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Neilc
Hi I have a problem with my 1999 (T) 1.6cc Focus which is really puzzling me and my mechanic.

The car starts and drives lovely and during the day ticks over normally at lights and junctions etc, maybe taking a bit longer than usual to come down to idle but not excessive.

The problem is as soon as I turn on an electrical item (Fan blower, Heated screen, Head lights etc)the idle speed dips dramatically if I turn on all at once it has even been known to stall, but most times it just about saves itself and then returns to just below normal idle speed.

Obviously during the recent cold spell I am using all the electrical items mentioned above.

The local auto ecectrician has checked the alternator output and it is fine.

This is getting on my nerves, So any advice appreciated.

Neil C
stef123
im having similar issues and im very puzzled by it. when i let the revs return to normal idle it drops slightly then picks itself back up to 750rpm or there abouts. but if im using lights, heater etc it drops dramatically and the car shakes very slightly then returns to 750rpm.

my car is now on its 4th coil pack this year, when the last one was changed the battery was changed also as this is known to cause electrical gremlins. it lasted for 8 weeks but im back to square one again. ive tested the alternator output and its fine.

i can only think its an electrical issue that playing havoc with my coil pack but im f*cked if i know what it is. in the past ive changed the ICV(which did help) also checked thoroughly for vacuum leaks.
artscot79
[quote name='stef123' post='55747' date='Dec 21 2009, 03:03 PM']im having similar issues and im very puzzled by it. when i let the revs return to normal idle it drops slightly then picks itself back up to 750rpm or there abouts. but if im using lights, heater etc it drops dramatically and the car shakes very slightly then returns to 750rpm.

my car is now on its 4th coil pack this year, when the last one was changed the battery was changed also as this is known to cause electrical gremlins. it lasted for 8 weeks but im back to square one again. ive tested the alternator output and its fine.

i can only think its an electrical issue that playing havoc with my coil pack but im f*cked if i know what it is. in the past ive changed the ICV(which did help) also checked thoroughly for vacuum leaks.[/quote]
have you had the voltage regulator checked the focus is known to have weak earth points and doesnt like excessigve loads focus hacks has info on it it requires using heavy duty earth cable and upgrading them all the car shouldnt stall though the revs should drop but the violtage regulator will make it pick back up to anywhere between 680-750rpm use the dash diagnostics and go to the battery readout it will read 14.7 or so idling with no electrics then turn the electrics on 1 by 1 and watch it the voltage with everything on shouldnt drop below 12 if it does then voltage regulator or the alternator is a t fault if it stays at 12 or more they are fine also whatever the readout is when you use the gas the reading should increse
stef123
[quote name='artscot79' post='55752' date='Dec 21 2009, 03:26 PM']have you had the voltage regulator checked the focus is known to have weak earth points and doesnt like excessigve loads focus hacks has info on it it requires using heavy duty earth cable and upgrading them all the car shouldnt stall though the revs should drop but the violtage regulator will make it pick back up to anywhere between 680-750rpm use the dash diagnostics and go to the battery readout it will read 14.7 or so idling with no electrics then turn the electrics on 1 by 1 and watch it the voltage with everything on shouldnt drop below 12 if it does then voltage regulator or the alternator is a t fault if it stays at 12 or more they are fine also whatever the readout is when you use the gas the reading should increse[/quote]

even under load the alternator voltage still remained quite high so i can only presume its ok.

i did consider making up some earth cables. from the battery to body and the battery to engine. atleast that way if any of my earths are weak i should have eliminated them.

engine running im seeing 14.4 volts, under loads im about 14v IIRC.

cheers for the suggestions so far.
artscot79
[quote name='stef123' post='55757' date='Dec 21 2009, 03:33 PM']even under load the alternator voltage still remained quite high so i can only presume its ok.

i did consider making up some earth cables. from the battery to body and the battery to engine. atleast that way if any of my earths are weak i should have eliminated them.

engine running im seeing 14.4 volts, under loads im about 14v IIRC.

cheers for the suggestions so far.[/quote]
try this site they explain the earth issue better than i its a well known problem especially if you have a big install etc it cant cope try the link [url="http://www.focushacks.com/index.php?q=type&v=ice&ht=Audio"]http://www.focushacks.com/index.php?q=type...ce&ht=Audio[/url] / Video / In-Car-Entertainment
mintalkin
also check the battery terminals and get the battery drop tested.
stef123
i think to be fair the battery on my car should be fine, it is only 8 weeks old but...

i have just been out with the old multimeter and made an interesting discovery. i scratched a few bits of metal on the egine and took a reading between them and the battery. the lowest reading i got was nearly 40 ohms.

at the moment ive not got any crimps for 4awg cable although i do have the cable but ive got 2.5mm cable and crimps so i will use them for now and see if i can get this high resistance down.
InstructorPiggy
yeah, get some earth cable, do a good daisy chain around the bay, bodywork to engine and back again and then to battery!!

