Rough Idle On A 2004 2.0 Tdci

[plumbob]

Today i had the car returned to me from fords with the following work done, there was a free vehicle inspection included which was nice as it highlighted a few things but moving on to the more serious stuff the car was given a diagnosis check and a quick check over to see if there was anything visible that might be causing the chug. And the result is that....... the car had a number of fault codes that were cleared and did not return when the car was run on the diagnostic machine, i was given a printout with all the error codes and their meaning but i know that they have all been caused by various sensors/injectors being unplugged whilst the engine was running in the hope of finding something faulty.

The next step would be a leak off test as they suspect an injector fault but to be honest the car is strangely getting better, it has improved after all the cleaning and filter changes and it returned today running better than when it left which is a bit of a mystery but i am just hoping it is the injector cleaner taking effect so it should improve through use.

I will admit i had my doubts about ford but its fair to say that other than the poor quality service i received from some of the staff the car was checked over, i was given a proper readout with all the errors included, a free vehicle inspection, the car was picked up and delivered back to me free off charge and it only cost me £50. The only thing left to do is return tomorrow to check if the software was updated as the readout does not say but all in all i am pleased with the work carried out and the cost of it.

[b44dam]

what injector cleaner did you use? also did one of your faults include 'injector fault'?

[turbine]

what injector cleaner did you use? also did one of your faults include 'injector fault'?

Plumbob, in desperation Ive tried every diesel cleaner on the market and some that can only be supplied by diesel specialists. Ive put two stroke oil in the system to lube the pump and all to no avail.

I/we would be very interested to know if Ford updated your ECU programming ('reflash').

[Z3 MON]

I also would be interested to know what cleaner you used and if they updated the ECU

[turbine]

I also would be interested to know what cleaner you used and if they updated the ECU

Dave, I posted earlier asking for vacuum details to help with your LP check.

No response.

The messy alternative is to rig a small tank of clean diesel supplying your pump direct.

If the chug clears then it's surely the LP side causing your fault.

If it clears when the tank is higher or level with the HP pump, but returns when its lower, then its probably your lift pump internal to the HP pump thats dying.

If it proves to be your LP side, the first step is to check for excess air by rigging a clear plastic pipe from the filter to the HP pump inlet. If after a few minutes you still have a lot of air in there, that shows there may be a LP leak on the filter or before.

If the plastic tube collapses, or gets very easy to compress it could show there is a blockage somewhere on the filter or its feed lines etc.

[b44dam]

sorry, im a bit stupid lol! what does lp stand for? adam

[b44dam]

lift pump lol what about HP?

[plumbob]

The diesel cleaner i am using is called liqui moly, i am probably going to get in trouble with the mods for this but here is the link http://www.liqui-moly.de/liquimoly/produktdb.nsf/id/en_5144.html?Opendocument&land=GB&voilalang=e&voiladb=web.nsf

I added it to the new fuel filter 50/50 and to the fuel tank. Its a specialist cleaner which is about £15 a can, i am fortunate in that my father has to service the lorries at his work so i can get the cleaner for free. Like i have already stated though i don't know if it is this that is working or the fact that so many other things have been cleaned or changed. I haven't managed to get to fords either to query them about the software update but i am busy at the moment trying to cancel my current insurance (van) so i can insure the car but my provider has about two people at a call centre and the "system" is down at the moment. Bunch of male chickens!

[Z3 MON]

LP = Low Pressure

HP = High Pressure

Turbine - sorry mate must have completley not read it or forgotten, i have no idea on vaccum details, how would i obtain these?

update time/what i found today.

Last time when i wiggled the broken lead on the first injector it didnt make any noticeable difference, today i wiggled and noticed nothing so carried on looking round the car and though, hmm she sounds a bit more like a normal diesel and so i sat in the car and noticed no real missfire/wobble. Tried wiggling the plug again but it didnt changed to a rough idle, or anything. rev'd it a little and it went back to a rough idle for about 10 seconds and went to good again, im still not 100% that that is the only issue.

Had a butchers underneath at the tank (below is a vid, its poor but you might spot something in havent) i noticed a big rubber gromet towards the top on the drivers side, nothing going in it but there does seem to be a hole there? it does smell like diesel, not massivley but you can smell it as there is a patch on the floor there which is old but i dont remeber it being there when we had the old car.

http://s171.photobuc...t=VIDEO0011.mp4

Also under the car at the front i notice on the gearbox where the gearbox joins ther engine there appears to be trace of oil:

the car does seem a bit rusty underneath for a 2004?

any ideas and thoughts welcome as always.

also can someone clarefy which pipe i changed to a clear one and where (ie between which points) to check for air in the fuel. also if you know what size pipe that would be great.

cheers

dave

[Z3 MON]

is this likley to be my issue:

Ford Focus and Mondeo 1.8 2.0 TDCi 2000 - 2003

Problem: Engine hard to start, lack of power, rough idling etc.

