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Full Version: 2.0 Tdci Focus Juddering Only On Full Throttle, Only Between 1800-2100Rpm
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vibeone
Hi,

Been lurking here for years, but now I've ended up turning into one of those scumbags who only post when they have a problem. Sorry about that, but I promise I'll try and stick around!

I've had a 1.8 tdci 52 plate for 3 years, driving 80k in that period - loved it, but it got too old so I replaced it.

Got myself a nice 59 plate focus, 2.0 tdci - love the car. Seriously - love the car, but I have a minor (hopefully) problem.

In 5th and 6th, and to a lesser extent 4th, when 'flooring it' having say followed a lorry for a while at even revs (1500ish), when I go to overtake and put the pedal to the floor, the car will pull to 1800ish, then judder its way to 2100rpm. Depending on how bad it is, its either nothing more than a vibration as it pulls to a proper judder.

It doesn't seem to have a massive effect on actual performance, but its annoying and certainly a problem I want fixed within my 3 month warranty period. However, I'd like to try the obvious first before ringing the garage.

The car has done 50k, and obviously only 3.5 years old, however the usual suspects are all 'possibles' -

EGR
MAF
Split intercooler pipe(S)
DMF
Injectors

There is a very slight vibration when the clutch is pushed into the floor (checked when I'm stationary and feeling paranoid!), but I'm fairly confident the DMF is at least 'OK for now'. I don't really have any experience with EGR or MAF, though I know the ford standard intercooler pipes seem to have been made of cardboard, so that's always an option.

There's loads of similar problems talked about on the internet, but nothing completely specific to my issue. So I'm hoping someone can point me in the right direction.

I'm probably going to have a play tomorrow, check the pipes and potentially clean the EGR if its easy to do - any advice on this also appreciated. Generally I wanted to check the obvious before relying on the warranty.

Fuel consumption is around 48MPG, which by all accounts is all good.

It had the fuel filter done at 50k, along with oil/filter. I know the fuel filters are a **** to change on some of these, but once its started, presumnably you're OK (so I can discount the garage doing it badly?).

Thanks for reading, and apologies for the bumbling nature of the post as I remembered more stuff :P
IINexusII
Turbo maybe? they would spool up at around the revs you mentioned
vibeone
As in.. knackered, or known problem with nice easy cheap fix? ;)

Any way to test it?

Stupid thing is, pull away hard, and it's fine 1st 2nd. Obviously the period in which the revs are in the problem range is shorter, but I don't feel a thing. A turbo fault would be constant wouldn't it? (genuine question - I haven't got a clue!)
vibeone
Could it be DPF related despite no warning lights?
vibeone
Final effort at bumping....

Anyone? :(
FOCA

Its liable to be the DMF

When the DMF is new, it works well, as it wears out it develops "slop" this and the swarf it produces can effect the crankshaft position sensor, the CSC, the clutch and eventually, the startor motor

The vibration you feel through the clutch pedal points to the DMF or the CSC, or (less likely) vibration from the engine itself (eg- faulty injectors etc causing an imbalance)

in the lower gears, there is a lighter load, so the revs rise through the band easily, there is less stress on the engine/ trans, and 1500rpm/ 2k is at a very low speed (with practically no load)

As you go into higher gears, it progressively puts more load/ strain on the engine/ transmission especially the DMF, asking it to accelerate at full throttle at 1500rpm in 6th puts an extreme amount of load through the engine/ transmission, especially if there is extra weight in the car/ towing or going up hill

On some diesel engines, Ford has purposely restricted the torque/ power at low revs to stop drivers "laboring" the engine and to protect the DMF (mainly) and the engine/ clutch and transmission

I "destroyed" my old DMF (or at least sped up its demise) with a tuned engine with a lot of torque low down, and by pulling from low revs/ in a high gear

Keeping the revs up and using the 'box may help eg, dropping an extra gear to overtake etc, and put the DMF under less strain,

you could clean out the EGR/ inlet manifold, try a cetane booster/ injector cleaner (such as millers) change the air filter / oil filter (Ford/ garages recommend ridiculously long service intervals IMO, i do mine twice as often as that recommended by Ford)

But i recon its probably the DMF

You could purchase a Code reader (Ford compatible ones are available from £22 online) - may save you some money

vibeone
Thanks for the superb advice, and background info.