I did it with me colt once...cured a lot of ICE problems....and I had two batterys running and a capacitor!!

Check the loom by the aux belt too...the wiring sometimes rubbs through creating a bad earth.

:)
stef123
[quote name='InstructorPiggy' post='55788' date='Dec 21 2009, 05:19 PM']yeah, get some earth cable, do a good daisy chain around the bay, bodywork to engine and back again and then to battery!!

I did it with me colt once...cured a lot of ICE problems....and I had two batterys running and a capacitor!!

Check the loom by the aux belt too...the wiring sometimes rubbs through creating a bad earth.

:)[/quote]


sounds like a plan, i will try that tomorow and check the wiring. atleast i will get rid of the high resistance lol.

do you think the high resistance/poor earth could be the killer of coil packs and also causing me to have an erratic idle for a second?

cheers
stef
InstructorPiggy
maybe...easy way to find out...and it aint that expensive!!

Gota get it sorted really, if you getting that high resistance and it finds its way to the ECU...ooooouch
stef123
[quote name='InstructorPiggy' post='55801' date='Dec 21 2009, 05:29 PM']maybe...easy way to find out...and it aint that expensive!!

Gota get it sorted really, if you getting that high resistance and it finds its way to the ECU...ooooouch[/quote]

very true, the only problem is trying to find a good point to fit an earth to.
Neilc
[quote name='stef123' post='55747' date='Dec 21 2009, 03:03 PM']im having similar issues and im very puzzled by it. when i let the revs return to normal idle it drops slightly then picks itself back up to 750rpm or there abouts. but if im using lights, heater etc it drops dramatically and the car shakes very slightly then returns to 750rpm.

my car is now on its 4th coil pack this year, when the last one was changed the battery was changed also as this is known to cause electrical gremlins. it lasted for 8 weeks but im back to square one again. ive tested the alternator output and its fine.

i can only think its an electrical issue that playing havoc with my coil pack but im f*cked if i know what it is. in the past ive changed the ICV(which did help) also checked thoroughly for vacuum leaks.[/quote]



Hi Thanks for all the advice so far, i have been reading it all through, When you changed the coil pack did it cure the problem even if only temporarily?

Also what is the ICV which you say actually helped by being changed?

My voltage at the battery stays at about 14.7 even when everything is turned on so i dont think its the alternator.

Maybe we will get some more help from users later on

Regards
Neil
InstructorPiggy
make one...find a bolt or two on engine, remove, clean off area with wet/dry paper...body work plenty places you could rub away at, put bolt/nut/self tapper in...just ensure you seal it after to avoid rust :)
stef123
[quote name='Neilc' post='55817' date='Dec 21 2009, 05:54 PM']Hi Thanks for all the advice so far, i have been reading it all through, When you changed the coil pack did it cure the problem even if only temporarily?

Also what is the ICV which you say actually helped by being changed?

My voltage at the battery stays at about 14.7 even when everything is turned on so i dont think its the alternator.

Maybe we will get some more help from users later on

Regards
Neil[/quote]

yes the coil pack did certainly help to begin with but it was either masking the original problem for a while or the original problem takes a bit of time to affect the coil pack.
the ICV controls the flow of air when the throttle is shut basically. Idle control valve.
my alternator is doing exactly the same as yours then really, load doesnt affect its output too much. so it looks like the alternators are ok then.
im going round to my garage tonight to knock up some earths and fit them on and see if i can stop this erratic idle and flickering headlights. earth faults can throw up the weirdest of symptoms at times so lets keep our fingers crossed.