Solution: A common problem has been identified with the above models and an insufficient signal from the camshaft postion sensor (CPS). The fault code P0340 may have been triggered which relates to the CPS. A revised wiring harness / sensor should be installed which increases the sensor signal from 5 volts to 12 volts. The increase in voltage will provide a better signal from the sensor.

[turbine]

" i have no idea on vaccum details, how would i obtain these?"

Dave, I was asking on your behalf re LP fuel system suction values just in case some guru knew, so you could compare, but obviously not hence my alternative test.

is this likley to be my issue:

Ford Focus and Mondeo 1.8 2.0 TDCi 2000 - 2003

Problem: Engine hard to start, lack of power, rough idling etc.

Solution: A common problem has been identified with the above models and an insufficient signal from the camshaft postion sensor (CPS). The fault code P0340 may have been triggered which relates to the CPS. A revised wiring harness / sensor should be installed which increases the sensor signal from 5 volts to 12 volts. The increase in voltage will provide a better signal from the sensor.

I replaced the cam sensor on my Jag a few months ago, and due the information you include above I measured the voltage to be 5v not 12v therefore I know my car is pre-mod. Jaguar diagnostics did not find a problem with the sensor signal, and I am not having the slightest starting problems, but it doesnt rule it out.

The mod is on a list of 'desperation' items I am going to work through before I chop it in.

DIY might be as easy as disconnecting the 5v feed at the sensor plug and running a 12v feed to the sensor from an ignition 'live' via a 200mA inline fuse but without all the details of the pukka mod I'm not happy to try it.

Has anyone reading this had the mod done? Did it work and what did it cost? Does anyone have any design/details?

[Z3 MON]

Sorry mate I read it wrong.

When pay day comes ill be putting in a new injector loom due to my broken connector.

Also ill be getting a few parts from the scrapped and try giving them ago.

The car does smell rich, it also sounds like it has an exhaust leak but I'm not sure if its just the flexi pipe as its coming from the front

[plumbob]

I dropped into fords today to speak to the customer service adviser (what ever his title is) to ask him whether the update was done or needed, his reply was that no update was offered ( iam presuming he meant by the diagnostic computer) but i will be honest and say i didn't trust him one bit.

I took the family to Gullivers land in milton keynes today as its a good 100 mile round trip and i will be honest and say the car is continuing to improve in regards to the tick over although it is still a little rough when cold.

I have managed to find some more info that may add another piece to the puzzle in regards to the issue i have when trying to start the car from warm (its a real pig) and you just never know it may be of some use to everyone else, the engine has a cylinder temperature sensor aswell as an oil temperature sensor and i have been told if either of these are faulty they will cause the issue i have but after watching this on youtube

it makes you wonder if one of these or another engine sensor may be to fault for one of the other guys on hear.

[plumbob]

Just an update: the car is in a different ford dealers being checked for any ECU (PCM) updates, i don't believe a word the other garage said as the guy never wrote on the to do list "check for software update". Once i am sure of this i will go to work sorting out the rough idle (if it still exists) so hopefully we might be able to solve this for everyone.

One thing to note is the idle at warm now is very good, only at cold its rough now but it still continues to be a pain to start when warm.

[Z3 MON]

Today antics:

The missus filled the car with 53.7litres of diesel, turned around had a chat with some women looked down and diesel is !Removed! it out, this slowed to a trickle and she called green flag..after waiting an hour it had stopped dripping so she fired her up because she was fed up of waiting. And again !Removed! loads of diesel passes out, an hour and a half after that (2 and a half hours after first ringing) on time turned up (Wtf we called green flag) the bloke actually works in the garage not roadside but there was no one else.

Any way he found there to be a few issues. p0251 which we already know, the bit that screws in ontop of the tank was losse (he said it wasn't sealing very well even after tightening it) he also said the filter on the return pipe to the tank also gets clogged and could be the cause for the fault code and running issue. Anyway he let the missus on.her way 3 minutes later "tick" followed shortly by "crack" and we now have a rather useless !Removed! windscreen with a 30cm !Removed! crack down it.

So all in all 4 days before pay day.

What the f**k did I do wrong.

So list of things to do in order are

*get a new windscreen

*get a new fuel tank sender cover thing

* get new injection loom

* refit/re blank egr

* find out where the oil leak is from

*research this inline filter thing

*drive the car into a river, or better the sea....

Now the other day I found lots of dust and glass under the back seat, presumably from the accident and repairs. Seeing as the tank wasn't sealed proper I recon some of the dust has got in the tank causing the running issues in the first place.

looked in the back under the seats and found the following:

firstly what is the plug acctually for?

secondly it looks chopped? any reason for this?

thirdly how dcan there be diesel this high up a seal is broken and the pipes are fine?

as always all ideas welcome

[plumbob]

I am actually starting to feel pretty sorry for you now dave, just don't post anything on here about murdering that pole :D .

