.6TDCI engine. I work for Citroen as a tech and we have had loads of total engine failures with this model on the C4 Picasso.
We regularly have to take the sumps off to clear the oil strainers of carbon. Quick tip to.remove the sump without trashing it is to undo all the 8mm bolts and then the 2 x 10mm nuts..... When there off undo the 2 studs that the 10mm nuts fit to...... They have a small lip on them on the inner edge of the sump....As you draw the studs down they will pop the sump off with out much effort and leave just a small impression on the face of the sump. This you simply turn upside down and tap flat with the use of a 3/8th drive socket extension bar and then re seal with a decent silicone sealer.
Other points we clean / replace are like mentioned the small oil way gauze filter in the vac pump and also the oil feed pipe to the turbo..... A little awkward to do but remove the turbo if you can and replace the pipe for a new one...... They have a small gauze filter in them too which blocks. Some people have actually removed the gauze filters completely but I think a little bit of maintenance on them from time to time is better than large chunks of carbon floating around the system.

I will add it too have a focus 1.6TDCI and love it to bits...... I change the oil around every 3 months bit I get it free so it's no real issue for me...... But good quality oil and decent filters changed at regular intervals will definitely help keep your car going.
Carl0s
Thumbs up for the tip using the studs as puller didnt eaven think about that :)

Forgot to mention the turbo pipe, the bolt for turbo oil intake is in a kind of awkward place like mentioned (its like under the exhausmanifold, you can spot it under the car), its not as good as taking it apart and cleaning, but what i did, is that i took out the bolt from the turbo, and then using compressed air i blowed the oilpipe clean (hard to explain, but when you press air in it, the oil flows back, and hopefully, pushes off any sludge in the mesh)

I use the ford motocrafts 5W-30 oil, that costs 29€ / 5litre and the oilfilter costs 9.90€, so 40€ for a oilchange is not going to bankrub anyone, even if done every 5k :)

And, personaly, i would blank out the EGR. Done it to every car that i have owned (still under progress on focus, but since i need to change the whole engine, its not that urgent). not realy that big of a deal, but eaven by looking how the intake pipes look on an egr engine, you start to wonder that it cant be healthy for the engine.
grahamp
Good question, and this is a job I need to do fairly urgently myself. Mine's on 55K now so getting close to the time when they start going bang.

My plan is clean and replace the following parts. For me clean means a liberal dousing in brake cleaner and wipe out, I haven't got an air line..

Sump off,
oil pickup pipe off and cleaned or replaced,
replace the turbo supply banjo bolt+gauze
remove & clean out the oil cooler

Got a few questions for the pros...
- Can I get away with just cleaning out the pick up pipe rather than replacing it, they're about £35+vat. I'd imagine they're not so easy to clean out properly. On refitting it, should I use threadlock? The book just specifies torque values.
- The front exhaust inc cat has to come off to access the turbo oil supply banjo and get the sump off? According to the book (Ford ETIS) the whole flexible part of the exhaust should be removed taking care not to damage it- can I get away with just unbolting the front pipe/catalyst at the flexible pipe joint? Its going to be on axle stands and the subframe is in the way, I'd rather just leave the flexible part alone. I wonder why the book reckons the whole lot needs to come off??
- is it worth cleaning out the oil cooler or just leave it be?
- is it worth replacing the turbo feed pipe?