[quote name='InstructorPiggy' post='55818' date='Dec 21 2009, 05:54 PM']make one...find a bolt or two on engine, remove, clean off area with wet/dry paper...body work plenty places you could rub away at, put bolt/nut/self tapper in...just ensure you seal it after to avoid rust :)[/quote]

i will go hunt out my emery cloth and a file. im gonna fit an earth right on the bracket that secures the alternator and also atleast one more to the bodywork, anywhere else you recommend?

i might even use a set of jump leads first to see if it makes a difference before i go making holes or pulling bolts out.

cheers
stef
stef123
ok well a bit of an update.
ive been round at the garage most of the night doing some experimenting and testing.
it appeared that all my resistance readings from the battery to each earth point were about 40ohms, ive now fitted a new earth 'loop' and removed and cleaned up all the existing earths and managed to get the earth resistance down to 3ohms. i would have taken the car out for a little drive but the battery is flat.

now the major earth problem is the 2 earths situated at the side of the screenwash filler. now i dont know about anyone else but i usually soak these when filling up the screenwash.

hopefully this will help you aswell neil but i will be back on here tomorow morning after ive got the car started.
InstructorPiggy
remove those earths, emery cloth, then refit and spray (if you got some) with battery terminal spray, helps keep moisture out :)

great to hear ohms is down!!

did you pop extra earth to engine casing at all??

get some piccys :) and a test drive and report!!
stef123
[quote name='InstructorPiggy' post='55980' date='Dec 21 2009, 10:52 PM']remove those earths, emery cloth, then refit and spray (if you got some) with battery terminal spray, helps keep moisture out :)

great to hear ohms is down!!

did you pop extra earth to engine casing at all??

get some piccys :) and a test drive and report!![/quote]

i have cleaned up all the existing earths and refitted them.

ive got an extra earth from the battery to the alternator bracket, from there it goes to the bodywork and then to the cylinder head (rear)
also got one from the battery going to the main body earth point and then to another point on the body.
its all done with thin cable at the moment but as i know it works i will make up some new earth cables when im next at work. will use 6mm square rubber insulated cable.
will get some pics tomorow after i get it started up, hopefully all is well.

from 40ohms to 3ohms...thats just ridiculous? that extra 37 ohms must have been playing a vital part in my problems...surely that cant go unnoticed.

oh and i did hunt the battery terminal spray out earlier...the good old green gunge
InstructorPiggy
good man, seems like you got it under control...may reduce that ohms little more with better earth cable :)
well done...should make a difference :)
stef123
[quote name='InstructorPiggy' post='56009' date='Dec 21 2009, 11:19 PM']good man, seems like you got it under control...may reduce that ohms little more with better earth cable :)
well done...should make a difference :)[/quote]

i sure hope so. the closer i can get it to 0 the better lol. thanks for your help so far mate :)
stef123
will it do any harm to remove the battery overnight so i can charge it? also will it do any damage to the battery charging it with a lead acid charger? its a lead calcium battery.
InstructorPiggy
[quote name='stef123' post='56026' date='Dec 21 2009, 11:40 PM']will it do any harm to remove the battery overnight so i can charge it? also will it do any damage to the battery charging it with a lead acid charger? its a lead calcium battery.[/quote]

don't think so, ensure you got ya radio code thingy...thats just a headache otherwise.

and always remove earth first, connect last.

Duno bout the charger....is it truly a specific charger for lead acid??
stef123
[quote name='InstructorPiggy' post='56028' date='Dec 21 2009, 11:43 PM']don't think so, ensure you got ya radio code thingy...thats just a headache otherwise.

and always remove earth first, connect last.

Duno bout the charger....is it truly a specific charger for lead acid??[/quote]

no radio code to worry about, its an after market jobby.

ermm it was bought a few years ago for my lead acid batteries but i presume it only puts out about 13.5v or there about? just means it wont fully charge?
InstructorPiggy
[quote name='stef123' post='56032' date='Dec 21 2009, 11:45 PM']no radio code to worry about, its an after market jobby.

ermm it was bought a few years ago for my lead acid batteries but i presume it only puts out about 13.5v or there about? just means it wont fully charge?[/quote]


duno, I remember when just leaving the trade the garage spending a collasal amount on a special charge for the gel batteries!!....on ya own there! :lol:
Neilc
[quote name='stef123' post='55766' date='Dec 21 2009, 04:12 PM']i think to be fair the battery on my car should be fine, it is only 8 weeks old but...

