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Pirategirl

Car goes in to garage on Monday for diagnostics due to symbol on dash coming up.  Does anyone know what the red cog with red exclamation mark means?  56' Reg Focus....

 

 

Preee

Powertrain malfunction – if on, this light shows that the powertrain has been damaged and the car needs to be serviced as soon as possible.

 

 

Are you having any problems with the  car while driving? , You may have to get this checked and see what codes it is throwing up , did you buy private or from a garage

Stoney871
That warning is the powertrain fault indicator.
Quite often it means an injector fault or glowplug relay if it's a diesel.
If the light has come on them a fault code should be stored.
Pirategirl

Hey guys, thanks for that.  I took it in briefly today and he asked me to bring it back Monday so that he could have it all day.  #

 

I bought it last May from a dealer (Stringfellows).  It is a diesel and he mentioned that it may be glow plugs.... Is this expensive? :wacko:

 

I have been taking it steady as I am losing power and doesn't really want to go much above 2000 revs, he has told me that I can drive it as long as it is local and I take it steady......

Preee

Sounds like it's in gone into Limp Mode , which protects the engine from revving to high when theres a problem and causing damage.

 

I don't know the cost of replacing the glow plugs sorry

Pirategirl

Hmmmm sounds about right to me, thanks for your input.  Will just have to see what they say on Monday.  The guy who owns the garage seems to be pretty decent, so hoping not to be ripped off.

Stoney871
The plugs themselves aren't super expensive and neither is the relay but it's the labour time that often bumps it up.
I'd reckon you'll be looking at £100-£150 all in if they're not trying to sting you.
To put it into perspective, if you were to head to Ford for the same thing then you'd be looking at £90ish just for the diagnostic alone.
Good luck at the garage and keep us posted on the outcome.
Pirategirl

Thanks - They have a pretty good rep in the area and seem very customer orientated so fingers crossed!

 

I need to broach the situation with my lights though....  My front right headlight has never worked properly since I bought it from them - it keeps blowing, I went back about 4 times and they couldn't figure it out, it kept going dim.  I got sick of going back in the end and just left it, but know that it will be hightlighted when I go for my MOT at the end of next month as it is not working at all now. 

 

I shall mention that it has never really worked properly and hoping that he takes responsibility for it.

The Bear

glow plugs are quite easy to change. just got to be super careful when undoing them in my experience. i'd be looking at the haynes manual for that.

 

i'm not used to fords (only just bought one) but i dont recall check engine lights coming on in previous cars....normally you tend to have some starting issues if glowplug(s) die.

 

but get codes read first and take it from there :) 

 

ps, unless there's something perculiar to ford you should just be able to remove the electrical connection going to the plug and then unscrew it..... being very vareful. then replace, tighten up and reattach connector :)

 

hth

Pirategirl

Thanks Bear.  I am really hoping it is something simple, don't want lots of labour costs on top of the parts - will have to see what they say when they hook it up. 

 

I am assuming that they will ring me with a price when they have found out what it is :huh:

The Bear

Thanks Bear.  I am really hoping it is something simple, don't want lots of labour costs on top of the parts - will have to see what they say when they hook it up. 

 

I am assuming that they will ring me with a price when they have found out what it is :huh:

 

I've just re-read your posts Amanda (sorry only scan-read last night whilst drunk lol :)). The mechanic has only guessed what it is so there's no way of knowing if it's the glow plugs without having your codes read. Having said that he must see this a lot if he's a Ford dealer so it sounds like that would be the usual suspect.

 

How hands on are you? If it's glow plugs (or one in particular) you could do it yourself and use a Haynes book of lies manual as guidance.

 

If you don't fancy it yourself I'd make triple sure the dude knows that you want him to tell you what is wrong before going ahead with the work...wouldn't want a situation where he diagnoses AND fixes and then charges you a billion pounds! I'm just very suspicious of garages, dealers especially and don't mind taking an extra 10 minutes to spell out in crayon exactly what I want.

 

:)

Pirategirl

Hmmm I know what you mean!  Sadly I am not hands on at all :(  I love cars but don't really know anything about the mechanics which is why I joined the forum, to get helpful advice from good people. 

 

I am having it looked at on Monday that the garage that I bought it from last May.  He seems pretty decent, but you never know.

 

Fingers crossed ......