Going to wait for a nice spring weekend, could be a while....
JonnyRotten
Hello there,
Been crawling round the internet for the last few days as have noticed what I thought was oil on the top of the rocker cover, I tried to wipe it away to find out where exactly it was coming from, but it was solid and black and shiny. I have now found out that it is a seal for the 3rd injector (the one 3 away from the transmission) that has gone and the black shiny stuff is a carbon build up, the start of bigger and badder problems, this affects the oil ways in the engine and will affect the turbo by restricting oil flow to it and thus killing it! I have seen posts from several people and mechanics that have owned one and have serviced it far beyond the regular intervals and used the correct oil etc who are getting the problems too! Ford recognise that there is a problem but will not compensate anyone, they should of recalled all the 1.6 tdci units but because there are so many out there and they're earning a tidy profit from them in todays high priced fuel climate. Other parts ie the air hose from the air box to the turbo which has a smaller pipe coming off which goes into the head has plastic clips which are very prone to breaking and if you need a new one from Fords it is £95 + VAT, just show you that Ford are only after money on this unit! I am now either going for a 2.0 unit or never buying a Ford again!!
lottysvdub
I disagree with some of your comments..... Yes the 1.6 tdci is a problematic engine but ford wouldn't recall them because of carbon build up internally to the engine.
If you have injector seals leaking simply get them done...... Any decent garage can do them or even if your computational with tools you can do them. The parts are cheap enough and with a little patience you won't have a problem.
I work for Citroen but own a 1.6 tdci focus and love it..... I've seen some of the horror stories your referring too but I've also seen taxi's with over 250000 miles on the clock..... Running the original engine. Just serviced regularly and maintained quite well by the owners. Not sure if you know but the tdci engine is a PSA engine..... Made by Peugeot and Citroen and supplied to ford. I honestly don't know how many of these engines I've either rebuilt or replaced but they are normally due to missed services and poor quality parts used at service.
Regarding the injector seals.....we must do at least 1 set a week..... Not just to the 1.6 but the 1.4 and occasionally the 2 litre. So to me it's not just a problem with the 1.6 its a diesel issue and poor maintenance or missed problems on service.
grahamp
There's a long-running thread over on the Honest John site which has pretty well become "ITS THE INJECTORS LEAKING!!!" to the exclusion of all other possibilities.


There are shed loads of cars on the road with these engines.. some have had serious problems with carbon build up and oil that turns to sludge, others are ok. As for the causes - I think it pays to have an open mind - yes, possibly a leaking injector could contaminate the oil, but as mentioned poor servicing could equally be a cause, as could perhaps a blocked DPF... read what Sinspeed reckon on the subject:

[url="http://www.sinspeed.co.uk/ford-focus-dpf-1-6tdci-16v-turbocharger-failed-rebuilds-stock-available"]http://www.sinspeed.co.uk/ford-focus-dpf-1-6tdci-16v-turbocharger-failed-rebuilds-stock-available[/url]

As an owner its wise to be aware of the possible issues... my car didn't have a great start in life, the first owner had it serviced at 15k intervals and Ford put semi-syn in, but hopefully I can avert disaster by changing the feed pipe and ensuring the sump pick up isn't blocked, giving it a clean out and then sticking to 6 month oil changes.
talksy
You mention about the regular oil changes like 5 k. I think mine is supposed to be done every 12k.
I dont have a clue about the engine on the car and dont really want to start messing with it. How much would it cost me roughly to have the oil changed at my local garage? If I was to do it every 5 k, I would begoing back and forth quite a lot!
grahamp
the 1.8TDCi in your signature is an altogether different engine, so don't worry about it.

It never hurts to change the oil more regularly than manufacturer specified intervals though, and should cost less than a fill of the fuel tank.
talksy
[quote name='grahamp' timestamp='1359993997' post='233049']
the 1.8TDCi in your signature is an altogether different engine, so don't worry about it.

It never hurts to change the oil more regularly than manufacturer specified intervals though, and should cost less than a fill of the fuel tank.
[/quote]

