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focus11

2011 Ford Focus Mk3 1.6 Tdci Re-Map

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I'd be very interested in what Spider have to say to you TXS. I've had both tuning box and a remap in the past and loved them both equally. I'm looking at extracting more power from my focus and am looking at either the Spider or Celtic Tuning (thru obd port module)

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Oh yes, it slipped my mind !

The two connection box ( fuel rail & air sensor ) is not suitable for ANY dpf equipped diesel as it simply overfuels the engine ( as most boxes do ) & overfuelling a dpf equipped engine is seriously a bad idea

Furthermore the calibration of the ECU is detrimentally affected which will lead to all sorts of false information being sent by the ECU to a myriad of vital sensors which control safe engine operation

I would never fit one to any diesel car of mine & that's why I have a Bluefin remap :)

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Sweeping statement, but as the Spider doesnt actually do the fuelling, it wont be overfuelling anything. It sends 2 sets of false data to the Ford ECU that then changes the fuelling and timing so ALL parameters are still within those set by Ford as the ECU is still running the standard Ford maps, unlike a remap where the tuner could be overwriting the Ford maps with anything and bypassing their safe limits

The spider will NEVER send a load (MAP) or fuel pressure signal that is out of the range of those sent by the sensors in normal use, it may just send it earlier or hold it longer. Also the ECU would be throwing fault codes right left and centre (none on my car)

If the spider was to over fuel the engine in the way you suggest, then the Ford ECU would be able to tell from the myriad of other sensors and would back it off. Maximum power is when the fuel/air/load/timing ratios etc are spot on, just bunging in more fuel like the cheaper variable resistor plug-ins do, wont achieve much, however tricking the engine into adding the right amount of fuel and change the timing to vary the load in the desired manner and checking it thousands of times a second does work fine and can be far more accurate than a human that holds the car at a fixed rev and tweaks probably the same parameters till max power and then moves to the next rev etc and stores that as a map. It was kind of right on that car, but is your car the same. The Spider adjusts for your actual car thousands of times a second

I've had Superchip tunes in the past that worked the same way, the tuner cut into the harness and tweaked the signals via a piggyback ECU (that car did 200K miles like that) and I've had a Bluefin, that when I added a custom Air inlet, left a big flat spot at 3000 as the set map couldn't deal with the increase in air, so the mix leaned out. I know these were older cars that don't have the multiple maps and parameters that the Focus ECU does but is shows that remapping is not perfect either

Also you can very clearly see via the OBD on the Focus the numbers of accesses to the maps there has been, each time you send the Bluefin map to the ECU or reset it back it increases the count that would normally be 1. i.e. Ford can easily tell you have been playing. Mind you it also keeps tags on when the Fault codes are cleared etc

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The spider doesnt increase the fuel, It fools the FORD ECU into increasing the fuel with the matching safe parameters for timing and injector pulse etc. That's not over fuelled, that's correctly fuelled for the power output. The spider only changes the voltages back to the ECU from the sensors

Unlike a MAP where they could have changed stuff outside the correct envelope for your car, (I trust Bluefin not to have though), and how do you think the Bluefin gets the extra power? oh yes it changes the timing and injector pulses, exactly the same as how the Spider works, ie more fuel goes in (But as with the Spider, with the right ratio of air and timing)

Basically with a map or any sort you are trusting the human that built the map, with the spider you are trusting an ECU that's trimming on the fly, 20,000 times a second

The Spider also backs off the tuning if you drive gently, whereas the Bluefin uses the same map all the time (even when cold engine)

Does your Bluefin have a built in (and adjustable) warm up period before it alters the values from normal? Does it have voltage spike suppression when being plugged in?, what would happen if it for some reason shut down half way through writing a map? Plus the risk of the initial chip being played with on the 1.6 115

The Bluefin tune is very mild though at 134HP and 314nm torque, probably equivalent to Fast road 2 or 3 on the Spider which is where I suspect most folks will leave it (mines on 3). Looking through all the mappers and tuning boxes, that's a mid level tune and The Spider Race setting is still below what many say they can get

We are always going to disagree on this and I wont convince you, but the Spider is way different from many of the tuning boxes out there. Monitoring my engine through ODB diagnostics and OpenXC interfaces I can see all parameters are normal on the engine, engine temp, EGT, DPF pressure before and after, turbo boost are all the same as before and cover the same ranges. I am not worried at all and I have a 10 year Warranty (how longs the Bluefins?)

But it is good to argue the pro's and cons of these devices, none are perfect and of course all will increase our use of the lead foot at some time which will accelerate wear and therefore demand a good servicing and maintenance routine. Why cant Ford dynamically tune the engine to get more power and fuel economy (oh yes, that wont make the industry or fuel companies happy) as all these mappers and tuners seem to be able to do easily

S

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All cars are tuned to a 'happy medium' in order to encompass varying fuel quality/atmosperic differences across the area that they are sold.

In the UK with generally cooler/denser air a remap will give more gains than one applied in a hot country with less dense air.