Mike77


 
i'm not used to fords (only just bought one) but i dont recall check engine lights coming on in previous cars....normally you tend to have some starting issues if glowplug(s) die.
 
 
hth


If the glowplugs get bad enough they WILL throw up an engine management light on these. As stated if they are that bad, you may well have noticed that it took longer to get going first thing in the morning, especially when the weather has been sub zero. Maybe even some smoke from the exhaust. Glowplugs these days are dual purpose, not only dealing with starting the car, but also burning off excess fuel to reduce emissions, and help lower the amount of road tax you pay. When mine went, it did the same, I had the reduced power (limp mode) but my light wasn't the cog, it was the red light to the right of the milage display, accompanied with the message 'engine systems fault'. Mine is a 1.8 tdci 2006 model. And glowplugs did fix my problem. Hope yours gets sorted.
The Bear

If the glowplugs get bad enough they WILL throw up an engine management light on these. As stated if they are that bad, you may well have noticed that it took longer to get going first thing in the morning, especially when the weather has been sub zero. Maybe even some smoke from the exhaust. Glowplugs these days are dual purpose, not only dealing with starting the car, but also burning off excess fuel to reduce emissions, and help lower the amount of road tax you pay. When mine went, it did the same, I had the reduced power (limp mode) but my light wasn't the cog, it was the red light to the right of the milage display, accompanied with the message 'engine systems fault'. Mine is a 1.8 tdci 2006 model. And glowplugs did fix my problem. Hope yours gets sorted.

 

 

Got ya ;) Good explanation Mike. :)

Pirategirl

Spot on Mike!!  I have noticed excess fumes coming from the exhaust and thought that I possibly hadn't noticed it before, but makes sense now!

 

Taking it in first thing tomorrow.

 

 

Thanks guys! :P

Preee

Just tell them you have been getting a good insight in to what the problem and possible cost could be from here , and when they give you a price , tell them you need to look into it :) , unless you think it's a fair price , there are always other garages for second opinions.

Pirategirl
Thanks Preee, I kind of mentioned that on Friday and his face dropped slightly, haha. I was very proud to say I was getting expert advice :-)
Pirategirl

Okay.... so took the car in this morning at 8.30am, get a phone call at 2.30pm, telling me that they can't diagnose the problem :unsure:   Suggested another garage down the road for me to take it to :(

Preee

Hmmm strange , kinda makes you think , are they worried now they know i have taken advice lol , or perhaps their testing machine was not good enough to read the code's.

 

So you need to get a garage that can read the code's properly , downside is if Ford they may charge up 90 pound.

I'm wondering if it's better to get it in there for them to diagnose. There's nothing stopping you taking it elsewhere when you near faint at the quote they will give you.

The Bear

Okay.... so took the car in this morning at 8.30am, get a phone call at 2.30pm, telling me that they can't diagnose the problem :unsure:   Suggested another garage down the road for me to take it to :(

 

This sounds like rubbish to me.

 

Did they tell you why they couldn't diagnose this and whether they'd read the codes or not?

 

I could just about understand if you took the car in with no check-engine light and you were having some random issue (like a performance issue as they can be hard to track down with no codes to help). But the fact is your car has thrown up a code to tell them what the problem is or at the very least a starting point to be able to diagnose.

 

I take it they didn't charge you for the liberty of having your time wasted?

Pirategirl

The receptionist from the dealership rang me up - if I had spoken to the mechanic then I could of asked him a few questions, but it was obvious that she didn't really know what to say to me, she just kept apologising saying that "they didn't know what was wrong with it and didn't want to start fiddling about with it, but suggested that I take it to Crosshill Garage".

 

They didn't charge me for diagnostics, but I will probably be charged by the other garage.

 

I am taking iit in tomorrow afternoon straight from work - it drives fine, albeit virtually powerless - I just worry that I am doing damage.

The Bear

The receptionist from the dealership rang me up - if I had spoken to the mechanic then I could of asked him a few questions, but it was obvious that she didn't really know what to say to me, she just kept apologising saying that "they didn't know what was wrong with it and didn't want to start fiddling about with it, but suggested that I take it to Crosshill Garage".

 

They didn't charge me for diagnostics, but I will probably be charged by the other garage.

 

I am taking iit in tomorrow afternoon straight from work - it drives fine, albeit virtually powerless - I just worry that I am doing damage.

 

I think it's perfectly reasonable to ask to speak to the mechanic for an explanation.  

 

The code reader you need (if I'm correct in thinking) only costs £80.... I am new to this forum but I'm thinking someone must have one who could help out?

Pirategirl

I agree with what you say about the testing equipment Preee.  They are primarily a garage that centres around sales, but they do have a couple of mechanics who do MOT's, servicing etc. 

 

He did say that they weren't quite sure about the codes on Friday and that it could either be the glow plugs or an electrical fault throwing up the glow plugs....  either way, they couldn't help :(

 

Crosshill is not a Ford Garage and he didn't warn me about a price for diagnosing the problem so will just have to see what happens tomorrow.