Thanks very much for your post :)
JonnyRotten
[quote name='lottysvdub' timestamp='1359702433' post='232160']
I disagree with some of your comments..... Yes the 1.6 tdci is a problematic engine but ford wouldn't recall them because of carbon build up internally to the engine.
If you have injector seals leaking simply get them done...... Any decent garage can do them or even if your computational with tools you can do them. The parts are cheap enough and with a little patience you won't have a problem.
I work for Citroen but own a 1.6 tdci focus and love it..... I've seen some of the horror stories your referring too but I've also seen taxi's with over 250000 miles on the clock..... Running the original engine. Just serviced regularly and maintained quite well by the owners. Not sure if you know but the tdci engine is a PSA engine..... Made by Peugeot and Citroen and supplied to ford. I honestly don't know how many of these engines I've either rebuilt or replaced but they are normally due to missed services and poor quality parts used at service.
Regarding the injector seals.....we must do at least 1 set a week..... Not just to the 1.6 but the 1.4 and occasionally the 2 litre. So to me it's not just a problem with the 1.6 its a diesel issue and poor maintenance or missed problems on service.
[/quote]
Ok thank you lottysvdub
I think I've been drawn in to a state of panic after reading from the horror stories on the web. I do very high mileage so I have good reason to panic! Although I have to point out that although the engine is made by Peugeot, Citroen, the parts attached to it are not. I don't want to scare anyone else who has one of these cars, so I'll keep my mouth shut now.
Carl0s
[quote name='JonnyRotten' timestamp='1360091276' post='233458']
Ok thank you lottysvdub
I think I've been drawn in to a state of panic after reading from the horror stories on the web. I do very high mileage so I have good reason to panic! Although I have to point out that although the engine is made by Peugeot, Citroen, the parts attached to it are not. I don't want to scare anyone else who has one of these cars, so I'll keep my mouth shut now.
[/quote]

Naah, panicing doesent help at all... :)

And look for the bright side: Since there is shedloads of cars whit these engines, if things go down, you can buy replacement fairly cheap. I just bought 15k driven engine for 800 to my car. If you can do the swap your self, its a weekend job. :)
JeffFocus

Hi there,

 

My Focus 1.6 tdci (06 reg and 70k miles) has just had a leak on the 3rd injector. A local garage sorted it out for me but after reading all about turbo failure due to clogged up oil galleries, I'm thinking it's probably a wise move to look into some simple preventative measures I can do myself. I've also got concerns as it looks like the inject had been leaking for a while (maybe a couple of months - wife's car and she didn't notice the oily smell etc)

 

What are your thoughts about using an oil flush (only this once) to remove any unwanted sludge etc?  I've read a lot of good and bad articles about them and apparently Ford uses Wynns oil flush as part of their turbo replacement procedure.  Before we just relied on the annual service which came around every 12k miles so now I'm a little bit worried that I've not changed the oil enough in the past.

 

Also, would briefly disconnecting the oil feed pipe on the turbo to check the oil flow be a really bad idea? Just thinking that this would be a real simple test to see if the pipe is blocked etc. I'm assuming it's the small pipe that connects to the top of the turbo? 

 

thanks

 

Jeff

grahamp

The Ford Tech Service Bulletin 46/2008 covering turbo replacement recommends doing a 20 min flush with Wurth engine cleaner, but I asked a Ford technician and he said they definitely wouldn't flush. Could be the TSB is out of date, but flushes definitely divide opinion. Personally I'd play it safe and not bother.

 

I would say disconnecting the feed pipe is a bad idea, you're going to be starving the turbo bearings of oil, and you're going to have a job doing it with the cat section of the exhaust in place. Ford recommend disconnecting the oil return line, replacing it with a long tube, and then letting the engine idle for 60 seconds while collecting the oil in a container. You should get 0.3 litre or more of uninterrupted flow after running this test. I guess you could remove your feed pipe and probe it a bit to see if its gummed up.

 

One other thing, if your car has a DPF you'll need to pop the radiator fan and shroud out to gain access.

 

I'm just putting a shopping list together for my local Ford dealer, some of the bits are a bit expensive, I think a new feed pipe is at least £50, so it could get a bit pricey for preventative maintenance, but a lot cheaper than having to replace a turbo etc. ... I'm going to clean and reuse the sump pick up pipe but replace most other bits. If I have a successful story to tell I'll stick some info back here....

JeffFocus

Hi Graham

 

Thanks for the reply. Yes, the oil return would be more sensible approach.

 

I thought the oil feed pipe for the turbo is the one that sits onto of the turbo and looks very accessable. So maybe I just undo this and inspect he pipe to see what the condition is like? That should give me an idea how bad the problem is. Or have I got the wrong pipe completely?

 

Might just pop down to my local garage and see how much they'll charge to take the sump off, clean the feed pipe (if possible) and give it an oil / filter change. From there on I'll just keep changing the oil and filter every 5K and hope for the best I guess. 

 

I'll be interested to see how you get on with your plan though.

