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ajt

Driving back to work today after liunch, put foot down a bit in second (to get through traffic light, which was still on green but about to change), I felt the car start to pull, heard a whoosh sound followed by a muffled pop and then loss of power.

 

I limped back into work, getting a whining noise on acceleration and acceleration was very poor, struggling to get to 20 up a hill.

 

I then limped home about 5.30 and took the engine cover off expecting to see the intercooler pipe blown off, but it wasn't. I looked around the pipes I could get to, but could not see any splits or displaced pipes.

 

I also removed the inlet to the turbo and could spin the turbo. The spindle has no in/out movement, but does have slight up/down wobble.

 

I should also like to point out that over the last couple of month I have noticed a tghe car doesn't pull as good as it has in the past. (just put it down to cold weather) and fuel consumption has gone up to (again put it down to cold weather).

 

Last oild change was 5 months ago and the intercooler pipe was also replaced about same time, due to split in elbow.

 

Anybody have any thoughts as to what to check in the morning when the sun rises?

 

(TDCi 1.6 2007)

salsheikh

i would have guessed a opped hose but you have already checked this. have you checked the hoses at the intercooler?

is it smoking a lot? if i is them im saying hose has popped off, it happened to me.

 

whereabouts in warks are you? im in nuneaton

stef123

I hate to say it but i don't think the turbo should have movement in it like you describe :o

 

although that movement might disappear when the oil is flowing round it..

ajt

Thanks for the quick replies guys.

 

@salsheikh

I'm in Rugby, just down the road!

I have checked the intercooler hose on the drivers side, and guess there is one on the passenger side, but due to fading light I could not see it.

Not smoking so as I noticed.

 

 

@stef123

The play is no worse than when I got the car just over a year ago. I have never had a turbo before, so have no feel for how much play is permissible.

TDCiST

Best to get the error codes read, then we may know more to be able to help...

 

just to satisfy my curiosity, have you thought about checking the fuel filter? If its got any shiny metal swarf in it, that can signify the end of the HP Pump, and my old focus wooshed and popped before losing all power when it went...

salsheikh

there will be very minimal movement on the turbo...a millimeter or so but not much

 

if you can take the front grill off, pull it towards you and it will start to come away..

you should be able to check the hose on the i/c on both sides.

 

you not got the flashlight app on your smart phone? i find it very handy!

ajt

Ok, pulled grille out abit, but still cannot see hose on passenger side, as body work obstructs it. I'll have to take airbox out I think.

salsheikh

best leave it for tomorrow then mate

ajt

@TDCiST

I never considered the fuel pump, as it still runs. It just runs like a dog, lacking any power, struggling to get to 30 on the level and 20 on a gradient. The MIL light is not on, but I have a code reader and will go out later and check. GF here at the moment, she'll be gone by 9, off saving lifes (nurse)!

salsheikh

i'm ready for my bed bath!

ajt

OK checked scan codes and came up with the following

 

1. P0319 Rough Road Sensor B Signal Circuit (Probably triggered a couple of weeks ago when I hit a massive pot hole)

2. P1936 Clutch Switch / Sensor Signal (no idea)

3. P1402 Exhaust Gas Recirculation Metering O r i f i c e Restricted (<- This looks interesting)

 

The above word had to be spaced, because it was removed if not!

 

I cleared the codes and then drove around the block. No codes returned.

 

What would be the symptoms if the wastegate diagphram was punctured or ripped?

ajt

i'm ready for my bed bath!

 

You'll be lucky, I have to do it myself!

FOCA

There is a switch on the clutch pedal, to tell the ECU when the pedal is up or down, (no2)

 

If the turbo diapram is broken the wastegate will not open (fixed vane turbo so the boost may increase untill the hoses blow off) or the vanes will be stuck in one position (good pickup but too moch boost at the top end (like fixed vane with no operating wastegate) OR very slow pickup but boost safe)

 

No 3 - EGR - put a blanking plate on it period - this is the code for a faulty or restricted EGR (or interestingly, for a plate already being fitted)

 

A solid, stainless steel plate will cure all sorts of problems

 

A boost gauge is a great item to have fitted to a turbo car and can help keep an eye on turbo performance and help diagnose problems

STEADS

Have you got a scanner that shows what fuel pressure you are getting it  has to be a certain psi to even fire up i think if i remember correctly when i had problems on my 2.0 about 4000 ish but if its firing and low could point towards your pump being naff worth a look

ajt

OK was up at the crack of dawn and check all the boost pipes for any splits. Couldn't see any so bit the bullet and put it all together and took it down my local indt garage. The guy kindly read my coeds and said they pointed to the Mass airflow sensor. He suggested that i disconnect it and see if it made any difference.