Preee

Good luck for tomorrow and keep us updated with what they find

Pirategirl

Thanks guys.

 

Not as simple as I thought it would be, but then again I have to get it sorted out one way or another.

 

Shall keep you up to speed.

wase16ll
to be fair to the garage, they've done the right thing
rather than throwing parts at it in trial and error, they've thrown their hands up and said its beyond them.
diagnostics goes way beyond code readers, not to mention fault codes.
The Bear

to be fair to the garage, they've done the right thing
rather than throwing parts at it in trial and error, they've thrown their hands up and said its beyond them.
diagnostics goes way beyond code readers, not to mention fault codes.

 

Fair point. I've known dealers to throw parts willy nilly at cars in the hope ''one of them will fix it''.

 

You would have thought they'd at least have read the codes for her though.... and if they couldn't then I'd have thought they'd think twice before accepting diagnostic work.

 

Just my opinion though. :)

wase16ll
maybe thought they could, but then found their machine doesnt communicate with this particular car..
seen this happen many times
im in the trade, like you, i get astounded how many garages get involved with diagnostics when they have limited knowledge, its a very specialised field...so to hear a garage admit defeat rather than bill you for ££££s in guess work, think deserves credit.
favourite part of the job, invested thousands to help me with it, but i too am still learning and know my limitations...nothing has beaten me yet, but it will happen one day. especially if i dont carry on investing in the right equipment..something people should bear in mind when they question the cost of plugging in.
Pirategirl

Diagnostics successful!! :D   It's the "Glow Plug Module".

 

They are ordering the part tomorrow and having it fitted Friday morning.

 

£130 + VAT

FOCA

Diagnostics successful!! :D   It's the "Glow Plug Module".

 

They are ordering the part tomorrow and having it fitted Friday morning.

 

£130 + VAT

Exellent! :D  :D  :D

The Bear

Diagnostics successful!! :D   It's the "Glow Plug Module".

 

They are ordering the part tomorrow and having it fitted Friday morning.

 

£130 + VAT

 

Nice result. As I said before my knowledge (to now) is not great on Fords. However, on Vauxhall's diesels I've worked on it's just a relay that takes a few minutes to replace. :)

 

maybe thought they could, but then found their machine doesnt communicate with this particular car..
seen this happen many times
im in the trade, like you, i get astounded how many garages get involved with diagnostics when they have limited knowledge, its a very specialised field...so to hear a garage admit defeat rather than bill you for ££££s in guess work, think deserves credit.
favourite part of the job, invested thousands to help me with it, but i too am still learning and know my limitations...nothing has beaten me yet, but it will happen one day. especially if i dont carry on investing in the right equipment..something people should bear in mind when they question the cost of plugging in.

 

 I'm in college still learning but I think there's lots that the DIYer can do now also, especially with the net and youtube and stuff. If I wasn't looking to go in to the industry I'd defo get a code reader for home.

One thing you say (about spending money on the tools)... I didn't realise until I got in to a conversation with my teacher that even big garages/dealers would expect you to provide your own tools. I can understand independent garages doing that but big dealers too. Lucky I've built up a bit of kit over the last few years but still thought that was strange. Interesting! :)

Pirategirl

It took them a while, but were confident once they had found what it was - relief! :)

Preee

Thats good news they have found the problem , and hope you don't have any more problems .

 

Now thats  sorted you will have to start our endless list of modifications to your car :)

Stoney871
Told ya it was likely something to do with glow plugs,(is there a difference between a glow plug relay and a module?) ;)
Pirategirl

Would love to do some mods Preee, just need to save a little money first!  Would like to change the bumpers and and headlights.

Pirategirl

So glad you asked Stoney..... you know I am hitting Google right now!  Hahahaha

Pirategirl

Here you go :P

 

A normal glow plug relay only controls the function of the glow plugs. A glow plug control module is a requirement for emissions regulations. It communicates with the power train control module (PCM) in addition to its normal duty of controlling the glow plugs. The glow plug control module senses faults in the glow plug system or individual glow plugs, and sends the data to the PCM, where it can be read with diagnostic tools.

FOCA

Here you go :P

 

A normal glow plug relay only controls the function of the glow plugs. A glow plug control module is a requirement for emissions regulations. It communicates with the power train control module (PCM) in addition to its normal duty of controlling the glow plugs. The glow plug control module senses faults in the glow plug system or individual glow plugs, and sends the data to the PCM, where it can be read with diagnostic tools.

Clever stuff - so if one glow plug fails the PCM knows which one, but it may send the car into limp home mode

 

On my "antique" all the glow plugs are wired together in series, if one blows the ECU/ OBD scanner does not know which one,

 

but - the engine will start (a bit lumpy/ smokey at 1st) then run good once it warms up - and it does not go into limp home mode, the relay for the glow plugs is probably cheap too - progress....    