 

Thanks

 

Jeff

grahamp

Hi Jeff, yeah the feed pipe is the metal one you can see on top of the turbo, fastened with a hex type bolt. I thought you meant remove the pipe entirely, and the other end is inaccessible. The thing is the banjo bolt at the other end has a gauze filter in it which is what really gets blocked up, so imo that probably needs replacing even if the pipe looks ok. 

 

I kinda doubt you'll be able to tell much by undoing that top bolt as the pipe is rigid steel, and the design of the bolts means the ends are obscured. If you do, its 30Nm to torque back up. I'd love to save £50 and reuse mine but I think I'll have to take the hit.

JeffFocus

yes I see what you mean. Tricky....

grahamp

yup, which is why I've been putting this job off for about 18 months :-D 

 

 

Oof, parts are gonna be about £180  :wacko:   and I'll probably get stuck halfway through and wreck something, should be a larf at least  :D

grahamp

Got a box of bits,  just need a clear weekend which could take a while. Assuming I survive I'll try come back and write up something to stick in the Guides section. 

JeffFocus

Hi Graham, I'm very tempted to disconnect the oil feed pipe for 60 seconds and do the test this weekend. I have tried calling Ford to double check the figures but can't get through to an engineer.

 

Are you sure it's 300ml after 60 secs? I was thinking of just doing it for 10 seconds and looking for around 50 ml to reduce the risk of oil starvation.

 

I've asked my local (non Ford) garage to give me a price on replacing the oil feed pipe. I'm also half tempted to remove the gauze when i do replace it. Ford obviously say it needs to be there but the way I look at it, if you leave it in you have a higher chance of failure than if you remove it. I cant see any benefit what so ever?

 

Would love to hear your views?

 

Cheers

 

Jeff 

grahamp

Hi Jeff, yes definitely 330ml after a minute, that's straight from Ford's ETIS software, and I've seen it elsewhere, for example:

http://www.assuredperformance.ie/assets/images/Presentation-1.6-hdi-carbo-issues.pdf

this Forte tech note states 300ml - 

http://www.forteuk.co.uk/ForteAdmin/Bulletine_PDF/46tech%20bull%20diesel%20dv6.pdf

though I wouldn't flush if I were you.

 

I asked the Ford parts guy about the gauze filter yesterday and he called their Ford Master Tech guy - they leave it in, its there by design. If you take it off you won't have a problem with it blocking, but then carbon particles could find their way to the turbo bearings. End of the day its up to you. I'll be leaving it in place. 

 

If your engine is pretty slimey inside then just replacing or cleaning the feed pipe and banjo bolt might mean that it will fairly quickly be gummed up again, if that was the case. That's why I'm dropping the sump and giving the pick up pipe a clean as well... I ought to do the oil cooler as well, which sits under the oil filter, but AFAIK I'd have to drain and refill coolant, turning a fair headache of a job into a bigger one, so I'll see what I can do with it in situ.

grahamp

the TSB for turbo failure states:

 

 

Install a longer oil return line (locally
procured) to the turbocharger and feed into a suitable container (charge air
cooler intake pipe removed for clarity).

  • Install the air cleaner outlet
    hose.
  •  
  • Start the engine and let
    running at idle. After 60 seconds switch off the engine and measure the
    volume of oil in the container. The quantity of oil collected in 60
    seconds of uninterrupted flow should be higher than 0.3 liter.

1. CAUTION:
Ensure that the engine does not run below min. of oil level.

  • Repeat the test 2 or 3 times to
    confirm the oil flow is correct. If the volume is NOT within specification
    call the Prior Approval Hotline (depending on market) for further actions.
    Prior approval MUST be obtained before a further repair
    is done.
JeffFocus

Thanks Graham

 

I'm now planning on doing an oil change at the weekend as well to try and put my mind to rest. Going to buy a 27mm socket for future oil changes but do I need anything else like washers? On my shopping list all I have is a good quality 5/30 synthetic oil and the oil filter.

 

Also, just popped out to my local garage to get a price on replacing the oil feed pipe and the chap doesn't want to do the job. He's spoken to his mechanic friend who's advised him not to touch it due to all the issues around turbo failure. Advised me to sell the car whilst I could. Nice hey. Time to roll my sleeves up i guess.