i have just been out with the old multimeter and made an interesting discovery. i scratched a few bits of metal on the egine and took a reading between them and the battery. the lowest reading i got was nearly 40 ohms.

at the moment ive not got any crimps for 4awg cable although i do have the cable but ive got 2.5mm cable and crimps so i will use them for now and see if i can get this high resistance down.[/quote]


Stef When you did the earth readings and got the high ohms readings was that with the engine running?

ps all this help and advice is great lets hope we can find a cure for all of us and others as well

Neil
stef123
[quote name='Neilc' post='56062' date='Dec 22 2009, 09:24 AM']Stef When you did the earth readings and got the high ohms readings was that with the engine running?

ps all this help and advice is great lets hope we can find a cure for all of us and others as well

Neil[/quote]

no with the engine turned off, with it running it just makes my meter give silly readings.

ok so from the battery to any point on the engine i now have 3 ohms which im very happy with.
but from the battery to points on the body under the bonnet im getting anything between 10 and 13 ohms. not sure if thats 'acceptable' or not but i cant seem to get it any lower.

also, when i have no load on the engine and i rev it and let it fall back to idle it does it without dropping and when i do it under load it still drops ever so slightly but its much better than it was.

getting there slowly.
Neilc
[quote name='stef123' post='56072' date='Dec 22 2009, 10:40 AM']no with the engine turned off, with it running it just makes my meter give silly readings.

ok so from the battery to any point on the engine i now have 3 ohms which im very happy with.
but from the battery to points on the body under the bonnet im getting anything between 10 and 13 ohms. not sure if thats 'acceptable' or not but i cant seem to get it any lower.

also, when i have no load on the engine and i rev it and let it fall back to idle it does it without dropping and when i do it under load it still drops ever so slightly but its much better than it was.

getting there slowly.[/quote]

Hi Just all morning cleaning all the existing earthing points as mentioned, also added a thick cable from the alternatot to the top suspension mount hopefully a good earthing point!! Also added a new earth cable from the battery to the other suspension point obviously if these are rubber mounted underneath then it will do nothing!!

Going out for a spin (Literally) later will report back this evening.

One thing I have noticed with mine is that no matter how long I let it tick over the rad cooling fan does not seem to kick in, maybe due the cold weather not sure really.

Keep up the good work
stef123
[quote name='Neilc' post='56127' date='Dec 22 2009, 12:39 PM']Hi Just all morning cleaning all the existing earthing points as mentioned, also added a thick cable from the alternatot to the top suspension mount hopefully a good earthing point!! Also added a new earth cable from the battery to the other suspension point obviously if these are rubber mounted underneath then it will do nothing!!

Going out for a spin (Literally) later will report back this evening.

One thing I have noticed with mine is that no matter how long I let it tick over the rad cooling fan does not seem to kick in, maybe due the cold weather not sure really.

Keep up the good work[/quote]

if you have done the suspension mount then that should be a good earth point, the nut will hold your earth tight against the body so it doesnt matter if the strut is rubber mounted if you see what i mean. i have also done this on mine. presumably you did remove a bit of paint first? mine was painted under the nuts so i just scratched some of it away.

had a thought earlier though, i was checking the resistance with the battery still connected...oops. ive check all my earth point now with the battery disconnected and im getting between 0.1 and 0.4ohms so im good with that.

my radiator fan hasnt been on either and ive had the car idling for ages, i wouldnt worry about it. if the temp gauge starts going up and the fan doesnt cut in then i would worry.

i cant really road test at the moment as my coil pack is nackered and it plays up when the engine is under load so until i have that i cant drive the car.

cheers
stef
InstructorPiggy
don't wuz about fan...gets to 90degrees for the stat just to open....bet it won't get to that just idling in this weather!!! :lol:

well done with things...getting there...you may get worse resistance with bodywork...think of all the other things connected to bodywork!! Bodywork cold pick up resistance of things around too!!

Ensure you got doors/boot shut...as the earth on the doors for the interior lights will affect your reading :)
Neilc
[quote name='InstructorPiggy' post='56240' date='Dec 22 2009, 07:35 PM']don't wuz about fan...gets to 90degrees for the stat just to open....bet it won't get to that just idling in this weather!!! :lol:

well done with things...getting there...you may get worse resistance with bodywork...think of all the other things connected to bodywork!! Bodywork cold pick up resistance of things around too!!

