Fiesta Mk7 / Mk8? Heaters Poor

[j200shx]

Hi I have a ford fiesta 2009 shape and was wondering what you all make of the heaters on your car?

mine is the 1.4 tdci and has the manual heating not the fancy climate control,

but for my car to stay at a fairly comfotable temperature and i stress the word comfortable not hot i need to keep the heaters on blower number 3 and red hot anybody else have this problem?

or are all your heater good?

thanks josh

[b1g_dav3]

Mine gets warm fine, the coldness of the air-con is crap though.

[MarkyR]

Love mine! I got the auto air con option and haven't looked back, bar when it cycles every 30 seconds or so the lights dim for a slit second if the cars not under power.

I love getting in at the moment, pressing one button only and I get front and rear demisters and full screen demist on, then turn the auto mode on once it's warmed up.

[sambooka]

My 1.6 tdci zs only seems to be like that when the cars not moving but once its going its brilliant leave it on setting 1 and about half heat

[gwhite73]

I too notice the same with my 1.4 tdci, I have to have the heat set on maximum and the blowers on at least 2 or 3 to get any sort of decent heating out of it. Perhaps it's the diesels that seem to suffer from this?

In my old Mk6 petrol it would be roasting if you had the heat on full. The air con doesn't seem to blow as cold as it did in the Mk6 either...

[StewartM]

The heater on my 1.25 petrol is good.

I note that using ETIS to check specs, the pre-facelift Mk7 diesels don't seem to have a PTC heater, but I put in the reg numbers of a couple of facelifts with Ecoboost and it suggests they get PTC. I wonder if the facelift diesels will get them as well ?

[MarkyR]

The heater on my 1.25 petrol is good.

I note that using ETIS to check specs, the pre-facelift Mk7 diesels don't seem to have a PTC heater, but I put in the reg numbers of a couple of facelifts with Ecoboost and it suggests they get PTC. I wonder if the facelift diesels will get them as well ?

Whats a PTC heater?

[StewartM]

PTC is Positive Temperature Co-efficient. A ceramic based element in the heater unit whose resistance increases with temperature and is to a large degree self-regulating. On a freezing morning you can have warm air 30 secs after start up, hot air by 2 minutes.

Very common on diesels because they take so much longer to warm up and starting to appear on Direct Injection Petrols for the same reason, a lot cheaper than a diesel fired heater and simpler and more energy efficient than a heating element in the coolant. ( Referring to one powered by the car's electrical system after start up, not one which plugs into the mains and can pre-heat the engine.)

[MarkyR]

PTC is Positive Temperature Co-efficient. A ceramic based element in the heater unit whose resistance increases with temperature and is to a large degree self-regulating. On a freezing morning you can have warm air 30 secs after start up, hot air by 2 minutes.

Very common on diesels because they take so much longer to warm up and starting to appear on Direct Injection Petrols for the same reason, a lot cheaper than a diesel fired heater and simpler and more energy efficient than a heating element in the coolant. ( Referring to one powered by the car's electrical system after start up, not one which plugs into the mains and can pre-heat the engine.)

Thanks mate. Sounds like a very good system, wonder if the ST has it??

[fnkymnky]

I had issues about a year ago with the heat only blowing when the car was moving - the air would blow cooler when stationary. Took it in for a full service and it seemed to have been sorted!

[M6 44t car park attendant]

On 1/21/2013 at 7:53 PM, StewartM said:

PTC is Positive Temperature Co-efficient. A ceramic based element in the heater unit whose resistance increases with temperature and is to a large degree self-regulating. On a freezing morning you can have warm air 30 secs after start up, hot air by 2 minutes.

Very common on diesels because they take so much longer to warm up and starting to appear on Direct Injection Petrols for the same reason, a lot cheaper than a diesel fired heater and simpler and more energy efficient than a heating element in the coolant. ( Referring to one powered by the car's electrical system after start up, not one which plugs into the mains and can pre-heat the engine.)

Sorry to resurrect an old thread but I have a fault for the PTC heater after a cold start. Seems obvious it wouldn't show with warm starts as it wouldn't require the extra heat.

Codes are 

b10ea:00-0f

b10ea:00-48

It's a Fiesta 1.6 Duratorq Di Titanium X 2013

I've done some searching around and can't seem to locate it, anyone know the PTC modules location, in the cabin. Part number?

I've checked in the Central config in the IPC in the extended version of FORScan and it is enabled in the (As built) 

[iantt]

If you remove the driver's side trim panel to the left of clutch pedal( normally removed to get at pollen filter) you should see it with red and black thick cables attached to it .I would check the main fuse that supplies it ( normally 80amp fuse near battery) 

Part number 1537539

[M6 44t car park attendant]

6 hours ago, iantt said:

If you remove the driver's side trim panel to the left of clutch pedal( normally removed to get at pollen filter) you should see it with red and black thick cables attached to it .I would check the main fuse that supplies it ( normally 80amp fuse near battery) 

Part number 1537539

So Ive had a look

I do seem to have one. I've got two thick wires to a 2 pin connector block "white/orange stripe"

And a large black earth cable bolted to the steel frame of the center console.

