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GrahamH
Changed the oil and filter yesterday and decided to clean the EGR valve at the same time. 65k on the clock and I had noticed it made smoke whenever you accelerated hard. When I got it off was ama zed at the state of it. The pipe must be at least 50mm diameter and was all but blocked, you could just get your finger in the middle - all the rest black tarry coke. :o
Cleaned it all out and reassembled; no more smoke! :D
mintalkin
an egr valve clean is a really messy job but well worth the effort did you check the manifold at the same time as its most likely in the same condition?
GrahamH
[quote name='mintalkin' post='61647' date='Jan 25 2010, 02:47 PM']an egr valve clean is a really messy job but well worth the effort did you check the manifold at the same time as its most likely in the same condition?[/quote]
Looked into the entry point and cleaned that - wasn't too bad tho.
Should I have taken the manifold off? Given the mileage (65k) I was surprised at the extent of the build up. Seem like a design flaw to me? Thought things like decokes were a thing of the past!
chris bowman
[quote name='GrahamH' post='61701' date='Jan 25 2010, 08:05 PM']Looked into the entry point and cleaned that - wasn't too bad tho.
Should I have taken the manifold off? Given the mileage (65k) I was surprised at the extent of the build up. Seem like a design flaw to me? Thought things like decokes were a thing of the past![/quote]

my mkiii 2.0 tdci really was running so rough that i thought that something serious was wrong with it and the symptom completely dissappeared when i cleaned the egr and repaired the intercooler pipe that went into the bottom of it!
Alucard
[quote name='GrahamH' post='61638' date='Jan 25 2010, 01:48 PM']Changed the oil and filter yesterday and decided to clean the EGR valve at the same time. 65k on the clock and I had noticed it made smoke whenever you accelerated hard. When I got it off was ama zed at the state of it. The pipe must be at least 50mm diameter and was all but blocked, you could just get your finger in the middle - all the rest black tarry coke. :o
Cleaned it all out and reassembled; no more smoke! :D[/quote]


Hi as you have now cleaned the EGR valve you could now blank the valve off by making up a small blanking plate from a piece of 1mm steel or alloy plate, this would then stop the future build up of the black sludge in the valve and inlet manifold and the engine would then not have to ingest its own exhaust so it will run better and you may get a few more MPGS.

I have owned 3 tdci diesels and have done this mod on all of them and i found it well worth doing just to keep the inlet manifold and EGR valve clean.

Its a easy mod to do as long as you know your way around the engine and the only cost would be a few pence for the metal for the blanking plate i made mine from the base of a old aluminium saucepan! and you should be able to complete the job in an afternoon.
mintalkin
you can blank it off as long as its not a euro 4 engine, if you do this on the later models it will put a warning light on the dash.
DONFRAMAC
For 8 years, I used "FORTE" brand diesel system cleaner fuel additive, which is available only thro' the trade, at ~8.50p + VaT, which treats 100 litres of fuel. It has a rapid effect, and has been documented as cleaning EGR valves, as well as injectors/upper cylinders/lambda probes.
I now use the petrol version, in my '58 reg Fiesta 1.25. There is another petrol version for older Zetec S type engines, which had sticky-valve troubles. (pre-Mk 6, the engines which had hydraulic tappets.)
"FORTE" additives are well-known for ensuring low emissions prior to the MoT, and were used by Mercedes workshops, until recently, when a cheaper source was adopted.
The Ford and Vauxhall dealers in my county both use this at services. It can decoke high-mileage diesels within a few miles, when used in high concentration in a low level of fuel in the tank :-- the lack of smoke left behind is astounding, and acceleration gets smooth and silky.
BLUEOVAL09
[quote name='GrahamH' date='25 January 2010 - 01:48 PM' timestamp='1264426692' post='61638']
Changed the oil and filter yesterday and decided to clean the EGR valve at the same time. 65k on the clock and I had noticed it made smoke whenever you accelerated hard. When I got it off was ama zed at the state of it. The pipe must be at least 50mm diameter and was all but blocked, you could just get your finger in the middle - all the rest black tarry coke. :o
Cleaned it all out and reassembled; no more smoke! :D
[/quote]
Had the same problem with my 05 plate 2.0 130 last year, took the egr & manifold off and cleaned them with brake cleaner and all was well for a few weeks then got the same thing happening. replaced the egr valve completely with a part i found on ebay thats completely smooth inside so the air flow is now much better, also put a K&N air filter in, that made a world of difference, a silicone intercooler hose (not cheap but well worth it as its reinforced and much stronger)and i've just had it chipped, the upshot is at the M.O.T last week the tester had to fault the smoke test machine as the engine was running too clean to give a reading, it's also now returning 46.1 mpg urban & 55.7 on a run :D
baitman