A much as DMF problems scare the whats-its out of me, having driven a vibrating DMF car for about 80k and it not getting worse, I guess I was hopeful only the boy racers really had problems with them.

I'm not arguing by any means, but all I would say is that something about it doesn't quite feel DMF. I appreciate forums are a very difficult way of diagnosing a fault because only I can drive the car.

I changed the air filter yesterday, as its was completely knackered, and rammed in. This leads me to thinking the car hasn't been serviced properly, and needs some TLC. I keep cars a long time so I don't mind fixing them for long term gain. It just makes me think what other stuff is dead on it.

It s had oil and fuel filters done

I also had someone have a listen/feel and they suggested injector imbalance too. Or driveshaft related.

My 1.8 had the cam position sensor go, though it just stopped the engine when it went.

So far my list of possibles is:

Cracked inter cooler pipes
EGR mash up
DPF
DMF
injector imbalance
Driveshaft
Cam pos sensor

Oh and I've run redex through it once (full tank) and no difference. Always have ignored the ford service interval, but always good to know I'm not just OCD about oil changes etc!

Thanks again for e great advice!
vibeone
Ps: does a code reader read codes even if the engine management light is not on, and hasn't been on.
vibeone
Spoke to the garage now, and to be fair to them they're gonna pick up the car and get it sorted. Thanks for the help guys!
kevineaton
I have a problem that seems very similar. I have a 1.8 tdci titanium 2009 model, currently 36000 miles on the clock. A couple of months ago I noticed a judder coming from the engine. It was most obvious at steady speed, normally about 30mph in 3/4 gear and to stop the hesitation/judder I always felt that I needed to keep accelerating. The fuel economy seemed very poor, below 38mpg. I took it to a garage after running the basic onboard diagnostic program which said there was a fault with injector 3. After two days they came back and said I need four new injectors, which I reluctantly had fitted. This has helped but I still feel as though something isn't quite right. There is still some hesitation/judder but not as much as before. I can't put my finger on it as have very little knowledge of diesels. Can anyone give me some advice about what it could be, and what I could check etc. The car has been regularly serviced and I don't drive it like a maniac lol. Thanks.
Aldoo
i had a similar problem
2006 1.8 tdci with 80k

had the power loss/juddering at about those revs when pushing on up hills, but onlly seemed to be in 3rd gear.

i think it turned out to be dirt in the fuel - i say i think as i never actually diagnosed it.
but after driving it with the tank constantly topped up over half for a while and also used proper shell instead of tescos fuel

seems like its actually sorted it!
jeebowhite
Vibeone, Any feedback as of yet?
vibeone
No not yet - but I will update as soon as I know anything.

Car is being picked up tomorrow, so hopefully will have something to report by the weekend.

I promise I won't do a disappearing act!
jeebowhite
lol, we wont let you Mark, we can borrow Clive's dogs for a training day!
vibeone

^ Well having said that, it turns out I did do a bit of a disappearing act.

 

In short:

 

*Dealer claims no problem, just how the engine is etc etc..  Didn't test drive it with me, so almost certain didn't experience the fault.

*Car exactly the same, perhaps getting slightly worse but could be in my head as obviously its concerning.

*Dealer changed fuel filter and performed an ECU update

*Fuel consumption seems better (52mpg average!) but may just be me learning the car.

 

So in summary, fault still present, whether it'll get worse enough to be fixed in warranty is the unknown.

 

Still open to suggestions, and I guess the question is... does any of the above (in original post) sound like a fault fixable with either i) EGR blanking or ii) split intercooler pipes.

 

I only ask because they're easy fixes!

 

Cheers, and apologies for the silent treatment!

FOCA

Hello again

 

if you are getting 53mpg Its unlikely to be the intecooler hoses leaking/ loosing boost pressure, you would loose economy and performance if you loose boost , unless it was somehow an intermittent problem (again unlikely)

 

There are advantages in blanking the EGR on these engines, fitting a solid stainless steel blanking plate often helps the throttle response/ eliminates flat spots so its worth doing,

vibeone

Hello again

 

if you are getting 53mpg Its unlikely to be the intecooler hoses leaking/ loosing boost pressure, you would loose economy and performance if you loose boost , unless it was somehow an intermittent problem (again unlikely)

 

There are advantages in blanking the EGR on these engines, fitting a solid stainless steel blanking plate often helps the throttle response/ eliminates flat spots so its worth doing,

 

Hiya,

 

I suspect the DMF isn't quite right btw - but hopefully it'll be stable now my car has a proper driver ;)  I'm just trying to limit the symptoms and extend the life of it obviously.  EGR may well be an option then if only to exclude it as the cause!

vibeone

Time to bump this a bit....

