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Full Version: 1.6 Tdci Loss In Power... Again!! :(
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Mad85

Must be the most unreliable engine I have ever come across. My 1.6TDCI is playing games ... again... it feels unresponsive and very hesitant to accelerate! The engine has done 94K miles, I service it regularly, every 5K using Total full synthetic oil. The car has had the DPF removed and a remap to get out a bit more power. Also recently I changed the Mass Airflow sensor.  Not sure if it has anything to do but recently fixed the alternator (new regulator and rectifier). I can hear a slight whine and a knock which sounds like coming from the top of the engine. The turbo feels to be working normally, it boosts normally at least. There is a slight flatter sometimes when I take my foot of the accelerator but I think that's because I removed the dpf.

 

I came up with the following possibilities which should help/fix the problem:

 

1. new injector seals/o-rings.

2. using BG244 fuel treatment.

3. using BG109 engine flush on my next service (next month).

 

any ideas?

jeebowhite

When was the last time the likes of the fuel filter was replaced? and the air filter for that matter?

Mad85

I change the air filter, fuel filter and oil filter every 10K or 1 yr. So the last time I changed the fuel filter and air filter was in October. Oil filter is also changed mid-year or @5K interval, which is now due in April.

jeebowhite

Sorry to ask perhaps a pertinent question, but where they installed correctly.

 

Generally, resistance to behave and respond quickly tends to come from the fact that the resources it needs when you ask it to go, are not there, that can be either fuel or air...

 

Whether this is specifically down to the filters, or the injectors is a different matter, but its a good place to start!

Mad85

well, the filters were installed by my mechanic who I hope knows what he's doing but he is quite knowledgeable where it comes to hdi/tdci engines.

jeebowhite

ok so we should be able to eliminate those...

 

Are there any error codes at all?

Mad85

Just checked this morning, no error codes. I also use Torque PRO. I used to get about 119BHP (thanks to engine remapped) but this morning the best I saw was 97BHP. At least I know its not just my imagination :(

Stoney871
I'd say get the turbo checked,
Sounds like it's had its day.
Mad85

i'll check it again. does not sound like the turbo. I checked it a couple of months ago when I changed the MAF sensor. impeller had a bit of play but nothing out of the normal. No out-in play. There was also some oil in there but i believe its normal for modern diesels?

Stoney871
Tbh I still reckon turbo.
A small bit of end float is acceptable but it's hard to predict what movement you're getting on spin up.
Mad85

if the turbo is going, would nt i get a lot of smoke? hardly any smoke comes out even when I rev it, unless its Under load (accelerating up hill), where i was told it smokes a bit but nothing which should worry me. How can I make sure if the turbo is ok or not? 

geos

Check the "tubocharger boost pressure regulator valve" . It's in the back of the engine under the common rail.

It's made by Pieburg and it is known to cause problems like loss of power and black smoke.

Also check the vacuum pipes and hoses.

Mad85

Thanks a million geos. Forgot about that. Do you have any suggestions how to check it? is it difficult to remove?

 

I also had a look at the turbo and it looks ok, spins freely etc. I also took the car for mot this week and no smoke came out.

 

Last week I also does a can of BG244 and since than I am hearing a sort of tapping noise, not sure if its the BG244 doing its job though. Will see after a refuel i guess.

geos

It's easy to check. If you   replace the vacuum hose from the wastegate actuator with a length of hose and try to create vacuum. You should see some actuator rod movement. 

To get to the turbocharger boost pressure regulator valve you will have to get under the car and remove the plastic shield.

On my 1.6 tdci 90HP unit it's on the right side of the car just bellow the common rail.

The tapping noise is a common issue with this type of engine. It's probably carbon buildup. I hear there are some non intrusive methods for dealing with this. It involves some cleaver  machine + chemicals  that are capable of cleaning the fuel/exhaust system. 

