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2011 Ford Focus Mk3 1.6 Tdci Re-Map


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#31 MONDEO TXS 2.2

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Posted 21 August 2015 - 06:15 PM

Others may be happy with the spider box & that's fine - I would not use it & that's fine too



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#32 madmole

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Posted 21 August 2015 - 08:44 PM

The spider doesnt increase the fuel, It fools the FORD ECU into increasing the fuel with the matching safe parameters for timing and injector pulse etc. That's not over fuelled, that's correctly fuelled for the power output. The spider only changes the voltages back to the ECU from the sensors

 

Unlike a MAP where they could have changed stuff outside the correct envelope for your car, (I trust Bluefin not to have though), and how do you think the Bluefin gets the extra power? oh yes it changes the timing and injector pulses, exactly the same as how the Spider works, ie more fuel goes in (But as with the Spider, with the right ratio of air and timing)

 

Basically with a map or any sort you are trusting the human that built the map, with the spider you are trusting an ECU that's trimming on the fly, 20,000 times a second

 

The Spider also backs off the tuning if you drive gently, whereas the Bluefin uses the same map all the time (even when cold engine)

 

Does your Bluefin have a built in (and adjustable) warm up period before it alters the values from normal? Does it have voltage spike suppression when being plugged in?, what would happen if it for some reason shut down half way through writing a map? Plus the risk of the initial chip being played with on the 1.6 115

 

The Bluefin tune is very mild though at 134HP and 314nm torque, probably equivalent to Fast road 2 or 3 on the Spider which is where I suspect most folks will leave it (mines on 3). Looking through all the mappers and tuning boxes, that's a mid level tune and The Spider Race setting is still below what many say they can get

 

We are always going to disagree on this and I wont convince you, but the Spider is way different from many of the tuning boxes out there. Monitoring my engine through ODB diagnostics and OpenXC interfaces I can see all parameters are normal on the engine, engine temp, EGT, DPF pressure before and after, turbo boost are all the same as before and cover the same ranges. I am not worried at all and I have a 10 year Warranty (how longs the Bluefins?)

 

But it is good to argue the pro's and cons of these devices, none are perfect and of course all will increase our use of the lead foot at some time which will accelerate wear and therefore demand a good servicing and maintenance routine. Why cant Ford dynamically tune the engine to get more power and fuel economy (oh yes, that wont make the industry or fuel companies happy) as all these mappers and tuners seem to be able to do easily

 

S



#33 Stoney871

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Posted 21 August 2015 - 09:08 PM

All cars are tuned to a 'happy medium' in order to encompass varying fuel quality/atmosperic differences across the area that they are sold.
In the UK with generally cooler/denser air a remap will give more gains than one applied in a hot country with less dense air.

#34 tazzman600

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Posted 21 August 2015 - 09:14 PM

So TXS your 1st 2 paragraphs reply is what Spider got back to you with or your interpretation of?
Madmole. You have swayed me towards the Spider. My replies from Celtic have been, how can I say, pre written. (Someone else got the exact same reply as me (can't remember which forum tho))

#35 madmole

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Posted 21 August 2015 - 09:40 PM

Tazzman, dieseltuning.co.uk have a live help thing, wait till monday and you can chat to them and ask all the questions you want. When I had a fitting issues (ford had used a 4 pin plug on my MAP instead of the normal 3 pin) their chief engineering was emailing me within 10 mins, identified the problem and personally run to the post office with my new cable to make sure it caught that days post

 

They also have a good FAQ with answers to all the points raised here (plus I have talked to their engineering team in the past on exactly how it works)

 

And we currently have our discount code, so you get a ton off



#36 MONDEO TXS 2.2

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Posted 22 August 2015 - 08:55 AM

My considered interpretation based on fact

 

It must be remembered that the principle of operation of a diesel engine is very different to that of a petrol engine & what may work well in a dpf less petrol engine won't in a dpf equipped diesel

 

My questions related to a 200bhp / 420nm Ford / PSA diesel engine & not a 115bhp petrol engine