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So TXS your 1st 2 paragraphs reply is what Spider got back to you with or your interpretation of?

Madmole. You have swayed me towards the Spider. My replies from Celtic have been, how can I say, pre written. (Someone else got the exact same reply as me (can't remember which forum tho))

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Tazzman, dieseltuning.co.uk have a live help thing, wait till monday and you can chat to them and ask all the questions you want. When I had a fitting issues (ford had used a 4 pin plug on my MAP instead of the normal 3 pin) their chief engineering was emailing me within 10 mins, identified the problem and personally run to the post office with my new cable to make sure it caught that days post

They also have a good FAQ with answers to all the points raised here (plus I have talked to their engineering team in the past on exactly how it works)

And we currently have our discount code, so you get a ton off

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My considered interpretation based on fact

It must be remembered that the principle of operation of a diesel engine is very different to that of a petrol engine & what may work well in a dpf less petrol engine won't in a dpf equipped diesel

My questions related to a 200bhp / 420nm Ford / PSA diesel engine & not a 115bhp petrol engine

The company agree that their product is essentially a micro processor controlled '' piggyback ecu '' which accesses live readings from the cars sensors to which it is attached & consequently intercepts the data from them & makes different control commands to those of the standard ecu whilst allowing the cars standard ecu to make all other decisions

To do this properly the box would need far more than just two connections

The issue is that the box is only attached to 2 sensors - & on a diesel these are vital - commonrail fuel pressure & mass air flow - & as previously stated the box tricks or fools the cars ecu with these two incoming sets of data, although the ecu is not tricked or fooled on any other vital engine parameter, so when the ecu thinks there is x amount of fuel pressure & x amount of oxygen, there is actually more, & there has to be or there would be no increase in output, the ecu is unaware of this & consequently cannot command or instruct the remaining hardware on the vehicle with the data it needs to operate in accordance with the extra fuel & air inputs

With the extra fuel & air the engine is now making more power - hence the improved performance - so more bhp & torque, problem is that the ecu is not only unaware of increased fuel & air inputs, but also an increased unknown torque factor & that's stressing the gearbox & other drivetrain components & is unmanaged by the ecu.

Of course no company is going to openly admit that their product could damage ones vehicle

With a professional remap all the original engine performance data is either tweaked or overwritten with gains in bhp & torque commonly being in the region of + 20%, which is within the engines design tolerances & consequently the ecu is aware of all data input from all the vehicles sensors - not just two.

No doubt there is a place for modern tuning boxes & people do use them to good effect - they are just not for me or any vehicle I own & each person is entitled to make their own decision :)

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My considered interpretation based on fact

It must be remembered that the principle of operation of a diesel engine is very different to that of a petrol engine & what may work well in a dpf less petrol engine won't in a dpf equipped diesel

My questions related to a 200bhp / 420nm Ford / PSA diesel engine & not a 115bhp petrol engine Mine is the 1.6 115 HP diesel

The company agree that their product is essentially a micro processor controlled '' piggyback ecu '' which accesses live readings from the cars sensors to which it is attached & consequently intercepts the data from them & makes different control commands to those of the standard ecu whilst allowing the cars standard ecu to make all other decisions. The spider doesn't make any commands to the EECU, it just changes the voltage returned from the 2 sensors. The Ford ECU does all the command generation. Oh and I used to own an ex Ford works 340 BHP 2.0l BTCC Mondeo, guess what, Ford had this tweaked by a Superchip Piggyback ECU controlling the MAP and fuel pressure only (I had to have it detuned by Superchips as it was too much for a road car)

To do this properly the box would need far more than just two connections. Nope, the controlling ECU is still connected to ALL sensors. I think that's what your not getting the Spider is not the controller, the Ford Original ECU is and its still operating the car within all the parameters Ford built in, the spider just makes it bring on those parameters at different times and durations. The car still has its knock sensors, temperature sensors, MAF, EGT, DPF pressure etc and the FORD ECU is still using these to set the parameters, not the Spider

The issue is that the box is only attached to 2 sensors - & on a diesel these are vital - commonrail fuel pressure & mass air flow - & as previously stated the box tricks or fools the cars ecu with these two incoming sets of data, although the ecu is not tricked or fooled on any other vital engine parameter, so when the ecu thinks there is x amount of fuel pressure & x amount of oxygen, there is actually more, & there has to be or there would be no increase in output, the ecu is unaware of this & consequently cannot command or instruct the remaining hardware on the vehicle with the data it needs to operate in accordance with the extra fuel & air inputs. But the FORD ECU has several other sensors involved like the MAF so it IS monitoring other parameters. The Spider wont suddenly fool the Fprd ECU into thinking there is 100psi less fuel pressure and expect the engine to slam up the injector open duration to compensate. That would overfuel and not be optimum. It will learn what is the correct rate to lower the indicated fuel pressure so the engine can cope and smoothly increase the fuelling, while still adjusting the timing etc to get the Stoich burn ratio correct still. It can monitor the MAP to see how well it achieves this. It can also try a little faster and a little slower (20,000 tries a second) to work out the optimum rate on the fly. A fixed map like the Bluefin has a set fuelling increase rate and that's it, regardless of the load, age of engine, driving style etc. So you could argue the Spider is safer here than the map. That's part of the configuration routine as the chip Zero's in on the optimal setting for your engine, and this can be re-triggered at any time if you change something

With the extra fuel & air the engine is now making more power - hence the improved performance - so more bhp & torque, problem is that the ecu is not only unaware of increased fuel & air inputs, but also an increased unknown torque factor & that's stressing the gearbox & other drivetrain components & is unmanaged by the ecu.