 

So I did. I then drove a small circuit around the local area and found that it pulled better (still not like it should and still way down on power). So I have ordered a new one and should be picking it up about 11.30 this morning.

 

The car has now warmed up, and is smoking like crazy!

 

The garage also spotted that injector 4 was leaking, and needed a new sealing washer. He suggested I get the washer ordered and they would fit it.

salsheikh

ok thats good. atleast your getting somewhere and its nearly fixed.

FOCA

OK was up at the crack of dawn and check all the boost pipes for any splits. Couldn't see any so bit the bullet and put it all together and took it down my local indt garage. The guy kindly read my coeds and said they pointed to the Mass airflow sensor. He suggested that i disconnect it and see if it made any difference.

 

So I did. I then drove a small circuit around the local area and found that it pulled better (still not like it should and still way down on power). So I have ordered a new one and should be picking it up about 11.30 this morning.

 

The car has now warmed up, and is smoking like crazy!

 

The garage also spotted that injector 4 was leaking, and needed a new sealing washer. He suggested I get the washer ordered and they would fit it.

If there is loss of boost for any reason (split pipes, faulty actuator/ turbo etc) you will loose power and produce a lot of smoke (the same amount of diesel gets squirted in to the engine but not enough air)

 

This, and many other things, may not show up in fault codes, fault codes can be misleading, you may be lucky and the sensor is faulty, but the sensor may be working fine and the new sensor will read the same values

 

The ECU can often not determine whether a sensor is faulty or not, it may be a loose connection, or snapped wire, the sensor/ wires etc may be working perfectly, and there is another fault (eg not enough flow/ too much or too little  boost etc etc) that the sensor is reading like it should, - it always makes me concerned when a sensor is blamed for a problem, sometimes, the plug onto the sensor is loose or corroded, and fitting a new sensor seems to "fix" it but the old sensor was ok, and cleaning the contacts would have fixed it, (without paying for a new sensor)  

 

The exessive smoke is a bad sign (personally the 1st thing i would do is fit an EGR blanking plate (about £5) (stainless, solid), how much is a new sensor? )

 

As others have said in the forum, there is too much reliance on fault codes but that is just a handy tool and no substitute for knowlege & experience

 

Anyway i hope this fixes the car  

 

Just as a matter of interest - is it a VNT turbo , is the actuator a pnumatic one?

 

Is it a euro4? is the EGR pnumatic or electronic?    

ajt

I have changed the Mass air flow sensor and replaced the seal washer on injector 4 (cylinder 1). Less smoke now, only noticelable when changing gears, but engine limited to 3200 RPM and acceleration really slow.

 

Fault codes were cleared before last run, and have not come back.

 

@FOCA

I thought I had a garret turbo, but might be wrong. I think it's pneumatic as it seems to have a vacuum pipe to it. I think the car is Euro 4 and the EGR has a plug on it so guessing it's electronic.

 

So in conclusion the car is in limp mode with no fault codes!

Does it take a while before limp mode clears or does that have to be done at a garage?

ajt

Just read that disconnecting battery for twenty minutes can clear limp mode (ow er missus!). So see you in 30.

salsheikh

Alan,

 

i agree with Foca. i had a split hose once and this caused it to smoke  - i drove 120 miles to the outlaws like this once..could only fix it once i got there..in the frigging rain! duck tape to the rescue!

 

spray some soapy water on the pipes and get the car running to see if any new bubbles appear.

ajt

OK still in limp mode after battery disconnect for 30 minutes.

 

So current state is NO fault codes, but in limp mode. Smoke only when changing gears, and not that much just a puff or two.