i had some issues with my mondeo 2005 tdci, and from doing some reading i reckoned it was the egr valve. i wasnt too confident about tackling it alone, and when my brother came to visit i mentioned it to him and we got stuck in...

 

 

my brother is a a keen diy mechanic so when he came to visit i mentioned this problem. he checked out a couple of pages on google to suss out the layout of the EGR valve, we bought some carb cleaning spray and had a go.

the egr was easy to find after removal of the plastic engine cover. the access id quite good, at the front top left in the engine bay. we only had to remove two nuts front, two nuts rear, and a large jubilee clip, then a vacuum hose and two electric connections

the egr came out very easily. it was seriously caked in carbon soot. we cleaned it all off dry, then used the carb cleaner to soften and remove the tougher bits. we had to make a small wire scrapper from a piece of coat hanger to get into the corners.once that was clean we checked up the plastic cover between egr and the valves [dont know the name or how better to describe] and there was some further deposits to remove. you could just about clean them out with a finger and a clean rag. a little squirt of carb cleaner and a last wipe removed the last traces.

after re-assembly i tried to start the car. there were a  couple of little coughs that had me worried, then it fired up ok. the flashing heater plug light was still on, but after running up the road i turned the ignition off and re-started and the heater light didnt re-appear. i was now able to put my foot down and the power is back. started from cold just fine this morning, zero celsius. 

very pleased. thanks for the advice chaps. this is not a major garage jobbie.i am guilty of not doing regular oil and filter changes, so this might well have been the source of the problem  i also dont drive the car long distances as i used to do and diesels prefer to be driven until fully warm to keep the soot from building up.

i will be doing an oil change including a full flush, oil, fuel and air filters, then adding some 'forte' diesel treatment [recommended by the brother] to clear out the remnants of the carbon/soot.

the forte treatment was added to less than a quarter of a tank of fuel, and the eml [engine management light] was still on. i took the car for a short 10 mile run on the mway, running at over 80. the eml was still on. stopped at the supermarket on the way home, and when i re-started the car the eml was now out, yippee!!!

 

the next day i filled up with fuel and all looks good, so far.

 

i have read with interest about blanking the egr valve. as my car is euro 4, should i use the one with the hole in it. i know some fumes will still get in bit at least the eml will not light up as it would do if i fitted a fully blanked plate. will there be some benefit in fitting the plate with the hole in it or should i just not bother? i dont like the idea of the eml being on in case there was another fault in the future, how would i know...

 

sorry about the script size. maybe the mods could re-set the bottom part of the text as it might be a little hard to read. thanks.

bladeage

Hi,

Firstly the Forte/wynns and other fuel additives that state "clean the induction system" really do, they do this by modifying the fuel flash point of the fuel i.e. making the fuel burn at a quicker and much higher temperature, this then burns carbon deposits away where they would not normally at normal diesel fuel running temperatures.

 

The instructions of use should be followed as they are devised in the laboratory on a dilution ratio e.g. 25% parts modifier to 100 parts fuel, you seem to have modified the laboratories stated dilution ratio by 75% positive etc,probably wont do your engine much good in the long run if practiced often>?

Badman

I think that I have this problem on my 2006 mondeo, but is it usual to loose all power on hard accelaration? . I get smoke when I give a bit of quick acceleration but if I floor the accelarator the engine will start to go but then loses power and the "glow plug light " comes on, if I turn engine off and restart it is back to normal.

stooge75

cleaned out my egr valve & put 1 on,that was off another mk3(euro4).