 

The dealer effectively washed his hands of it having said 'it drives great' (it does, except as described).  Anyway, it doesn't matter since the condition it came back in means the car will be going nowhere near his premises, or that of his 'experts' ever again.

 

Anyway, 3 months on and the car is pretty much the same.  It hasn't got worse, and I can almost drive around it anyway - but its still pretty annoying. 

 

I've blanked the EGR, and as stated above the MPG is still good.  The symptoms have changed slightly.

 

1500-1600RPM there is a shudder, almost to the point of a judder/multiple misses, and it appears to have somewhat of an effect on power.  This is hard to be certain on though, as I've said, generally its when the car is pulling in a high gear, and as such acceleration is not great anyway!

 

Between 2000-2200RPM there is a secondary finer vibration - almost like a very specific wheel balancing issue or a drive shaft wobble.

 

Over the past 3ish months I've researched bits and pieces but not got any further forward.

 

Also while changing a headlight, I removed both light clusters and had a look at what pipework I could see.  The intercooler pipe from the intercool left side to the front of engine was solid, but had wet oil/grease around the engine end.  It seemed solid enough - but could this be an issue (from above, it seems not related anyway I guess)

 

Now the EGR is blanked, and based on the information gathered in this thread, I'm thinking injector fault or turbo failure - but at 50k the latter seems unlikely.

 

I'm unlikely to fix an injector until it fails completely, but would be interested in any further views.

 

Cheers!

ippy

Do yourself a favour get the injectors tested properly and if you got 1 thats on its way get it replaced with a proper ford o/e cos i thought the same as you ' i'll wait for it to go kapuut before i change it' because i waited it threw the other 3 out cos they were trying to compesate for 1 bad boy and as you are not sure how your car was treated before you had it eventually theothers will give up and fail cost :angry: £900 for injectors £300 to have um put in coded,checked and sorted now she runs like a new car, :)  while your at it do the glow plugs aswell,  so if i was you knowing wot i know now i would get em checked if you got a bad 1 change it  it'll work out a lot cheaper, ;)

Quint

I would venture that its a transmission issue, and that you need to change the oil, if you haven't done that.  My car had even worse than a shudder. The tranny was changing gears randomly between gears, upshifting upon reaching 2k, then when it felt that there was load, then it would downshift. Manual recommends replacement at 60k but these symptoms manifested at 55k . So I gave specific instructions to the dealer to the ff:

 

1. Change the ATF.
2. If no.1 doesn't work, check and clean sensors.
3. if no. 2 doesn't work, check clutch and pressure plates (because of shudder/slippage).

 

Only had to do ATF. Everything was ok. A/T doesn't have a filter and only a strainer. Hope this helps.

ippy

<_<  not to sure if you can change gearbox oil i think they are sealed unit, i may be wrong but thats wot ive been told and ther's no atf dipstick

FOCA

I thought the OP had a 6- speed manual gearbox?

vibeone

Yep its a manual mate. 

 

BTW, car did over 400 miles yesterday happy as owt.  As long as you keep out of the dodgy zone, the worst you experience is a small vibration.  Thats why I'm really not gonna be paying out loads to diag it at this stage! :)

ikkefc3

I have the same problem. I've changed the injectors (tested faulty), but the shudder is still there. It seems the shudder dissapears after disconnecting the battery for a few minutes.

It seems to reappear after 20-30 miles.

 

Did any of you find the problem?

vibeone
In my case the judder never went away and I did approx 45,000 miles in it before other symptoms appeared and I changed the clutch, flywheel and slave cylinder.

Since then, and immediately after, the judder was gone.

In my case it appears it was the flywheel all along.


Sent from my iPhone using Ford OC
ikkefc3
The flywheel has been changed twice in the last 2 years / 30k miles, so I hope it is something else.


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