That looks to me like your fuel gauge sender unit, i don't know what they are like on mondeos but they are not normally to difficult to remove and replace the seal. In regards to your oil leak try all your rocker cover bolts to see if they are all tight, some of mine were loose and were causing a few small oil stains down the side of the head.

Best of luck!

Just out of interest did you get the car HPI checked?

I forgot to mention that i got the car back today from the other ford dealer, it DID need a software update so the t*@t was lying from the other ford dealer. Starts much much better from warm now and they were good enough to find the code for my radio and write it on the technical sheet. It cost me £38 which is a bargain in my opinion so all thats left to do is to find the reason for the rough idling when cold, i did find this tonight which was a bit of a shocker so i will add that to my list of things to change if nothing else works

that is my cylinder head thermostat which looks like its been damaged by something at some point during its life.

[Z3 MON]

yes i did do a hpi check and it came back as one private plate registered a while ago and prev cat c (that how i knocked so much off the price) I also now have the pictures from the accident as well from my contacts :)

Oki here's my theory.

When it was in the accident I think the cap/lid ha popped up by one thread on one side meaning its sitting wonky thus not sealing. My missus told me the green flag man tightened it up with a tool but it wouldn't go as tight as it should.

Seeing as its so rare for these seals to go I have concluded the above.

My question is will there be enough room to lift it off slightly wiggle It round and get it seated right ??

I think this not sealing is causing air in the fuel tank, causing the bad running.

also Limpmode came on again last night, I noticed that in limp mode the power is the same up to 2500rpm its only after this that you notice a slight power difference between limp mode and no limp mode.

Also on lift off I'm getting a double stuter from the engine??

I've also noticed today, clutch pushed down but gear in reverse and the revs slowly rise but not in first with the clutch down??? Any ideas

if any of you are having similar issues to me i sugest you check the send lid on the fuel tank is tight.

Dave

[Stoney871]

So I was right and there was fuel filler/tank damage after the shunt?

[plumbob]

To be honest i can't see air getting into the fuel tank being a problem, you will have a breather on the tank to stop a vacuum being formed.

As for your engine picking up revs when being put into reverse, mine does the same and i did read somewhere that this is completely normal.

[Z3 MON]

No damage to the tank itself, all lines ect still In place, recovery man said it looked like someone had done work and not put it back right. Damage to the car was on the opposite aide rear quarter

[plumbob]

Just out of interest dave how is the car running now when hot/cold e.t.c?

[Z3 MON]

Update time

Went to the scrap yard and got new injector plugs ( I would recommend getting the whole loom if you can, I couldn't as the car was balanced 3 cars up) also got some pipes to do the turbo 30cm pipe mod along with the nuts for the EGR valve as the last owner screwed mine up.

So I finally got the cap under the rear seat to sit flat and level and got it nice and tight and sealed. Cleaned up all the diesel and cleaned the electrical connections.

I then got the injector plug swapped over (well my dad did) also cleaned the battery terminals. I also re fitted the blank using new bolts so its all nice and tight.

Re connected battery and followed the reset procedure and she was great :) blasted her up the dual carriage way and it was great, stopped at my brothers to drop the tools back, shut her down. Went back out for a bit more of a drive and she went into limpmode, great. Reset car off I went again, on the limp mode came again. Pulled over a reset car glow light off enlarge on, still no turbo...... got to my old man's an had a chat, went bk to car employees still on but turbo decided to make an appearance again. Got home plugged it in cleared the code and employees went out same fuel metering issue.

When the car is idling the engine sounds like it is running even but the exhaust pops and the entire car visually wobbles.

Now there is a tubular like noise from the turbo/manifold area, is this normall?? Could it be a leak? Would that cause a bad idle ???

Also I know a full .mpg brim to brim is best but 1 quarter of a tank to 28 miles??? WTF??

[plumbob]

To be honest dave i think its looking more and more like we will both have to get a leak off test done, your tubular sound might be the turbo spooling up though.

I cleaned out the manifold yesterday which i must say did make a real difference to the car in terms of performance but none in regards to the idle, the car has not been as good since the ECU update i will say that much. Ever since then it seems to be a little hesitant and judders around 2k when there is little or no load on the engine and now its giving me some smoke again if i boot it aswell as laying down a WW2 re-enactment smoke screen whenever i start it from cold. One thing i have noticed the last few days it that the car cools down very quickly, i can stop the car from a decent trip and within maybe 5-10 minutes the temp gauge is almost at zero which is not something i have noticed from any of my previous vehicles.

What are your cars like?.

[Z3 MON]

ive had a leak off test done, it showed nothing

funny you say about the temp issue. i left mine to idle for like 20 minutes and the temp still didnt go up to normal operating temp? only when driven will it go to halfway.

anyway just been paid and already only have £2 left so im in a bad mood. lol

on the bright side the f-supper should be here tomorow.

[Z3 MON]

the car is now running better, you can get away with about 7 miles of spirited driving untill i pops up the gp light, and now does not happen in 3rd any more and happens higher in the rev range.

Fsupper has arrived so ill post some live data over the weekend.