Ensure you got doors/boot shut...as the earth on the doors for the interior lights will affect your reading :)[/quote]


Went out for a drive yesterday afternoon and the news is not good if anything its worse, now it just cuts out when I let the revs die at junctions or in a queue.

Another mechanic has suggested the small sensor on the very front of the throttle body housing which he thinks is there to open the throttle butterfly valve very slightly and increase the revs when load is applied to the alternator and is controlled probably by the main ECU ( Gulp)

Going to look for one at the breakers and change it just to see!!!!

Lets keep trying

Neil
stef123
[quote name='Neilc' post='56393' date='Dec 23 2009, 09:25 AM']Went out for a drive yesterday afternoon and the news is not good if anything its worse, now it just cuts out when I let the revs die at junctions or in a queue.

Another mechanic has suggested the small sensor on the very front of the throttle body housing which he thinks is there to open the throttle butterfly valve very slightly and increase the revs when load is applied to the alternator and is controlled probably by the main ECU ( Gulp)

Going to look for one at the breakers and change it just to see!!!!

Lets keep trying

Neil[/quote]

that part you are reffering to is the ICV - idle control valve

cheers
stef
Neilc
[quote name='stef123' post='56414' date='Dec 23 2009, 01:52 PM']that part you are reffering to is the ICV - idle control valve

cheers
stef[/quote]

Stef Surely the idle control valve is the silver cylinder thingy right next to the inlet manifold.with the wiring connector actually behind the inlet manifold
The piece I am on about is screwed directly on to the throttle body housing and held in by two srews with those funny heads!! or am I really confused

I have tried to add two photos No 1 is what I am trying to describe. No 2 is the ICV surely??
stef123
[quote name='Neilc' post='56424' date='Dec 23 2009, 03:57 PM']Stef Surely the idle control valve is the silver cylinder thingy right next to the inlet manifold.with the wiring connector actually behind the inlet manifold
The piece I am on about is screwed directly on to the throttle body housing and held in by two srews with those funny heads!! or am I really confused

I have tried to add two photos No 1 is what I am trying to describe. No 2 is the ICV surely??[/quote]

first pic is TPS - throttle position sensor and second pic is indeed the ICV. The problem is more likely to be the ICV as when the butterfly is fully closed it regulates the amount of air that is allowed to bypass the butterfly and enter the inlet manifold. the TPS is kinda self explanatory.

also the 'funny' headed screws you reffer to are torx but i can remember what size im afraid.
InstructorPiggy
[quote name='stef123' post='56414' date='Dec 23 2009, 01:52 PM']that part you are reffering to is the ICV - idle control valve

cheers
stef[/quote]

but that doesnt control the butterfly...just opens a hole basically to adjust air flow...
stef123
[quote name='InstructorPiggy' post='56598' date='Dec 24 2009, 05:48 PM']but that doesnt control the butterfly...just opens a hole basically to adjust air flow...[/quote]

i didnt really mean that it controls the butterfly, what i really meant was that instead of the butterfly opening, the icv allows air to bypass it... apart from the part of the description that said it opens the butteryfly, ICV fitted the bill for what he meant.

other than your throttle cable there is nothing that controls the butterfly.

sorry for the confusion ;)
artscot79
[url="http://www.autoequipment.com.au/PicoScope/PicoScopeHTM_data/044/alternator.htm"]http://www.autoequipment.com.au/PicoScope/.../alternator.htm[/url]

have a look here the faults somewhere in the smart charge system remember the voltage from the alternator to the battery should drop after the cars had a run it shouldnt read 15v or 14.7 all the time so im thinking that if it is then this effects the way the ecm regulates the idle control dependant on the load on the system it sounds like the ecm for whatever reason isnt telling the icv what to do hence the car stalls.

Smart charging enables the voltage supply from the alternator to vary depending on the temperature of the battery's electrolyte. It has been proven that a cold battery will respond better to a higher voltage than a hot battery, which responds better to a slightly lower voltage. The temperature of the electrolyte is calculated by monitoring the air intake temperature when the engine was last stopped and the current intake air temperature. From these two datum points, the battery's temperature can now be calculated and the appropriate charge sent to the battery.