Mad85

Ok, back to this topic... After a month and a few hundred euros less in the pocket I have (seems like) eliminated a 'Turbo Over Boost' condition which had come up. This is what was done:

1. Applied BG244 engine cleaner.

2. Changed all four glow plugs (an error came up suddenly).

3. Changed the Intercooler hose pipe which had cracked.

To be honest I have not seen a big difference which means that there must be something else. I will try to check the boost pressure regulator when I have time. Thanks for all the help

Mad85

So, back from the garage and was told that there is excessive carbon build up on the turbo oil feed pipe which means that some how exhaust is leaking from the turbo (shaft?) outside, rather than through the exhaust system. The mechanic is adamant that this means that the exhaust system is clogged and needs to be cleaned/replace parts of it.

 

Does this make sense? DO I need to worry about carbon build up also inside the turbo ?

 

thanks a lot

jeebowhite

I would give it a crack with BG244 / BG245, that will clear the carbon out, and shouldnt require any more than about £25 for the cleaner... I anticipate that your mechanic still insists on charging a lot more.

Mad85

BG244 already tried.  So i would guess it needs some manual cleaning

Mad85

Also, when I applied the BG244 I could hear the injectors were much louder! is that normal?

jeebowhite

yeah as its decarbonising, you would expect a little more noise.

Mad85

I understand. I dont suppose it would be a good idea to dose again though right? i think I will just take it to the exhaust workshop and have it checked there. Hope I get something. Really fed up because apart from these problems, I really love this Ford  :(

jeebowhite

well another tin wont do it any harm, but you have one other alternative that will do your car more good than bad, and may still cost you less than the garage... Terraclean...

 

http://www.fordownersclub.com/forums/topic/41765-terraclean-seems-to-be-spreading/

Mad85

unfortunately we dont have such services (that I know of) where I live  :(

jeebowhite

that is a shame, perhaps in this circumstance a trip to your mechanic is the best bet, but I would say not before pricing up the new parts that they advised they would clean! if you can get new parts for very little price difference, it may seem overkill but at least its one less thing that will pack up later!

ffz

You can get a the oil feed kit for about £100 on eBay and other Ford parts suppliers. 

geos

Hi,

One of the possible causes for excessive carbon build up on the turbo oil feed pipe is the excessive where of the injectors washers (one is made of cooper and one of some sort of plastic). This leads to gasses escaping from the cylinder and contaminating the oil which, in turn, leads to the turbine running without lubtication.

I do not think I need to explain how bad this is (you will end up changing your turbine + lubrication system cleanup +  two [mandatory] oil changes).
The louder injector noise, that you've noticed, might be generated in fact by the gasses escaping from the cylinder.

By the way do you also get exhaust gasses in to cabin?
You could check  the turbine shaft status easily by removing the air duct between the air filter and the turbine. Try to move the turbine shaft and if you have any play then you are looking at a turbo rebuild/replace job.

Cheers,

Geos

Mad85

ffz, Thanks but the oil feed pipe is quite new and dont need to buy a new one. The problem is on the outside where I noticed the carbon buildup not on the inside. Sry for the confusion. 

 

Geos, Thanks for the comments, I have  been suspecting that my injector seals need replacing and had bought a set (actually for the 1.6 HDI but they are the same anyway). was thinking of doing it my self but reading on some forums I found that it would take the average diyer around 2 days work to get them sorted and since there is a lot of removing to get to them I was thinking of giving the job to a professional. Two questions - should I replace the fuel lines when I have the washers replaced? Also is it worth having the injectors cleaned "just in case" ?

 

By the way I had checked the turbine condition and there is a little side to side movement but I think its normal. There is no inside/outside movement. That said I need to make the actuator-movement test. If I find that the turbo needs rebuilding I think I will go for a new one. I found some pretty cheap genuine new ones on ebay for about £400.

 

Thanks a lot

Mad85

geos

Hi,

 

In my case there is no play on turbo shaft. I guess that some play will be acceptable as the shaft normally sets on a oil film. 

1) should I replace the fuel lines when I have the washers replaced?

  No need to.

2) Also is it worth having the injectors cleaned "just in case" ?

Ford does not recommend cleaning the injectors as this might lead to calibration issues. You should have them checked out by a specialist .

 

Cheers,

Mad85

Thanks a lot. I think I will have my mechanic have a look at the seals and replace them for me. I will also ask him to keep an eye on the injectors and if there is any carbon buildup in there

Mad85

Had another look and its clear the carbon is coming out from the turbo since there is a black patch on the turbo on the side where the pipe is (I sometimes clean the engine with some engine cleaner so i know it must have happened recently). Injector seals still in the plan though but I have a real possibility that I would require cleaning up the turbo.