FOCA

It might not be in limp (home) mode - it might just be lack of power without actually triggering "limp mode"

 

Does the glow plug light flash or stay on after you start the engine?

 

It would be good to know how much boost you are producing - you can pick up a boost gauge for under £30 online, a mechanical one is easy to set up/ connect i would get a 30psi one ballpark you shoul be producing 18-25psi

 

As Sal says spray some soapy water on the hoses - splits in the pipes can be hard to spot

 

If you are loosing boost the MAP sensor man now be reading it now and the ECU reducing the fuel = less fuel = less smoke but "no" power 

 

Is it really slow to pick up ("gutless")  

 

disconnecting the battery resets the ECU, this will knock it out of limp mode and resetting it also makes the ECU "start again from scratch" if you know what i mean  

 

How fast is the car flat out? does it go uphills? it could be a boost leak (some loss of power) turbo fault eg siezed vanes/ fault in the VNT / loads of other things including the EGR

 

is that the PSA engine? the one with the DPF? - Can you take some pictures of it  

 

If i were you i would order an EGR blanking plate (solid, stainless steel) it may fix your problem and it only costs a fiver.  

 

How much was the MAF? try the old one back on - might run just the same and you could get your money back or resell the new one   

salsheikh

Alan, if you have an android smart phone then get the torque app and the bluetooth obd2 adapter, this will let you check and clear fault codes and will also let you check various other things..and also boost pressure

 

http://torque-bhp.com/

 

https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=org.prowl.torque&hl=en

 

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Mini-Car-ELM327-OBD2-OBDII-Bluetooth-Diagnostic-Auto-Scanner-Adapter-CANBUS-TOOL-/261185372178?pt=UK_Diagnostic_Tools_Equipment&hash=item3ccfdc8012

ajt

@FOCA

You have given me  alot to think about, but I think it's limp mode becuase the revs rise to 3200 RPM, and then the power drops and the revs will not rise above 3200, but they are quite happy to sit there.

 

It is gutless on acceleration, but this would also be limp mode.

 

As for putting old MAF back on, I was toying with this idea, cost £90 inc vat, which was best price I could get.

 

My car is DPF.

 

As for turbo, the acctuator may have a problem. It might be sticking, I say this as when I disconnected battery earlier, I heard a definet clunk come from the turbo area. Should I be able to move the actuator fairly easily with a scre driver? Becuase I can. There is noticeable resistance, and could probably not do it with just my fingers, cant reach for one.

ajt

I do have a code reader the FF2 I think. It has live data, but not sure what I should be looking for, also absolutely peeing down at the moment, as it has most of the day.

 

I also have a modified ELM that is used with the Russian software. Only really used it to set the doors to auto lock!

salsheikh

fancy coming over to nuneaton...you can try out the bt adapter i have...we can se if the boost reading show?

 

i need a favour though...i have some fk rear led lights that need checking to see if they work...we could meet halfway if this is ok for you? i'm available most of the morning until about 1ish.

ajt

Thanks for the offer but unfortunatley I can't do tomorrow, and with car driving as it is I am reluctant to take it very far from home.

 

When you say you need to check lights? Do you mean you want someone to stand behind the car and say they come on!? Or am I miss reading your post?

salsheikh

i have a set of fk lights but when i bought them they said it fits 05 models onwards and they didnt work in my 08 model. as yours is pre facelift i thought i could try them to confirm they work or not.

ajt

OK, understand. Once I get my car sorted, I could pop over and you could try them. Would like to try your blutooth reader anyway.

salsheikh

cool mate, we will do that.

ajt

Have been out again this morning just after 7, to put old MAF back on. I was being real quite and only took 5 minutes. Dropped the bonnet to close it, again probably not from the height I would normally do it, so as not to wake anybody, but it didn't close properly! Off went the alarm, and as you would expect, I couldn't find the keys! It seemed to take about an hour to find them (20 seconds in real time).

 

Anyway took it for a run and still in limp mode, but no smoke (only when changing gears or hitting 3200 rpm). So take the new one back. Every cloud has a silver lining.

 

I have disconnected battery again in hope of clearing limp mode, still no new error codes. Going to leave it off for a couple of hours.