The charging system employed on the Ford Focus is unlike any other charging system that is currently in production.
Ford utilise what is termed a 'smart charge' system. With a conventional charging system the battery is charged at a voltage that is determined by the voltage regulator, with all the electrical load being drawn from the alternator fed battery.
Smart charging enables the voltage supply from the alternator to vary depending on the temperature of the battery's electrolyte. It has been proven that a cold battery will respond better to a higher voltage than a hot battery, which responds better to a slightly lower voltage. The temperature of the electrolyte is calculated by monitoring the air intake temperature when the engine was last stopped and the current intake air temperature. From these two datum points, the battery's temperature can now be calculated and the appropriate charge sent to the battery.

The alternator will have two connections to the Engine Management Module (ECM), these are to monitor and control the output. This monitoring also allows the Idle Speed Control Valve (ISCV) to be operated when high electrical demands are seen when the engine is at idle. The ECM will also controls the engine run relay, which only allow circuits with a high current demand to be activated when the alternator is charging, until which point the components remain inactive.
The ECM is now responsible for switching off the dashboard mounted 'charging light'. When starting the engine with a conventional alternator, the unit is activated as soon as the ignition is switched on, a 'smart charging' system will only initiate the alternator once the engine has started. This action avoids an unnecessary waste of voltage on a vehicle with a discharged battery and also avoids the extra effort involved in cranking an engine with an operational alternator.
stef123
to be honest, i know how the smart charge system works and i doubt if this is my problem. the link you put up says the alternator maintains a voltage of 13.5-15v which with the readings im getting is perfectly normal. i will admit ive never checked the voltage after a good run though

also my ECU is obviously responding to load put on the engine as when i put any load on it at idle it picks back up to normal revs after half a second.

im still getting a bit of the old famous zetec 'lift off misfire' though, when i lift my foot off the gas it appears to misfire and be slightly jerky so ive yet to work out why this is happening.

cheers
stef

EDIT: when i think about it, its not all the time that my engine revs drop dramatically when returning to idle, i wonder if i have a temp sensor or something on the way out?
i believe the IAT sensor is part of the MAP sensor?
Neilc
[quote name='artscot79' post='56780' date='Dec 27 2009, 08:41 PM'][url="http://www.autoequipment.com.au/PicoScope/PicoScopeHTM_data/044/alternator.htm"]http://www.autoequipment.com.au/PicoScope/.../alternator.htm[/url]

have a look here the faults somewhere in the smart charge system remember the voltage from the alternator to the battery should drop after the cars had a run it shouldnt read 15v or 14.7 all the time so im thinking that if it is then this effects the way the ecm regulates the idle control dependant on the load on the system it sounds like the ecm for whatever reason isnt telling the icv what to do hence the car stalls.

Smart charging enables the voltage supply from the alternator to vary depending on the temperature of the battery's electrolyte. It has been proven that a cold battery will respond better to a higher voltage than a hot battery, which responds better to a slightly lower voltage. The temperature of the electrolyte is calculated by monitoring the air intake temperature when the engine was last stopped and the current intake air temperature. From these two datum points, the battery's temperature can now be calculated and the appropriate charge sent to the battery.

The charging system employed on the Ford Focus is unlike any other charging system that is currently in production.
Ford utilise what is termed a 'smart charge' system. With a conventional charging system the battery is charged at a voltage that is determined by the voltage regulator, with all the electrical load being drawn from the alternator fed battery.
Smart charging enables the voltage supply from the alternator to vary depending on the temperature of the battery's electrolyte. It has been proven that a cold battery will respond better to a higher voltage than a hot battery, which responds better to a slightly lower voltage. The temperature of the electrolyte is calculated by monitoring the air intake temperature when the engine was last stopped and the current intake air temperature. From these two datum points, the battery's temperature can now be calculated and the appropriate charge sent to the battery.

The alternator will have two connections to the Engine Management Module (ECM), these are to monitor and control the output. This monitoring also allows the Idle Speed Control Valve (ISCV) to be operated when high electrical demands are seen when the engine is at idle. The ECM will also controls the engine run relay, which only allow circuits with a high current demand to be activated when the alternator is charging, until which point the components remain inactive.
The ECM is now responsible for switching off the dashboard mounted 'charging light'. When starting the engine with a conventional alternator, the unit is activated as soon as the ignition is switched on, a 'smart charging' system will only initiate the alternator once the engine has started. This action avoids an unnecessary waste of voltage on a vehicle with a discharged battery and also avoids the extra effort involved in cranking an engine with an operational alternator.[/quote]