Mad85

exhaust workshop told me that the CAT was quite dirty and decided to drill right through it! Remap should keep my vehicle MOT friendly!

Mad85

Car is same as before  :angry: ... Thursday going to replace injector seals and after that thinking about the turbo and clearing the egr. Is it wise to just replace the turbo with a new one just because I suspect it on its way out? Dont really want to spend senseless cash but if it is really going, than it would be much better and cheaper to replace it before disaster happens. Car has done around 100k miles so its probably normal that it would be going???

dreadz

well i'm having similar probs... had new turbo and everything needed replaced- 2000 mile into new turbo i get bearing noise. garage have stripped and said bearing failed- oil pickup etc blocked yet again. replaced all under warranty- but had noticed that injector 3 is yet again leaking???  had all new seals- ehat causes this seal to leak all the time?

 

what i am after is when i get the oil changed, is the pickup filters easily accessable to change them too? this filter seems to be doing its job  but getting blocked very easy?? obviously the leaking injector is causing the carbon issues -so that needs resolving 1st.

 

stressing me out big time this car..may just get rid and get a petrol engine instead!

geos

http://www.caparts.ru/ford/index/manufactur/ford

 

Use the above link to find the banjo bolt that holds the pickup oil  filter.
Some have just removed this filter altogether.

It's amazing how PSA managed to fool so many with their engines .The same engine is used by Citroen,Peugeot,Ford,Mazada,Volvo,Mini.

Do the smart thing and change your oil ( and oil filter) every 5000 miles.
Also try to use higher revs (change gear above 2500 rpm) when driving in town.

Regards,

Mad85

OK! More about the progress of my Saga with this engine... Loss in power and rubbish economy (38mpg - used to get at least 43!).  I have now

1.removed the catalytic converter

2.cleared the EGR

3.replaced injector seals.

 

Apart from that I had:

1. Used BG244 injector cleaner - might go for another can!

2. removed DPF

3. replaced a split intercooler hose

4. replaced the airflow sensor

5. had it remapped

 

The problem is that I dont feel the 'sudden' burst of power which I usually felt when I put down the paddle. It is also rubbish at taken off (actually stall it when I am not careful!) and its really rubbish with the AC on.  I have heard that rising temperatures will affect economy and power but this much? Where I live it got up to about 34 degrees celcius. I only feel a slight improvement at night.

jeebowhite

unfortunately fella, that sounds like you might be suffering a blown turbo. First of all, disconnect the air hose and stick your finger in the hose - is it oily? if so you may be suffering an issue I also seem to have. If there is oil, stick your fingers in the turbo and try move the impeller, if you get a little bit of play (by the sounds of what Foca said in the issue I have) it could be expected as there is a little bit of play, but if you find that something doesnt feel right (a lot of movement, or damage) then you may be in need of a new turbo.

 

As to how you go about this, is your choice, I would personally recommend looking into getting an extended warranty on the car if you can find someone who will offer it. If the car goes pop in the coming months, it will most likely be covered, and you pay an excess, plus the total cost of your policy and you still save yourself hundreds of pounds!

Mad85
Thanks for replying!

Believe me if i were certain that the turbo needs replacing i would buy it right now but its not a cheap replacement.. not something i want to change 'just in caes' hehe. There is no play and there is oil in the hose but its normal due to the breather. What i think i am experiencing is sticky vanes of the variable geometry. Ill think about it. Might just get a new turbo after all...
Mad85

apart from changing it of course, is there a way of knowing for sure that the pressure converter needs replacing?

Mad85

Finally found some time to change the boost pressure regulator but it made no difference... I also have another problem with the car not starting at all/cutting out now which I am discussing in another thread! :(

filesy

Can anybody tell me where the turbocharger boost pressure regulator valve is located on a focus 1.8 tdci please, im having similar problems, thanks.

Mad85

On the 1.6 tdci, its at the back of the engine. Best way to get access, just remove the under-shield and there it would be. But then again the 1.6 and 1.8 are completely different engine.

filesy
Yeah, it's not the same as the 1.6, thanks.


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