 

On another thought, I currently have AA cover via my bank and I notice that they also offer a Garage and Parts cover for £7 per month. I did look at the small print and there is a statement in there that says they don't cover parts where lack of oil has caused the failure. I think its more aimed at people who don't service the car as I doubt they'll perform root cause analysis on the turbo  failure. The only downside is that the max you can claim for is £500 and you pay £35 excess which makes it quite pricey if the regular oil changes prove to be a success. 

JeffFocus

I guess at the end of the day, by looking at the old oil filter (and sump if you have time to remove) you should get a good idea of how bad things are in the engine. If it's got loads of carbonised oily deposits, then its time to worry!! 

grahamp

Well, if the turbo goes in future the customer could blame the garage that did the work I guess. Selling the car would be a bit of a hysterical reaction though. Might be worth talking to a Ford service centre as well if you've got one nearby, they might not be as expensive as you'd think and they'll know the issues inside out. The way I see it, if I want 61mpg and a £30 tax disc on a car I can afford to buy I might have to spend a comparatively small bit of money and put some effort in! 

 

You're probably ok reusing the the sump plug and washer but they're only £3 - £4 from the parts shop so use new. There are a couple of minor details with an oil change that might catch you out first time - 

 

. the Haynes manual doesnt mention it but you need to undo 2 bolts on the intercooler pipe to get the filter off and on again. There's a vid showing it here:-

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wM-oAlRskwo

 

You need a Torx T30 to undo the undertray fasteners, a 21mm socket or spanner for the drain plug and a 27mm as you've mentioned for the filter.

 

I do the job with the car on the ground, no need to raise the front if you can reach under to undo the 2 undertray screws at the back, though it is easier with it raised. And obviously run the car til its warmed up first.

 

1. remove engine undertray

2. remove air filter assembly. Don't drop / lose the rubber ring that holds the filter down, I dropped mine inside the rad fan cowl once. While its off you can clean any oil out and check the air filter too.

3. detach the 2 bolts on the intercooler pipe.

4. remove the oil filter (do this before draining the oil)

5. remove oil filler cap, and then sump plug and drain the oil.

6. pull the old filter out of the filter cap, clean up the cap. Note where the old large o-ring was installed and replace with new ( should come with the new filter), then insert new oil filter- its a tight fit and you need to push it fairly hard to click it in.

7. refit everything, refill with 3.8litres of oil (Magnatec 5W30 Ford spec is prob the best).

 

drain plug: 21mm socket, 34Nm torque

filter cap: 27mm, 24Nm torque

 

think that's about it :-)   I did my last oil change after only 3000 miles as it was used mainly for short cold school runs over last winter- the oil was pretty thick when I chucked it, so well worth sticking to every 6 months or about 6 - 8000 miles depending on conditions.

grahamp

I guess at the end of the day, by looking at the old oil filter (and sump if you have time to remove) you should get a good idea of how bad things are in the engine. If it's got loads of carbonised oily deposits, then its time to worry!! 

 

I poured my old oil through one of those funnels with a small metal strainer, sainsbury's sell them for about £1.50...  the old oil had a real job getting past it, I had to pull it out in the end. The filter looked pretty clean though. I'd expect the bottom of the sump to be pretty gloopy- looking at my new sump, there's about half an inch at the bottom that doesnt get drained because the drain hole is raised within the sump so the plug can thread in, so not ideal.

JeffFocus

Thanks for the instructions, most helpful Graham  :)

grahamp

NP. Might be worth getting a fluid extractor at some point for removing that last bit of oil in the bottom of the sump. I'll have a think about that when I get the sump off. But its not happening for at least the next 3 weekends, its seems to be kids birthday party season again..

JeffFocus

Managed to change the oil and filter following your instructions thanks Graham. All went fine apart from I couldn't see where the o ring seal went that came with the new filter? Nothing seemed to fit it and there wasn't an old seal that I could see? Anyway it all seems fine and there's no oil leaks so I assume it's ok.

 

No signs of carbonized oil on the filter or in the old oil. The only place I could see it was around the rocker cover by the breather pipe which I would think it normal? it wasn't much, just a light covering. I did try and get the rocker cover off but the injector pipes we're in the way and I didn't want to disturb things too much.

