Hi there,
My Focus 1.6 tdci (06 reg and 70k miles) has just had a leak on the 3rd injector. A local garage sorted it out for me but after reading all about turbo failure due to clogged up oil galleries, I'm thinking it's probably a wise move to look into some simple preventative measures I can do myself. I've also got concerns as it looks like the inject had been leaking for a while (maybe a couple of months - wife's car and she didn't notice the oily smell etc)
What are your thoughts about using an oil flush (only this once) to remove any unwanted sludge etc? I've read a lot of good and bad articles about them and apparently Ford uses Wynns oil flush as part of their turbo replacement procedure. Before we just relied on the annual service which came around every 12k miles so now I'm a little bit worried that I've not changed the oil enough in the past.
Also, would briefly disconnecting the oil feed pipe on the turbo to check the oil flow be a really bad idea? Just thinking that this would be a real simple test to see if the pipe is blocked etc. I'm assuming it's the small pipe that connects to the top of the turbo?
thanks
Jeff
The Ford Tech Service Bulletin 46/2008 covering turbo replacement recommends doing a 20 min flush with Wurth engine cleaner, but I asked a Ford technician and he said they definitely wouldn't flush. Could be the TSB is out of date, but flushes definitely divide opinion. Personally I'd play it safe and not bother.
I would say disconnecting the feed pipe is a bad idea, you're going to be starving the turbo bearings of oil, and you're going to have a job doing it with the cat section of the exhaust in place. Ford recommend disconnecting the oil return line, replacing it with a long tube, and then letting the engine idle for 60 seconds while collecting the oil in a container. You should get 0.3 litre or more of uninterrupted flow after running this test. I guess you could remove your feed pipe and probe it a bit to see if its gummed up.
One other thing, if your car has a DPF you'll need to pop the radiator fan and shroud out to gain access.
I'm just putting a shopping list together for my local Ford dealer, some of the bits are a bit expensive, I think a new feed pipe is at least £50, so it could get a bit pricey for preventative maintenance, but a lot cheaper than having to replace a turbo etc. ... I'm going to clean and reuse the sump pick up pipe but replace most other bits. If I have a successful story to tell I'll stick some info back here....
Hi Graham
Thanks for the reply. Yes, the oil return would be more sensible approach.
I thought the oil feed pipe for the turbo is the one that sits onto of the turbo and looks very accessable. So maybe I just undo this and inspect he pipe to see what the condition is like? That should give me an idea how bad the problem is. Or have I got the wrong pipe completely?
Might just pop down to my local garage and see how much they'll charge to take the sump off, clean the feed pipe (if possible) and give it an oil / filter change. From there on I'll just keep changing the oil and filter every 5K and hope for the best I guess.
I'll be interested to see how you get on with your plan though.
Thanks
Jeff
Hi Jeff, yeah the feed pipe is the metal one you can see on top of the turbo, fastened with a hex type bolt. I thought you meant remove the pipe entirely, and the other end is inaccessible. The thing is the banjo bolt at the other end has a gauze filter in it which is what really gets blocked up, so imo that probably needs replacing even if the pipe looks ok.
I kinda doubt you'll be able to tell much by undoing that top bolt as the pipe is rigid steel, and the design of the bolts means the ends are obscured. If you do, its 30Nm to torque back up. I'd love to save £50 and reuse mine but I think I'll have to take the hit.
yes I see what you mean. Tricky....
yup, which is why I've been putting this job off for about 18 months :-D
Oof, parts are gonna be about £180 :wacko: and I'll probably get stuck halfway through and wreck something, should be a larf at least :D
Got a box of bits, just need a clear weekend which could take a while. Assuming I survive I'll try come back and write up something to stick in the Guides section.
Hi Graham, I'm very tempted to disconnect the oil feed pipe for 60 seconds and do the test this weekend. I have tried calling Ford to double check the figures but can't get through to an engineer.
Are you sure it's 300ml after 60 secs? I was thinking of just doing it for 10 seconds and looking for around 50 ml to reduce the risk of oil starvation.
I've asked my local (non Ford) garage to give me a price on replacing the oil feed pipe. I'm also half tempted to remove the gauze when i do replace it. Ford obviously say it needs to be there but the way I look at it, if you leave it in you have a higher chance of failure than if you remove it. I cant see any benefit what so ever?
Would love to hear your views?