 

After getting out of the car and about to open my front door I did note a clunk again, which I believe is the Wastegat/actuator on the turbo closing. Is this normal?

ajt

I filmed wastegate actuator, and as usual did not clunk when being filmed!

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=6w9UXWhO7Yc

salsheikh

Alan, i listened to the video but there wasnt much sound...other than an interference type of noise.

sadly, i dont know what that part is so cant help much :-(

ajt

Sorry, no sound, but as stated no clunk either. Just posted video as I thought someone may find it intersting. The nice part is that the rod seems to glide fine, rather than stick or judder. I still think it sticks sometimes after being driven. I'll keep and ear on it.

FOCA

The diaphram is very unlikely to be split/ leaking, with that much travel,(which is a good sign) the bit at the end is probably the actuator re- setting itself

 

So its inconclusive - but i would say the diaphram/ actuator is ok by looking at the video -(for some reason it was silent on my pc - i will try to sort that EDIT - there is no sound - it would be helpful/ may tell me something) ideally you need to measure the boost pressure somehow to see if the turbo/ boost control systems are suppliing the correct amount of boost  

ajt

OK not good news. Took it to indy this morning who hooked it up to his diagnostic machine and said, there were no codes to clear. He made a quick call to someone, said, "Focus TDCi, Zetec, limp mode but no errors.......OK" and hung up.

 

He then pulled MAF plug to generate an error, which it did, then cleared it. Still limp mode. At this point he said he was busy all morning and return it at lunch time, which I did. I left it with him and an hour later got a call that I didn't want to get. He thinks it's the turbo. !"££""*&^&*.

 

I went to pick it up and pointed out that the end play in the turbo was no worse than it was 18 months ago when I got it. He suggested I spend £45 and book it in at Ford for diagnosis, which I have done. They can't take it till Thursday though, due to over booking the next couple of days.

 

So when I got home I thought I would take the EGR off (as you do), to see if it was sludged up. I gave up when the metal shime slid from my finger tip and slid somewhere under the engine block! So I just put the screws back in and nipped them up. The sick thing is I kept thinking don't drop the gasket!

 

Still in denial and hope it is something else, as indy said I was looking at £1000 to get it done properly. I just can't believe it's the turbo,  as I said in OP there was a surge in power then a definate pop, followed by instant lack of power. This ties up with injector seal giving u, imagine some crud being pushed out of the seal, temporarily sealing it, until it pops out the side and then seal is now broken. What could go pop in the turbo?

 

Just in case, anybody want to recommend source for new/recon turbo?

salsheikh

there's lots of places like cr turbo's, turbo technics etc but if it is gonna cost you big bucks then you might as well get a replacement engine....

FOCA

"its the turbo" could mean lots of things - its the turbo what....? (the turbo wastegate, the compressor, the turbine, the vanes, the actuator, the shaft, the bearing the seals  )

 

Is the turbo producing too much boost (then the ECU triggers limp home mode) or too little bost (no power)  

 

Saying its the turbo is a bit like saying "its the engine" :lol:

 

You can pick up a secondhand turbo from about £100 on ebay, depending what is wrong with the turbo you can get recon or new cartriges (a turbine /compressor & bearing assembly that you fit into your existing turbine housing, then fit the compressor housing on )

 

I have a spare complete turbo assembly (exhaust manifold, turbine/ compressor with housing actuator etc) that i bought on ebay for £100 (its different from yours) if my old "turbo" failed, i would fit it myself but if i had to pay someone i recon i could get it done for £50 to £100 (i know "people") - it may cost you a bit more than that, but i would imagine you would have a fair bit of change out of £1000, (like £500-£600 change :lol: )

 

If the turbo bearing siezed it does not mean you need a new engine  

 

If one little biy of the turbo fails you dont have to throw the whole turbo assembly away (whatever they say) if one bit of the engine fails yoiu don't have to throw the whole engine away - where do you draw the line, throw the car away and buy a new one?

 

Dont worry about main stealers and their extortionate prices, whatever it is, you can get it done cheaper, and often better

ajt

@FOCA, I'm not a spiritual person per-say, but I like what you preach and it gives me comfort in my time of need  :innocent: (yes, until I read your post I was that depressed).