Ok I sort of understand the principles behind what you are saying, but could the fault be within the alternator (is a swop worth trying) or is the fault somewhere else (Possibly battery) I am booked in a Ford Diagnostic on Wed and would like to get it sorted before if it's possible
Neil 07790697078
artscot79
[quote name='Neilc' post='56865' date='Dec 28 2009, 03:43 PM']Ok I sort of understand the principles behind what you are saying, but could the fault be within the alternator (is a swop worth trying) or is the fault somewhere else (Possibly battery) I am booked in a Ford Diagnostic on Wed and would like to get it sorted before if it's possible
Neil 07790697078[/quote]

if im honest i know ford isnt cheap but the diagnostics is the best way there are so many things that are linked sensor wise and a diagnostics would be cheaper than replacing part after part i think the diagnostics is the best bet mate that way you will know if its summat stupid or even just a copuple of sensors let us know how you get on
Neilc
[quote name='artscot79' post='56867' date='Dec 28 2009, 04:35 PM']if im honest i know ford isnt cheap but the diagnostics is the best way there are so many things that are linked sensor wise and a diagnostics would be cheaper than replacing part after part i think the diagnostics is the best bet mate that way you will know if its summat stupid or even just a copuple of sensors let us know how you get on[/quote]


Ok I only asked because my mechanic has a alternator from a previous focus engine and has offered to fit it tomorrow morn and I just wondered if it was worth a shot and I have a spare battery in the garage and was just wondering.........
stef123
[quote name='Neilc' post='56878' date='Dec 28 2009, 06:19 PM']Ok I only asked because my mechanic has a alternator from a previous focus engine and has offered to fit it tomorrow morn and I just wondered if it was worth a shot and I have a spare battery in the garage and was just wondering.........[/quote]

originally i thought the cause of my problems was becuase of a duff battery but obviously not. the result of your diagnostic test will be very interesting.
how much is the diagnostics going to set you back? if it does throw up some reasons then i will definetly pay to have it done on mine!

if your going to change the battery for another one make sure its a lead calcium one otherwise you will do damage.
Neilc
[quote name='stef123' post='56896' date='Dec 28 2009, 08:43 PM']originally i thought the cause of my problems was becuase of a duff battery but obviously not. the result of your diagnostic test will be very interesting.
how much is the diagnostics going to set you back? if it does throw up some reasons then i will definetly pay to have it done on mine!

if your going to change the battery for another one make sure its a lead calcium one otherwise you will do damage.[/quote]




Hi diagnostics is 70 something plus the dreaded. surely any car battery is lead acid!!
stef123
[quote name='Neilc' post='56902' date='Dec 28 2009, 09:18 PM']Hi diagnostics is 70 something plus the dreaded. surely any car battery is lead acid!![/quote]

not all cars im afraid,

if you charge a lead acid as you would a lead calcium you will burst it(charging voltage is too high). but if you charge a lead calcium as you would a lead acid you will only charge it to about 50%(charging voltage too low). the very reason i would stay clear of anyone in halfords trying to sell me a battery, what do they know? buy this one its more expensive...
as far as i know any ford with the smart charge system needs a lead calcium battery.
well i might just need to get the dagnostics done, will wait and see what your result is.
Neilc
[quote name='stef123' post='56905' date='Dec 28 2009, 09:52 PM']not all cars im afraid,

if you charge a lead acid as you would a lead calcium you will burst it(charging voltage is too high). but if you charge a lead calcium as you would a lead acid you will only charge it to about 50%(charging voltage too low). the very reason i would stay clear of anyone in halfords trying to sell me a battery, what do they know? buy this one its more expensive...
as far as i know any ford with the smart charge system needs a lead calcium battery.
well i might just need to get the dagnostics done, will wait and see what your result is.[/quote]



Oh Why are cars so complicated, I know the battery is second hand in mine, so how do i tell which type it is?

running out of time to find a cure fast!!!
stef123
[quote name='Neilc' post='56943' date='Dec 29 2009, 09:33 AM']Oh Why are cars so complicated, I know the battery is second hand in mine, so how do i tell which type it is?

running out of time to find a cure fast!!![/quote]

if its lasted a while then id say its a lead calcium? if not then the high charging voltage gasses the electrolyte and the battery lasts a very short time if it doesnt burst.