 

The company agree that their product is essentially a micro processor controlled '' piggyback ecu '' which accesses live readings from the cars sensors to which it is attached & consequently intercepts the data from them & makes different control commands to those of the standard ecu whilst allowing the cars standard ecu to make all other decisions

 

To do this properly the box would need far more than just two connections

 

The issue is that the box is only attached to 2 sensors - & on a diesel these are vital - commonrail fuel pressure & mass air flow - & as previously stated the box tricks or fools the cars ecu with these two incoming sets of data, although the ecu is not tricked or fooled on any other vital engine parameter, so when the ecu thinks there is x amount of fuel pressure & x amount of oxygen, there is actually more, & there has to be or there would be no increase in output, the ecu is unaware of this & consequently cannot command or instruct the remaining hardware on the vehicle with the data it needs to operate in accordance with the extra fuel & air inputs

 

With the extra fuel & air the engine is now making more power - hence the improved performance - so more bhp & torque, problem is that the ecu is not only unaware of increased fuel & air inputs, but also an increased unknown torque factor & that's stressing the gearbox & other drivetrain components & is unmanaged by the ecu.

 

Of course no company is going to openly admit that their product could damage ones vehicle

 

With a professional remap all the original engine performance data is either tweaked or overwritten with gains in bhp & torque commonly being in the region of + 20%, which is within the engines design tolerances & consequently the ecu is aware of all data input from all the vehicles sensors - not just two.

 

No doubt there is a place for modern tuning boxes & people do use them to good effect - they are just not for me or any vehicle I own & each person is entitled to make their own decision :)



#37 madmole

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Posted 22 August 2015 - 10:38 AM

My considered interpretation based on fact

 

It must be remembered that the principle of operation of a diesel engine is very different to that of a petrol engine & what may work well in a dpf less petrol engine won't in a dpf equipped diesel

 

My questions related to a 200bhp / 420nm Ford / PSA diesel engine & not a 115bhp petrol engine  Mine is the 1.6 115 HP diesel

 

The company agree that their product is essentially a micro processor controlled '' piggyback ecu '' which accesses live readings from the cars sensors to which it is attached & consequently intercepts the data from them & makes different control commands to those of the standard ecu whilst allowing the cars standard ecu to make all other decisions. The spider doesn't make any commands to the EECU, it just changes the voltage returned from the 2 sensors. The Ford ECU does all the command generation. Oh and I used to own an ex Ford works 340 BHP 2.0l BTCC Mondeo, guess what, Ford had this tweaked by a Superchip Piggyback ECU controlling the MAP and fuel pressure only (I had to have it detuned by Superchips as it was too much for a road car)

 

To do this properly the box would need far more than just two connections. Nope, the controlling ECU is still connected to ALL sensors. I think that's what your not getting the Spider is not the controller, the Ford Original ECU is and its still operating the car within all the parameters Ford built in, the spider just makes it bring on those parameters at different times and durations. The car still has its knock sensors, temperature sensors, MAF, EGT, DPF pressure etc and the FORD ECU is still using these to set the parameters, not the Spider

 

The issue is that the box is only attached to 2 sensors - & on a diesel these are vital - commonrail fuel pressure & mass air flow - & as previously stated the box tricks or fools the cars ecu with these two incoming sets of data, although the ecu is not tricked or fooled on any other vital engine parameter, so when the ecu thinks there is x amount of fuel pressure & x amount of oxygen, there is actually more, & there has to be or there would be no increase in output, the ecu is unaware of this & consequently cannot command or instruct the remaining hardware on the vehicle with the data it needs to operate in accordance with the extra fuel & air inputs. But the FORD ECU has several other sensors involved like the MAF so it IS monitoring other parameters. The Spider wont suddenly fool the Fprd ECU into thinking there is 100psi less fuel pressure and expect the engine to slam up the injector open duration to compensate. That would overfuel and not be optimum. It will learn what is the correct rate to lower the indicated fuel pressure so the engine can cope and smoothly increase the fuelling, while still adjusting the timing etc to get the Stoich burn ratio correct still. It can monitor the MAP to see how well it achieves this. It can also try a little faster and a little slower (20,000 tries a second) to work out the optimum rate on the fly. A fixed map like the Bluefin has a set fuelling increase rate and that's it, regardless of the load, age of engine, driving style etc. So you could argue the Spider is safer here than the map. That's part of the configuration routine as the chip Zero's in on the optimal setting for your engine, and this can be re-triggered at any time if you change something