 

I have taken the decision not to drive the car know until the stealers have come back with diagnosis. If it is the turbo then I shall ask exactly what and why. I shall then report back here.

 

I would actually enjoy repairing/refurbishing a turbo (I'm an electrical/electronic engineer who slipped into programming, but consider myself a bit of an all rounder, i.e. not afraid to break things!)

 

So if it is turbo releated you are obviously the person to talk to, hope that's OK.

FOCA

No worries, yes, your electronics skills/ knowlege could be handy regarding your car, its amazing how specialized people have become -  i will try my best but i don't consider myself an expert in turbos - there was a chap on here that has specialist knowlege - i asked him about a potential turbo upgrade for myself but he has not got back to me yet      

ajt

I managed to work out how to log data from my ELM327 OBDII reader and have attached a small log. It looks like the Intake Manifold Absolute pressure is hovering around 14psi, I did take the car to the 3200rpm cut off, although for less than a second (so probably not logged as the resolution of the charting isn't brilliant.

 

I would have thought the boost should have cut in before this point though?

 

Won't let me attach .csv file so renamed extension to .txt, you may want to change it back to get it to auto open in excel or something else.

FOCA

Is the 14psi just atmospheric pressure (the turbo not producing any boost at all/ no boost measured at the MAP sensor) or is it 14psi >above< atmospheric?

 

When the boost comes in is revs >and< time related - but it should be producing a reasonable (measurable) anount of boost before 2k/ 2.5k and a couple of seconds after pressing the throttle - is the car >really< slow  (no boost/ turbo siezed/ not connected to inlet/  engine not running of the turbo like an NA)

 

I could not decipher the data - just looked like a load of numbers on whatever i opened it with

ajt

Its the turbo. I drove it gingerly today, to try and get some more data, I had drawn the same conclusions as you about no boost what so ever. As soon as I pulled up on the drive I disconnected intake pipe to turbo and tried to spin it. It turned but didn't spin, and there was an noticable amount of oil, maybe just under a teaspoon, nicely coating the intake. I guess oil seal has gone. So I phoned ford and cancelled tomorrows appointment.

 

I almost have the turbo off, but there is one bolt I just can't get at, its the lower one need the oil return. Just can't get a socket or spanner on it, the oil return connector is in the way. Then the light went so now indoors.

 

I have already ordered a repair kit of ebay, £30 quid. I had read that all the kits are identical, and no point in paying closer to £50, for some.

 

Whilst attempting to take the turbo off I did note one of the heat shield bolts was missing, and the oil feed banjo only had one copper washer and no filter!

 

Me thinks I was sold a pup 18 months ago and have been lucky it didn't fail sooner.

 

I have already dropped the oil (plan on doing this twice), and it looks clean, no swarf that I can see. I will take oil filter out tomorrow, and check it for swarf.

 

A couple of questions,

1. The oil feed pipe is now disconnected from the turbo, and appears to "swing" around where ever it is fixed to at the other end. Is this OK, and where is the other end (I guess behind the DPF)!

 

2.I'm going to see what damage has been done to the compressor and turbine, if any (wishful thinking), and then decide wether or not to use repair kit. A new cartridge is £150 on ebay, anybody any experiences with these. I guess they are balanced.

 

3. Any advice on how to do the job, tips and tricks? i.e how to access the bolts that hold the turbo to the block.

 

4. How do you seperate the DPF and turbo? There is a clamp that I have undone, but the actual metal c-cup (cross section) clamp does not seem to want to slip one way or the other. Don't want to force it.

STEADS

If the clamp is the same as on the 2.0 i took the bolt out got a long flat bladed screw driver and just worked it round thats the easy part you want to try getting it back on lol as for the bolt you cant get again if its like the 2.0 i had to take the manifold off and drop the whole lot out again not that easy but with a wiggle and jiggle it should come again getting it back in was a pain still got work to do on my 2.0 i,e connect all the plumbing back up and cat/dpf and clean sump out been sat for a while now as winter set in so left it bought the 1.8 in the mean time .

ajt

Had to give it one more go before giving up for night (girlfriend just went to work), and it's off. Woohoo

 

...and if there could be good news, it is that the shaft has snapped and the exhaust side has jammed. Haven';t taken it apart yet, but I guess I could just get shaft and ends, to go with rebuild kit, or would it be a better option just to get center cartridge, either way I'm placing order on ebay tonight, unless any one wants to recommend somewhere else.