Cheers
Jeff
Hi Jeff, yes definitely 330ml after a minute, that's straight from Ford's ETIS software, and I've seen it elsewhere, for example:
http://www.assuredperformance.ie/assets/images/Presentation-1.6-hdi-carbo-issues.pdf
this Forte tech note states 300ml -
http://www.forteuk.co.uk/ForteAdmin/Bulletine_PDF/46tech%20bull%20diesel%20dv6.pdf
though I wouldn't flush if I were you.
I asked the Ford parts guy about the gauze filter yesterday and he called their Ford Master Tech guy - they leave it in, its there by design. If you take it off you won't have a problem with it blocking, but then carbon particles could find their way to the turbo bearings. End of the day its up to you. I'll be leaving it in place.
If your engine is pretty slimey inside then just replacing or cleaning the feed pipe and banjo bolt might mean that it will fairly quickly be gummed up again, if that was the case. That's why I'm dropping the sump and giving the pick up pipe a clean as well... I ought to do the oil cooler as well, which sits under the oil filter, but AFAIK I'd have to drain and refill coolant, turning a fair headache of a job into a bigger one, so I'll see what I can do with it in situ.
the TSB for turbo failure states:
Install a longer oil return line (locally
procured) to the turbocharger and feed into a suitable container (charge air
cooler intake pipe removed for clarity).
1. CAUTION:
Ensure that the engine does not run below min. of oil level.
Thanks Graham
I'm now planning on doing an oil change at the weekend as well to try and put my mind to rest. Going to buy a 27mm socket for future oil changes but do I need anything else like washers? On my shopping list all I have is a good quality 5/30 synthetic oil and the oil filter.
Also, just popped out to my local garage to get a price on replacing the oil feed pipe and the chap doesn't want to do the job. He's spoken to his mechanic friend who's advised him not to touch it due to all the issues around turbo failure. Advised me to sell the car whilst I could. Nice hey. Time to roll my sleeves up i guess.
On another thought, I currently have AA cover via my bank and I notice that they also offer a Garage and Parts cover for £7 per month. I did look at the small print and there is a statement in there that says they don't cover parts where lack of oil has caused the failure. I think its more aimed at people who don't service the car as I doubt they'll perform root cause analysis on the turbo failure. The only downside is that the max you can claim for is £500 and you pay £35 excess which makes it quite pricey if the regular oil changes prove to be a success.
I guess at the end of the day, by looking at the old oil filter (and sump if you have time to remove) you should get a good idea of how bad things are in the engine. If it's got loads of carbonised oily deposits, then its time to worry!!
Well, if the turbo goes in future the customer could blame the garage that did the work I guess. Selling the car would be a bit of a hysterical reaction though. Might be worth talking to a Ford service centre as well if you've got one nearby, they might not be as expensive as you'd think and they'll know the issues inside out. The way I see it, if I want 61mpg and a £30 tax disc on a car I can afford to buy I might have to spend a comparatively small bit of money and put some effort in!
You're probably ok reusing the the sump plug and washer but they're only £3 - £4 from the parts shop so use new. There are a couple of minor details with an oil change that might catch you out first time -
. the Haynes manual doesnt mention it but you need to undo 2 bolts on the intercooler pipe to get the filter off and on again. There's a vid showing it here:-
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wM-oAlRskwo
You need a Torx T30 to undo the undertray fasteners, a 21mm socket or spanner for the drain plug and a 27mm as you've mentioned for the filter.
I do the job with the car on the ground, no need to raise the front if you can reach under to undo the 2 undertray screws at the back, though it is easier with it raised. And obviously run the car til its warmed up first.
1. remove engine undertray
2. remove air filter assembly. Don't drop / lose the rubber ring that holds the filter down, I dropped mine inside the rad fan cowl once. While its off you can clean any oil out and check the air filter too.
3. detach the 2 bolts on the intercooler pipe.
4. remove the oil filter (do this before draining the oil)
5. remove oil filler cap, and then sump plug and drain the oil.
6. pull the old filter out of the filter cap, clean up the cap. Note where the old large o-ring was installed and replace with new ( should come with the new filter), then insert new oil filter- its a tight fit and you need to push it fairly hard to click it in.
7. refit everything, refill with 3.8litres of oil (Magnatec 5W30 Ford spec is prob the best).
drain plug: 21mm socket, 34Nm torque
filter cap: 27mm, 24Nm torque
think that's about it :-) I did my last oil change after only 3000 miles as it was used mainly for short cold school runs over last winter- the oil was pretty thick when I chucked it, so well worth sticking to every 6 months or about 6 - 8000 miles depending on conditions.