2 days later,EML came on.scanned it,& 0401 & 0405 appeared.

took egr off,replaced with other 1(thats been cleaned),cleared eml,& its still off.btw I had a tiny hole 3or 4mm(slit) on vacuum pipe.taped it up for now.

i remember putting the boot down other day,& a bit of smoke(bit more than usual) appeared.I think the egr valve mustve stuck(no wonder he sold it to me for a fiver lol)ah well,ya pay peanuts,ya get monkeys*it

baitman

Hi,

Firstly the Forte/wynns and other fuel additives that state "clean the induction system" really do, they do this by modifying the fuel flash point of the fuel i.e. making the fuel burn at a quicker and much higher temperature, this then burns carbon deposits away where they would not normally at normal diesel fuel running temperatures.

 

The instructions of use should be followed as they are devised in the laboratory on a dilution ratio e.g. 25% parts modifier to 100 parts fuel, you seem to have modified the laboratories stated dilution ratio by 75% positive etc,probably wont do your engine much good in the long run if practiced often>?

i do agree with what you have said with regard to the inclusion levels of the diesel additives. i only used a concentrated level to help clean out the fuel combustion system and egr as a short term option. the following day i topped up the fuel tank and so diluted the additive to the normal sort of inclusion levels.

 

a few days later, and after short journeys that didnt allow the car to get to full temperature i found the glow plug light/limp mode returning. i ordered a solid egr blanking plate and then took the car for a decent run. the car ran great, and the forte must have been clearing out any residue rubbish. the following day i fitted the egr blanking plate [the solid one] and it was nice and easy to just slacken off two bolts and slide it into place. the car is driving great, excellent mpg and power, and no glow plug light or EML coming on.

bladeage

Hi Baitman,

 

Yeah the egr/dpf inlet/induction cleaner stuff you add to the tank is basically airline jet engine fuel (kerosene/parafin), I am an aerospace radiologist concerned with the diagnostics on stripped down jet engines and their rotating parts and can tell you there is never any soot or deposits to be found anywhere on the combustion side of things and very little on the exhaust side either.

 

Kerosene not only burns at a much higher temperature but acts as a catalyst on carbon/soot;I am not an expert but basically kerosene is able to penetrate carbon/soot deposits via a chemical (maybe other) reaction and release it from where it is stuck /adhered to, it really is good in diesel engines as diesel engines run very cool and get sooted up quickly if not run at high temperatures often.

Good stuff! but not sure it should be run at low dilution levels in an aluminium engine,kerosene has a very high sulphur content which absolutely reacts with and destroys aluminium, jet aircraft engines and there moving parts are mostly (90%) made from Titanium which does not readily react with sulphur at high temperatures....get my drift?! The manufacturers of the said tank additive all state it should not be added more than every 3,000 miles approx.

 

Another good point to make which is off topic!

 

Red Diesel !

How many out there think red diesel is just normal diesel with red dye added to catch tax cheats out???????

 

Red diesel for the less informed has at least (approx) 125% more phosphorous/sulfur content than its more refined cousin...white diesel.

Sulfur/phosphors absolutely eat aluminium away, cylinder head,valve seats,turbo's etc etc,just ask the multitude of merc sprinter owners that continued using it in there new alloy headed vans back in the 1990's....lol...my mates head gasket went 3 times in 12 months, not due to the bad workmanship of fitting the gaskets but from the porosity it caused where the sulphur had been trapped.

cheers.

stooge75

Changed the oil and filter yesterday and decided to clean the EGR valve at the same time. 65k on the clock and I had noticed it made smoke whenever you accelerated hard. When I got it off was ama zed at the state of it. The pipe must be at least 50mm diameter and was all but blocked, you could just get your finger in the middle - all the rest black tarry coke. ohmy.gif
Cleaned it all out and reassembled; no more smoke! biggrin.gif
I'd be willing to bet you,that if you put your foot down,the exact same way as you did before you cleaned your egr,that you'll get the smoke appear,under load.(unless you've blanked it off).