Of course no company is going to openly admit that their product could damage ones vehicle. Its driving with a heavy foot that increases the wear. if you drive lightly the Spider is altering the fuelling LESS than the Bluefin. That's true with no tuning as well

With a professional remap all the original engine performance data is either tweaked or overwritten with gains in bhp & torque commonly being in the region of + 20%, which is within the engines design tolerances & consequently the ecu is aware of all data input from all the vehicles sensors - not just two. mmm so how many engine parameters does the Bluefin tweak? it will be timing and injector duration, exactly the same parameters that the Spider fools the ECU into altering. The Spider CANT alter these out of the Ford specified ranges, the Bluefin could, but have Bluefin given you the information needed to know this. What is the Bluefin map, who built it, was the base car new, old, what fuel was it run on?

No doubt there is a place for modern tuning boxes & people do use them to good effect - they are just not for me or any vehicle I own & each person is entitled to make their own decision :) Your choice, 2 technologies to achieve the same end goal, both have potential downfalls and benefits. for me the loss of warranty was not an option, the other issue I had with the Bluefin was that I was not there when the map was built, how much care was taken, how good was the tuner etc, its also a one map fits all regardless of driving style, age, fuel etc

My take, Both work, take your pick. I have had all the options on past cars but the dynamic nature of the spider, its driving style senso and the fact its constantly adapting to my car swung it for me. It works, car has more power, better fuel economy and is a LOT smoother running. I have fitted stiffer engine mounts and decreased the service interval to offset the times when I use the extra.

What I really like is when I drive the wife or mother-in-law around sedately it gives me huge fuel savings and smoothness, but if I want the power/torque I can just alter my driving style and its there instantly.

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Just for the hell of it I'm going to buy this box & see how it compares to my bespoke ( Car dyno'd, ecu remapped, car dyno'd, remap tweaked & car finally dyno'd & original map stored on Bluefin device ) Superchips remap on my TXS.

I'll update in a couple of months time :)

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Identical loan car arranged, albeit with slightly higher mileage than mine ( as I said I'd never fit this box to my car ) :) just waiting for the box to arrive & i'll give it a 2 week trial :)

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Identical loan car arranged, albeit with slightly higher mileage than mine ( as I said I'd never fit this box to my car ) :) just waiting for the box to arrive & i'll give it a 2 week trial :)

Have you fitted the box now Mark, first impressions?

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Day 1, drove my mate's standard TXS from south Wales to Bristol airport & back,160 miles, to drop them off & very surprised at the difference between my Superchipped & his standard, not forgetting that standard still has 197 bhp & 420nm

Day 2, fitted the box, followed destructions to the T & drove 125 miles to Chester, no real conclusions to draw so far other than it's better than standard

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Day 1, drove my mate's standard TXS from south Wales to Bristol airport & back,160 miles, to drop them off & very surprised at the difference between my Superchipped & his standard, not forgetting that standard still has 197 bhp & 420nm

Day 2, fitted the box, followed destructions to the T & drove 125 miles to Chester, no real conclusions to draw so far other than it's better than standard

Well thats not very impressive then! Did you try opening it up fully or just general driving?

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you start it off in ECO mode, so wouldn't expect massive gains to start. Also as he is in holiday drive mode it will favour economy. Wait till he ups the mode and pushes it, try fast road 2 next 8)

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Just general Motorway driving on day 1 & a little more interesting on day 2 with twisty & turny roads towards Chester, so much more use of the gears :)

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Day 3 - mainly M6 up towards Ingleton - acceleration not as impressive but I'm not sure of the claimed bhp & nm of the box - seems less than Superchips @ 230 bhp & 505nm

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Day 4, a testing 40 mile drive from Ingleton to Richmond across the National park via The Tan Hill pub (Britain's highest @ 1732ft above sea level ) with plenty of inclines & declines so using 2nd & 3rd gears a lot & noticing the lack of torque with the box & also fuel consumption is struggling

Day 5, a 120 mile jaunt from Richmond to the Swan Hotel & Spa at the southern tip of Lake Windermere via the A66 mainly at cruising speed so no obvious pro's or cons

Fuel consumption is barely 35 mpg over the 420 odd miles covered so far - which is disappointing :angry:

Days 6 & 7 no driving, but plenty of drinking :)

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