 

Your link to the turbo failure investigation was an interesting read. However, if you only changed the oil every 30k for the first two years I guess that's what happens?

 

Good luck with your sump replacement project and make sure you take loads of pics! I'll probably me attempting it later on in the year.

 

thanks again

 

Jeff

Oldbeforemytime

Quick question for you guys,

When a turbo does go, roughly how much would it cost to replace (assuming no other damage to the engine)

grahamp

Hmmm, should've been a large-ish o-ring that fits in a recess at the top of the screw thread on the plastic filter housing.

 

I've had exactly the same on mine, a little bit of carbonized oil at the breather pipe joint, the carbon here is nothing to worry about. There is a breather valve and filter that AFAIK ought to stop oil coming up here, but unfortunately they are integral with the rocker cover so fixing them means a replacement rocker cover- I wouldn't disturb the injectors myself, so I'll just have to live with it. But where does the oil end up? There's a chance it could get blown through the intercooler and over time could get everything sticky... I've heard of oil  damaging the throttle body seal and leaking from it. Something else to check out sometime I guess.

 

Yep, I've bought the bits so there's no putting it off now. I've probably wasted a fair bit of money on parts that could be cleaned and refitted, but I figured I'd best do it by the book. I can't promise a Haynes-style guide but I'll try and put something together

 

And yep there are some scary pics of gummed up 1.6's, but there is either some underlying fault or poor maintenance as a cause and you can find similar pics for other makes' engines.

 

As for turbo cost, no idea. If it has gone they need to figure the cause first and rectify, otherwise the replacement will go as well.

JeffFocus

Not sure either on turbo costs. I've seen you can buy turbo's on ebay for £300 but then you need all the other parts they recommend replacing like the oil feed pipe, sump and pump etc. The ebay sites are pretty good at explaining that unless you replace the other parts, there is no warranty on the turbo. I think these work out to be another £200. I've also heard stories that Ford charge around £1500 for "turbo replacement kit" which contains all the bits  :wacko:

 

Pretty scary really.

 

Is yours showing signs of failure? 

Oldbeforemytime

Thank you for the replies.

 

It's in with a garage and they started looking at it today, they said there'd be no warrenty on the work because Ford themselves say when a turbo goes you should replace the engine. As an employee of the group that made the engine to start with I'm not best pleased and would have avoided that engine if I'd known who it was made by because of the issues that it has.

 

Haven't been made aware of prices as of yet but I will keep you lot updated with what's gone wrong.

I'm quite hoping that it was low oil that caused it and not something more sinister.

grahamp

Oof, another one bites the dust, sorry to hear about your problems :-(   There's a very long thread on the Honest John forum of people with the same problem, though the chat there is a bit fixated on injector leak as the only possible cause.

 

AFAIK Ford don't normally recommend engine replacement - the turbo should be warranted if the work is carried out as per Fords Tech Service Bulletin 46/2008 mentioned on page 2 of this convo. Though it has come to engine replacement in some cases where they've tried to clean the engine and its gone on to blow its 2nd and 3rd replacement turbo...   Well good luck and hope yours has a happy ending. There was a modification done during production to try and stop it happening- I think they modified the turbo feed pipe so it was away from exhaust heat, to stop it baking the oil in the pipe. If your car is 2005 it'll predate the modification, so that's another possible cause along with carbonised sludgy oil caused by blocked DPF, leaking injector, etc. 

grahamp
In case anyone's interested, did my car over the weekend, replaced banjo bolts, feed pipe, sump off, cleaned out etc. Car is a 2008 90bhp with no DPF, on 58000 miles. Serviced twice by Ford at 14k and 32k with semi-synthetic, then when I bought at 46k, then 54 and 57k and now again at 58. Luckily I stock up on Magnatec when its £18 from ECP. So quite long intervals between first services and with all the horror stories I decided I'd rather replace possibly OK parts than wait for it to go bang. 
 