it will have PbCA on it possibly? where as a lead acid will just have Pb? not entirely sure as i cant remember what my old and new battery had on them.
Matt_focus_zetec
Brillant thread so far whats the out comes i have a similar problem check this out as this si what i have tried so far but am definatly going up to maplins tmra to buy some earth cable

[url="http://www.fordownersclub.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=8058&st=0&gopid=57184&#entry57184"]http://www.fordownersclub.com/forums/index...amp;#entry57184[/url]

my previous thread

Cheers

Matt
stef123
[quote name='Matt_focus_zetec' post='57186' date='Dec 30 2009, 08:46 PM']Brillant thread so far whats the out comes i have a similar problem check this out as this si what i have tried so far but am definatly going up to maplins tmra to buy some earth cable

[url="http://www.fordownersclub.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=8058&st=0&gopid=57184&#entry57184"]http://www.fordownersclub.com/forums/index...amp;#entry57184[/url]

my previous thread

Cheers

Matt[/quote]


hey matt,

i just posted a reply to your thread a few minutes ago. so far my car isnt much better than it was but im now suspecting the map/iat sensor.

now that my engine and chassis are well earthed i can begin poking about so as i said in your thread, my new code reader should be here tomorow and it will allow me to view and record live data so i will be checking out the map and iat sensor and seeing whats what if anything. will be interesting though.

cheers
stef
stef123
well my new code reader/scanner came today so ive been out trying it on the car and have found some interesting stuff.

now when returning to idle my car always dips then the revs pick up again. while it does this the TP sensor is at 19.2% but if i bring it back down to idle at 20% it idles perfectly! if that makes sense? so looks like i need a new TP.

MAP and IAT sensor reading appear to be normal. unplugging the sensor makes the car rev higher and also run like sh1te.
normal readings (at idle) are 31C give or take for temp and 23? Kpa for pressure.
unplugged readings are -40C and 125Kpa. so all appears fine?

the lambda sensors do follow each other, most of the time. so i guess these are ok.

the TP sensor is part number 1071403 and its 59.58 inc vat from ford.

and it just so happens that i have a spare sensor here, will change it over and see what happens.
Neilc
[quote name='Neilc' post='56902' date='Dec 28 2009, 09:18 PM']Hi diagnostics is 70 something plus the dreaded. surely any car battery is lead acid!![/quote]


Hi just a quick follow up on the Ford Diagostics yesterday

Cost 75, inc vat

NO REASON FOR PROBLEM FOUND, only faults codes listed were for things I had changed whilst trying to solve the problem, so they have erased them and sent me away to drive for a few days and then bring it back and have the codes read again to see if anything has reappeared and yes they will recharge me for the second diagnostics but with some discount probably 10%.

I got to talk to the mechanic who was very helpfull and said that the battery was not actually the correct one for the car it's got an 063 type and it should have an 065 type as a min, so I have been a bought a second hand 075 from my local breakers and fitted it this morning.

Test driving this afternoon fingers crossed I will let you all know how things go!!!

ps I asked him about bad earth's and sort circuits etc and he said mine was not showing any evidence at all.


Keep up the good work and we will solve this eventually

Neil
Neilc
[quote name='Matt_focus_zetec' post='57186' date='Dec 30 2009, 08:46 PM']Brillant thread so far whats the out comes i have a similar problem check this out as this si what i have tried so far but am definatly going up to maplins tmra to buy some earth cable

[url="http://www.fordownersclub.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=8058&st=0&gopid=57184&#entry57184"]http://www.fordownersclub.com/forums/index...amp;#entry57184[/url]

my previous thread

Cheers

Matt[/quote]

Hi Matt welcome to the thread, I have just added another piece to Stef, have a read and we will see what happens later today!!

Happy new year


Neil
stef123
thats an interesting one neil. shame its costing a fortune for the diagnostics though.

i have now changed the throttle position sensor and have changed the idle reading from 19.2 to 20% so that has helped a little but still not great. it did appear to work when i first tried it but it seems more of a hit or miss.

ive been recording data and playing it back and it appears one of my lambda sensors could be out? at most times they follow each other but there are times when one sensor goes to (for example) 0.651v while the other one stays very low at 0.115v. but i am seeing anything between 0.1 and 0.7v between the two. im sure a lambda sensor is meant to read between 0.2 and 0.8v?

hopefully we will be getting some good results soon and solve the problem!


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