I guess at the end of the day, by looking at the old oil filter (and sump if you have time to remove) you should get a good idea of how bad things are in the engine. If it's got loads of carbonised oily deposits, then its time to worry!!
I poured my old oil through one of those funnels with a small metal strainer, sainsbury's sell them for about £1.50... the old oil had a real job getting past it, I had to pull it out in the end. The filter looked pretty clean though. I'd expect the bottom of the sump to be pretty gloopy- looking at my new sump, there's about half an inch at the bottom that doesnt get drained because the drain hole is raised within the sump so the plug can thread in, so not ideal.
Thanks for the instructions, most helpful Graham :)
NP. Might be worth getting a fluid extractor at some point for removing that last bit of oil in the bottom of the sump. I'll have a think about that when I get the sump off. But its not happening for at least the next 3 weekends, its seems to be kids birthday party season again..
Managed to change the oil and filter following your instructions thanks Graham. All went fine apart from I couldn't see where the o ring seal went that came with the new filter? Nothing seemed to fit it and there wasn't an old seal that I could see? Anyway it all seems fine and there's no oil leaks so I assume it's ok.
No signs of carbonized oil on the filter or in the old oil. The only place I could see it was around the rocker cover by the breather pipe which I would think it normal? it wasn't much, just a light covering. I did try and get the rocker cover off but the injector pipes we're in the way and I didn't want to disturb things too much.
Your link to the turbo failure investigation was an interesting read. However, if you only changed the oil every 30k for the first two years I guess that's what happens?
Good luck with your sump replacement project and make sure you take loads of pics! I'll probably me attempting it later on in the year.
thanks again
Jeff
Quick question for you guys,
When a turbo does go, roughly how much would it cost to replace (assuming no other damage to the engine)
Hmmm, should've been a large-ish o-ring that fits in a recess at the top of the screw thread on the plastic filter housing.
I've had exactly the same on mine, a little bit of carbonized oil at the breather pipe joint, the carbon here is nothing to worry about. There is a breather valve and filter that AFAIK ought to stop oil coming up here, but unfortunately they are integral with the rocker cover so fixing them means a replacement rocker cover- I wouldn't disturb the injectors myself, so I'll just have to live with it. But where does the oil end up? There's a chance it could get blown through the intercooler and over time could get everything sticky... I've heard of oil damaging the throttle body seal and leaking from it. Something else to check out sometime I guess.
Yep, I've bought the bits so there's no putting it off now. I've probably wasted a fair bit of money on parts that could be cleaned and refitted, but I figured I'd best do it by the book. I can't promise a Haynes-style guide but I'll try and put something together
And yep there are some scary pics of gummed up 1.6's, but there is either some underlying fault or poor maintenance as a cause and you can find similar pics for other makes' engines.
As for turbo cost, no idea. If it has gone they need to figure the cause first and rectify, otherwise the replacement will go as well.
Not sure either on turbo costs. I've seen you can buy turbo's on ebay for £300 but then you need all the other parts they recommend replacing like the oil feed pipe, sump and pump etc. The ebay sites are pretty good at explaining that unless you replace the other parts, there is no warranty on the turbo. I think these work out to be another £200. I've also heard stories that Ford charge around £1500 for "turbo replacement kit" which contains all the bits :wacko:
Pretty scary really.
Is yours showing signs of failure?
Thank you for the replies.
It's in with a garage and they started looking at it today, they said there'd be no warrenty on the work because Ford themselves say when a turbo goes you should replace the engine. As an employee of the group that made the engine to start with I'm not best pleased and would have avoided that engine if I'd known who it was made by because of the issues that it has.
Haven't been made aware of prices as of yet but I will keep you lot updated with what's gone wrong.
I'm quite hoping that it was low oil that caused it and not something more sinister.
Oof, another one bites the dust, sorry to hear about your problems :-( There's a very long thread on the Honest John forum of people with the same problem, though the chat there is a bit fixated on injector leak as the only possible cause.
AFAIK Ford don't normally recommend engine replacement - the turbo should be warranted if the work is carried out as per Fords Tech Service Bulletin 46/2008 mentioned on page 2 of this convo. Though it has come to engine replacement in some cases where they've tried to clean the engine and its gone on to blow its 2nd and 3rd replacement turbo... Well good luck and hope yours has a happy ending. There was a modification done during production to try and stop it happening- I think they modified the turbo feed pipe so it was away from exhaust heat, to stop it baking the oil in the pipe. If your car is 2005 it'll predate the modification, so that's another possible cause along with carbonised sludgy oil caused by blocked DPF, leaking injector, etc.