baitman

 The manufacturers of the said tank additive all state it should not be added more than every 3,000 miles approx.

my brother had warned me that the forte is quite corrosive and can knacker engine parts if used continuously  but he reckoned there was nothing better if you needed a quick internal clean out. an enema for you car  :wacko:

i only used the high concentration for a 20 mile run, then after that it was back to the diluted rate as per the instructions.

i wouldnt want to be running with this sort of additive in the fuel as a normal thing, it was just to try and ensure any crap deposited from burning the recycled gases was cleaned out, and it 'd been ages since the oil and filters had been changed so things were probably as bad as could be.

 

my brother had an egr problem with his saab. he recognised the issue, and didnt even open it up to clean it. he just ran some forte through and it sorted it out  :lol:

bladeage

Hi,

The saab diesel engine is the same fitted to the vauxhall vectra etc etc (same car basically), which were developed by Fiat, so in actual fact the saab,vauxhall plant is a Fiat  :wacko: ....anyways.....I have just had my missis's Signum 150 in absolute bits due to the same poor running your brother had and I am 100% that egr cleaner as added to the fuel would absolutely not shift the amount of soot in an egr that causes problems all through the immediate induction system, the egr cleaner probably freed off the turbo and unblocked the egr pipe where it terminates at the turbo, they tend to block at the junction with the turbo in the first inch of pipe, once this is cleared the car usually runs ok again, the egr/dpf/injector/induction cleaner (basically the same stuff) is very good at shifting carbon where it burns hot,i.e.combustion chamber,turbo,catalytic convertor etc but when the gasses cool down as they reach parts such as the egr there is negligible effect and the only way of really removing soot and carbon from the egr,inlet manifold etc is to get yer fingers mucky......lol....trust me I am an expert on cdti carbon encrusted engines, I spent 3 weeks removing the said carbon/soot and after removing it all and power not being back to 100% I added a wynn's dpf treatment to over half the tank of diesel (lol I removed the DPF 15000 miles ago!!) and low and behold all was back to good in 30 miles.......I guess the kerosene additive freed the turbo and the egr pipe.

Got to remember most of all these threads are down to the EGR valves not necessarily giving up the ghost all in one go but they slowly over time block everything else up until they themselves stop working in the process, so when the egr is blocked and no longer working then simply cleaning the egr will only extinguish the dashboard light and stop the fault codes, after cleaning the egr then you need to clean the throttle body and then the inlet manifold (thats fun!), I think it is called, "cause and effect"!

When all is cleaned then put some cleaner fluid thru the tank to get where you couldnt with the varying size toothbrushes etc.

Lol...dont yer just love diesels! :lol:

Wappygixer

I'm on  my first diesel and Mondeo 130 tdci mk3.

It was running at the low 40's mpg on the trip computer. I cleaned the EGR valve which was caked as was the maqnifold which was also cleaned. I'm now getting around 48-49 mpg. This is on a 10 mile trip to work on mostly 30-40mph roads.

 

Its a very easy job to complete. The longest part was getting the manifold off and back on again due to all the wires in the way.

bladeage

Nice one!

 

It needs to be recognised more on the forums that just mending the root cause of a light on the dashboard and clearing the code does not necessarily mean that there aren't knock on problems that need sorting, that result from the root cause and this prime example of the EGR valve is one of them.

Just like the example of a Turbo with blown seals that you have put off changing for 12 months, during that time the Turbo has emptied most of the hot oil you will have lost into the intercooler,the hot oil that has not been trapped in the intercooler will then travel through the throttle body and into the cold inlet manifold which by coincidence is full of soot from your partially blocked EGR valve.....oil and soot stick together resulting in the gooey mess you have to clean out of your throttle body, you clean the throttle body but don't realise that the inlet manifold straight after the throttle body is even worse than what you have just cleaned and the gas flowed surfaces are actually now 2 mm thick in carbon because the previous 2 owners only ever cleaned the egr valve because it got rid of the light on the dashboard........do you see the vicious circle??????



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