 

I eventualy got to last nut using 11mm deep socket on to a ratchet uninon coupling.

FOCA

I would just get the cartridge,  it should be refurbished with rew seals etc - it should come with some sort of a guarantee, you have 60 days to leave FB etc, if you pay by credit card you could get a refund through that etc

 

Youre old turbo is "totalled" with the shaft sheared/ siezed, its a specialist job to rebuild it, if your new cartrige is a "refurb" they may want and old one for exchange, watch out as they may reject your old one in that condition and you may have to pay full price (no "exchange subsidy")  depending on seller

 

thea turbo would not have been making any boost whatsoever and it would have been like a (low powerd) NA car - i would be surprized if it pulled over 40mph!

 

Glad you "took the plunge" and much respect!

 

The oil feed pipe comes from the pump and the return goes back to the sump, obviously you dont start the engine with these disconnected and the pipes cannot be reversed, you can drip some fresh/ clean oil into the bearing on rebild so it does not spin up dry when you 1st start it

 

the turbo blades are delicate, dirt can get into the unions/ bearing - careful how you handle it    

 

You may not actually have to seperate the DPF from the turbo/ exhaust manifold

 

Old bolts can (especially on exhausts etc) be rusty spraying them with wd-40 / oil and letting it soak in can help, a bit of heat (a quick once over with a blowtorch) can work wonders

 

If you het "stuck" on something, leave it for 10, mins have a cup of tea, try again (seems like you know this one already!)

 

A Haynes manual can be very useful

 

When you are under the car, thilthy and covered on oil, sweat and you have skinned your knuckles and you are freezing cold, remember you have saved £45 on the checkup, an estimated £1000 for a new turbo fitted , so by douing it yorself you should be £800+ up - plus the respect of the chaps on the forum = priceless !  

 

Much of it is common sense - not that that is common, in reality :)          

ajt

@FOCA

Encouraging words are always welcome

 

I'm about to buy this one

 

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Turbocharger-Turbo-CHRA-Cartridge-GT1544V-753420-for-Ford-Focus-Peugeot-Volvo-/281072685714?pt=UK_CarsParts_Vehicles_CarParts_SM&hash=item41713cd292

 

Should get it by Friday.

 

Now the bad news. It is avariable vane turbo and whilst trying to clean it up there are three hex machine screws holding the mechanism together. Evenn before I started I thought this could end up nasty, but had to strip it as part of exhaust turbine blade had sheared off and I wanted to make sure it was not wedged in the works waiting to come back and bite me.

Any way scre No.1 I thought was about to shear, but then it moved afew turns seized again then came out. Screw No.2 came out abit then sheared, buggerit. Screw No.3 came out, but looks lioke it may have shered the very last thread, as it looks square on the end, whereas screw No.1 has slight unthreade taper on the end. Oh well. Take it to engineer shop tomorrow, see if they can tap it out.

FOCA

PS - the shaft may have failed because it was an old turbo someone had stuck on (as you suspected due to the missing bolts etc) - or it could have been due to poor lubrication/ shutting the ignition off when the turbo was still spinning OR -

 

There is another fault - the boost sontrol system/s are not operatingb and the shaft sheared due too the turbo over- revving / exessive boost "wastegate" not operating

 

So the original fault had a knock-on effect to break the shaft

 

this may not be the case but worth checking

 

I feel reasured by my boost gauge

 

I would treat it to fresh oil/ filter on rebuild, then regular changes

ajt

Order placed...

 

Again back to the oil feed pipe, the end that attaches to top of turbo is loose, it spins on the pipe and moves up and slides up and down the pipe about 10mm. Is this normal?

ajt

I have done two oil changes since I've had it and the next one was due last week, just before MOT, but due to weather and having no cover to work under it went on the back burner! Don't think it would have stopped the failure though, and if anybody else does, keep it to yourself! (Just joking). I am changing oil, but am now a bit worried about oil feed pipe as I mentioned in earlier post. I've taken a couple of photos of turbo and shall try to post.



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