I found the banjo bolt filter was fine, the feed pipe was fine, as was the return, all completely normal. Ford have changed the design of the filter - original parts have the filter in the end of the bolt presenting a small surface area, the revised design has the filter inside the bolt so there's a bigger surface area, therefore less likely to block. So a bit of a waste of time and money but at least I know what's going on under the bonnet.
 
As for the sump, that was worthwhile. I decided not to bother removing the pickup pick and just fired a can of brake cleaner up through the mesh in the bottom. Each shot of cleaner caused a big load of black gloop to come out. The bottom of the sump holds about 1/4 litre of oil so it ends up contaminating any clean oil that gets put in. Dunno if anyone's had success using a vacuum drainer, the dipstick tube has a couple of kinks in so it might be tricky pushing a tube all the way to the bottom. I was glad I got it all cleaned out, and the oil is still coming up clean on the dipstick which makes a nice change from it turning straight to ink. 
 
I'll stick a how-to guide in the Guides section if I get time, there were a few gotchas and the usual "why did I start this ****ing job" 
moments so it might be helpful for someone.
 
So the conclusion.... don't believe all the scare stories about these being unreliable engines - unless your turbo has gone bang of course :-(  there must be some factor that causes the carbonisation problems, either leaking injectors, blocked DPF, poor oil servicing or a combination of the above - or who knows. The question is how would you tell if you had an injector problem or a blocked DPF before the damage gets done? I dunno if there's something an owner can do to diagnose those faults, I guess the problem is hidden away until its too late.
Oldbeforemytime

Now Ive read that injectors leak ---> oil burns --> carbon build up and muck in breather pipe ---> expensive turbo failure which nobody wants to fix.
 

 

Hi d0gMa,

 

I've recently been through the turbo failure, the TSB from Ford supposedly says to replace the engine.

I had the garage replace the turbo then check the engine for damage. Admittedly it has cost me almost £1k on a 55 plate Ghia which ticked over 50k the day after I picked it up.

dreadz

i'm on 2nd replacement turbo. 1st replacment turbo lasted 2000 miles- had everything changed as per ford bulletin. all warrantied though -cost me £££ first time round. Garage said this time that was partially blocked filter in banjo bolt..everyhting else was ok. so he said should be ok after this- keep on top of oil changes..what i want to know is - the banjo bolt with filter- how easy and what cost is to replace everytime i get oil change? seems worthwhile doing in the future? is it time consuming just replacing that part? surely it should have been a serviced item??seeing as its easily blocked?

grahamp

I'm going to put a how-to in the guides section on replacing the banjo filter, but imo if its getting blocked that's a sign of a problem elsewhere.. you shouldn't have carbon in the oil to block the filter in the first place. If you change the filter there's a chance it could be blocked again with in a couple of thousand miles so I think its a bit pointless changing it as a service item. The new design of banjo filter is less likely to block than the original though.

 

Essentially all that has to happen on top of what you'd do for an oil change is detach the charged air cooler pipe and remove the cat section of exhaust to gain access. If your car has a DPF its more of a pain. I'll detail all that in the guides section when I get a chance, but once its off there's the banjo bolt, so I think a competent garage ought to be able to do a non DPF car within an hour. 

dreadz

yeah mines dpf 110..garage said it was probably what was left in areas of engine they could not flush/ air blow down.. all pipes etc / fileters/sump etc were renewed so no issue there. although had injector 3 leaking pretty dam bad orginally- black carbon everywhere and had burny smell in cabin for approx 12 months..was well and trully caked! also sounded like a tractor with injector noise..

 

now virtually no noise from injectors on startup- prob for about 1-3 mins then silent - judt think i would raher pay the extra when changing oi/filter to do banjo filter at same time.. how much does the banjo filter retail at?  car was prob serviced approx 9000-13000 miles each time...so now will be changed at 4000-6000 miles now!

 

may even get dpf removed if turbo holds up

 

looking forward to that how to guide...cheers

grahamp

Banjo bolt is £6.35+vat, you should change the 2 copper washers at the same time, a bit pricey at £4.60+vat for the 2.