 

With the extra fuel & air the engine is now making more power - hence the improved performance - so more bhp & torque, problem is that the ecu is not only unaware of increased fuel & air inputs, but also an increased unknown torque factor & that's stressing the gearbox & other drivetrain components & is unmanaged by the ecu.

 

Of course no company is going to openly admit that their product could damage ones vehicle. Its driving with a heavy foot that increases the wear. if you drive lightly the Spider is altering the fuelling LESS than the Bluefin. That's true with no tuning as well

 

With a professional remap all the original engine performance data is either tweaked or overwritten with gains in bhp & torque commonly being in the region of + 20%, which is within the engines design tolerances & consequently the ecu is aware of all data input from all the vehicles sensors - not just two. mmm so how many engine parameters does the Bluefin tweak? it will be timing and injector duration, exactly the same parameters that the Spider fools the ECU into altering. The Spider CANT alter these out of the Ford specified ranges, the Bluefin could, but have Bluefin given you the information needed to know this. What is the Bluefin map, who built it, was the base car new, old, what fuel was it run on?

 

No doubt there is a place for modern tuning boxes & people do use them to good effect - they are just not for me or any vehicle I own & each person is entitled to make their own decision :) Your choice, 2 technologies to achieve the same end goal, both have potential downfalls and benefits. for me the loss of warranty was not an option, the other issue I had with the Bluefin was that I was not there when the map was built, how much care was taken, how good was the tuner etc, its also a one map fits all regardless of driving style, age, fuel etc

 

My take, Both work, take your pick. I have had all the options on past cars but the dynamic nature of the spider, its driving style senso and the fact its constantly adapting to my car swung it for me. It works, car has more power, better fuel economy and is a LOT smoother running. I have fitted stiffer engine mounts and decreased the service interval to offset the times when I use the extra.

 

What I really like is when I drive the wife or mother-in-law around sedately it gives me huge fuel savings and smoothness, but if I want the power/torque I can just alter my driving style and its there instantly.



#38 MONDEO TXS 2.2

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Posted 22 August 2015 - 01:35 PM

Admitted typo - 115bhp petrol should have read 115bhp diesel



#39 MONDEO TXS 2.2

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Posted 22 August 2015 - 04:32 PM

Just for the hell of it I'm going to buy this box & see how it compares to my bespoke ( Car dyno'd, ecu remapped, car dyno'd, remap tweaked & car finally dyno'd & original map stored on Bluefin device ) Superchips remap on my TXS.

 

I'll update in a couple of months time :)



#40 madmole

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Posted 22 August 2015 - 04:56 PM

Now that will be an interesting comparison. Nice idea 8)



#41 theredfox

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Posted 23 August 2015 - 12:06 AM

look forward to your updates txs



#42 MONDEO TXS 2.2

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Posted 24 August 2015 - 03:13 PM

Identical loan car arranged, albeit with slightly higher mileage than mine ( as I said I'd never fit this box to my car ) :) just waiting for the box to arrive & i'll give it a 2 week trial :) 



#43 WES180

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Posted Today, 08:50 AM

Identical loan car arranged, albeit with slightly higher mileage than mine ( as I said I'd never fit this box to my car ) :) just waiting for the box to arrive & i'll give it a 2 week trial :) 

Have you fitted the box now Mark, first impressions?

#44 MONDEO TXS 2.2

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Posted Today, 10:09 AM

Yes, currently touring North Yorkshire with the Lake District to follow from Wednesday & i'll update soon :)



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