Pirategirl

Mine is extremely smokey at the moment, and has been in limp home mode since last Friday........  Can't wait to get it in the garage - certainly does not feel like a sport at the moment!

Mike77
A sport isn't a sport on a focus diesel lol, glad its getting sorted, might be wise to prepare yourself for a change of glowplugs too once the new part goes on, but fingers crossed they will be ok for a while to let your purse fill up again haha. All these parts are common to go wrong on the focus, glowplugs, related relays, modules and the wiring loom related to the above. Keep us informed of how it goes.
Loz Cheung
Glad to hear you've made progress!
Done well to be driving in limp mode all this time :p
Pirategirl

Hmmmm Mike77 - not sure now others drive their 'diesel Sport' but mine was very responsive ;)  so are you saying that I am now in for a whole host of problems now that the glow plug module has gone?  Really hope not, have had it less than a year and have been really happy with it up till now.

 

Had a 2.3 Saab 93 before this and although the focus was not as powerful it was much more responsive...

Pirategirl

Loz Cheung - not happy driving in limp mode :(   Worry about damaging, but have been told by two garages that as long as I keep it to between 1.5 snd 2,000 rev's that I should be ok.  The main problem I could encounter is that the car just won't start.

 

Roll on Thursday night when I take it into the garage!

Stoney871

Hmmmm Mike77 - not sure now others drive their 'diesel Sport' but mine was very responsive ;)



Mines pretty responsive too, them again I do drive it hard.
The Bear

Glow plugs are only there to help with cold starting. The piston compresses the air in the cylinder past the flashpoint of the diesel, the diesel's then injected and ignites. The glow plugs are a heater element that helps with the heating of the air.

 

If you have no glow plugs working the only issue I can see is it not starting.

 

If you can start it then I wouldn't be concerned about running it.

 

UNLESS (as I think another member mentioned) the glow plugs in your car do more than just help with cold start. This is a pure guess but if they help with burning unburned fuel (which I think was what was mentioned before) and they're not currently working that could be where your performance issues are coming from as the various sensors in your car may be receiving dodgy readings and inputting the wrong air/fuel mixture.

 

Can anyone confirm if my guess is right or wrong?

 

Either way I can't see any ''damage'' being done other than if it's in limp mode it may be a bit dangerous from a lack of acceleration point of view.

 

HTH

wase16ll
modern engines allow glow plugs to continue to heat for a short while after engine has started, talking in seconds rather than minutes...all to do with fuel economy whilst engine is cold
Mike77
Its not just to do with helping the engine while its cold, they will operate whenever the cars brain senses they need too. Old skool diesels, they just had glow plugs for starting ONLY. But not nowadays. All to do with emissions.

And NO, I'm not saying your in for a massive surge of parts that need replacing lol, fingers crossed everything will be back to normal after new part is fitted. Only reason I mentioned it was, the machine that mine went on for diagnosis was an expensive piece if kit, but couldn't pinpoint the specific part of the glowplug system that was at fault. Just gave me a starting point, so I went for the cheapest first, and got lucky. So just hope your garage has got it right.

And mine is quite sporty too lol, more so after the remap. But in all honesty it was a bit of a waste of time for me, as with age, I'm driving a little more conservatively haha, though I have seen an improvement in MPG, at 36 years of age, I'm almost ashamed to admit that publicly haha.
wase16ll
mike.
not sure where you got this information re glow plugs, but at most, glow plugs will continue to heat for a maximum of 5 minutes at reduced voltage from cold start, for lower emmission purposes, after that, they would be no benefit of switching plugs on and off
The Bear

It would be good to clarify exactly what their roles are. My understanding was they were literally just there for cold starts (but I don't mind being wrong... the other half tells me I am often enough :D )

 

I can certainly see the logic of them burning unburned fuel on the exhaust stroke and the performance issues that could follow if it didn't do that. I'll do some research.

Mike77

mike.
not sure where you got this information re glow plugs, but at most, glow plugs will continue to heat for a maximum of 5 minutes at reduced voltage from cold start, for lower emmission purposes, after that, they would be no benefit of switching plugs on and off


It is my understanding that the glowplugs will operate anytime the brain senses it needs too. Your theory is basically saying that the car will only have reduced emissions for 5 mins max. Don't forget, on the 1.8 tdci they do not have the benefit (thankfully) of a DPF, to futher help with emissions. Hence the reason other things had to be done to qualify it for its euro 4 classification. I stand to be corrected on this, but from my research, this is how it works.


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