 

I might get a guide up this evening if I've got time, after sanding & teak oiling the garden furniture :-/

dreadz

see for the cost, i would be lot happier knowing that its changed...justb the time to get to it is the concern...could bump up the cost of filter/oil change considerably..thanks for the info though. i;m sure citroien or peugeuot recommend that filter to be changed at service? but ford dont? cant find the info to back this up though?

lottysvdub

Dreadz Having been a Senior workshop technician for 2 Citroen workshops I can assure you they do not recommend changing the banjo bolt at all...... Unless your having a new turbo......Then 1/2 the time they don't bother to the frustration of the technicians.... 

To be honest PSA have tried to sweep this fault under the carpet on all cars out of warranty. They simply are not interested..... I worked in one dealer where a customer had a C4 1.6 hdi with the usual turbo failure at approx 50k.... The old customer was given a price to replace the engine or to strip down the old one and clean out as much as possible + new turbo.... He was talked in to trading it in against a C4 Picasso which was far to big for him to drive in my opinion....... His old car simply had a recon turbo fitted and an oil change and that was all..... Within 3 days it was on the forecourt for sale at twice the price he was given as a trade in.....

Ironically his C4 Picasso had a nice whistle on boost even before he took delivery of it..... He did ask but was told by the service manager it was perfectly normal for that model...... Even though it was the same engine and turbo as his old C4 car.

dreadz

ahh ok, thought i had seen that on a few forums had visited earlier in year.so is it worth doing as an extra service when oil changing or am i just wasting money?

lottysvdub

I  would recommend changing it if you can of don't mind paying to get it done.... 

My wife's car is a 56 reg 1.6 tdci and has just done 75k and the oil a day filter have been changed every 5k from new..... But recently has developed a whistle on boost..... I'm not too worried at the moment as I've checked the turbo and it has the correct amount of play on the turbine..... I can find no leaks from pipes but have noticed a slight leak from the top of the cam cover when boosting..... You can feel the air pushing out of the end..... Not sure why as I've never come across this with Citroen... Even my local ford dealer where stumped when I asked them lol.

Car still runs like a dream with no power loss or smoke so at some point I will get hold of a new cam cover and try it. 

JeffFocus

Hi Graham

 

Thanks for the update. I think even though you've spent money on parts you didn't need, the knowledge that everything is ok is worth far more.

 

Quick question which would probably be answered in your guide...

 

How difficult was it to get the sump off? When I changed the oil I noticed that the exhaust covers some of the nuts holding the sump on. I would love to do your brake cleaner trick and clean the gloop out of the bottom. I think mine has a DPF which no doubt adds to the entertainment  :wacko:

 

Will probably attempt what you did in the autumn. If you could get your guide on here, that would be awesome  :) 

 

Also on a side note, I'm thinking of doing all the servicing from now on. Do you have or can point me in the right direction where it details when the other serviceable items need to be replaced, such as air filters etc. 

 

Thanks again

 

Jeff  

grahamp
You can generate a service schedule at WWW.Etis.ford.com or the Haynes manual is pretty good, and of course this forum.

In terms of servicing yourself .. jacking / supporting is a bit sketchy, fuel system can be hard to prime, cabin filter is a bit of a pain, otherwise it's a very straightforward car .you might be able to get sump off without disturbing cat pipe but getting it on might be a pain.. it will have wet sealant, you'll need to get it over both bolt studs and there are a lot of bolts to torque up in 5 mins before sealant goes off. But it might be possible.
grahamp

In terms of difficulty removing sump I did find it tricky which was mainly down to the fact I'd never done one before and they stick like limpets. I needed both studs removed in order to free it, sump removal tool to break seal and pry bar to lever it off. When it popped off I realised its pretty easy, i was just worried about knackering something.

I had bigger probs getting it on.. I think there's a slight manufacturing fault with the stud hole on the gearbox side. Oil can leak past the stud and Ford have a revised TSB for the sump where u go round both sides of the hole with sealant. I found the thread in the hole was slightly damaged, it was very tricky getting it started and when trying to torque to 12nm the end of the stud sheared off. A garage might use a tap on the bolt hole but a DIY guy without resources could be in trouble.

JeffFocus

So you think they'll be enough room to get to the sump nuts using say a ring spanner over the exhaust that covers them. Its just the actual separation and refitting that caused the issues?



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