 

Resistance measured between pins 1+2 of the wiring block 0.007ohms and 0.001 ohms to the black earthing point. So the PTC heater itself seems ok.

I can't find that 80a fuse though.

 

There are some fuses on the battery +ve pole 

50A - PTC1 (Now being used for trailer wiring as was empty when I bought the car)

70A - PTC2 I assume this is being used for the heaterplugs?? Or is this the feed?

200A - MAIN

60A - EPAS

 

In the fuse box to the side of the battery, there are some large fuses but they're all 60a or less and are not blown. Is there additional fuses below the visible ones; I had an insignia before this which had a row of the big fuses under the fuse box 🧐

 

In the fuse box behind the glove box the quality voltage fuses along the bottom are a mix of 20A and 30A and again all good.

I can see the thick white/orange stripe wires disappearing towards the bulkhead. To the side of the internal fuse box just above the BCMII.

 

Is it possible there was no fault but a dodgy connection to the PTC?

 

 

[iantt]

I've had a look and fiesta PTC heater works differently to focus. The 70amp fuse feeds 2 PTC relays. Depending on how much heat is required either 1 or both relays switch providing current to one or both white /orange wires .fuse 1 (7.5amp )in central junction box provides the feed to relays  then through relays to instrument cluster 

[M6 44t car park attendant]

46 minutes ago, iantt said:

I've had a look and fiesta PTC heater works differently to focus. The 70amp fuse feeds 2 PTC relays. Depending on how much heat is required either 1 or both relays switch providing current to one or both white /orange wires .fuse 1 (7.5amp )in central junction box provides the feed to relays  then through relays to instrument cluster 

I've checked fuse 1 (7.5amp) in the fuse box behind the glovebox, it's not blown. Actually I've ran a multimeter between every fuse on both boards and they're all ok.

Any chance of finding out which relays are for PTC Low and PTC High?  Which fuse box? Engine bay or internal (behind glove box)?

[iantt]

There is a separate relay box . From what I can find out it's under or near to n/s headlight. 

Have you an owner's manual? May show in there where the relay box is. 

[M6 44t car park attendant]

1 minute ago, iantt said:

There is a separate relay box . From what I can find out it's under or near to n/s headlight. 

Have you an owner's manual? May show in there where the relay box is. 

Ahh ok that explains why all the obvious ones seem too puny for that amount of current.

I wonder if there is separate fuses in there for them too 🤔

I don't have a manual for this car, I used to buy a Haynes or Clymer for every vehicle I bought. I fell out with Haynes for not having test values for components, I have a copy of autodata covering up to 2011 cars and trucks that provides all that. Experience guides me the rest of the way generally speaking. This is the first time I've had a vehicle fitted with a PTC heater.....with the exception of lorries and diesel heaters.

I'll have a look over the weekend and I'll be sure to drop by; fixed or not, and update the thread

 

Thanks again for the pointers 👍🏻

[iantt]

There should be a relay block with 4 relays, two  for PTC heater, one for glow plugs and one for fuel pump

[M6 44t car park attendant]

I have another fault code this morning 

B10EA:00-0E

Cleared all codes in the IPC and the PTC heater sprung into life, instant hot air.

That leads me to believe it must be one of those relays, it's wet here so I'll not be stripping her down today

17 hours ago, iantt said:

There should be a relay block with 4 relays, two  for PTC heater, one for glow plugs and one for fuel pump

 

I think I might have seen that on my travels whilst fitting a forward camera into the front bumper.

I'll take some photos when I get back in there.

[M6 44t car park attendant]

On 12/23/2018 at 1:04 PM, M6 44t car park attendant said:

I have another fault code this morning 

B10EA:00-0E

Cleared all codes in the IPC and the PTC heater sprung into life, instant hot air.

That leads me to believe it must be one of those relays, it's wet here so I'll not be stripping her down today

 

I think I might have seen that on my travels whilst fitting a forward camera into the front bumper.

I'll take some photos when I get back in there.

Here we go then,

 

Firstly, I get this before engine start

B10EA: 00-48

(Fault not present at time of test)

(MIL not illuminated for this fault)

(Awaiting confirmation/ test not complete)

 

Then it changes to either

B10EA: 00-0F  (PTC HIGH? I THINK)

(Fault present at time of test)

(MIL not illuminated for this fault)

OR

B10EA: 00-0E  (PTC LOW? OR VICE VERSA)

(Fault present at time of test)

(MIL not illuminated for this fault)

 

 

Ford cant/won't give a definition so we're fishing in the dark. OBDII Protocols are supposed to be standardised, but it's not an emissions related fault so they can do as they please. Forscan lacks clear definition of these codes

To recap....

I checked and found, continuity through the heater element and to ground(BLACK- 0 AWG or similarly beefy). It would appear that there is a diode inside the PTC element between PIN 1+ 2 (ORANGE/WHITE STRIPE) and that it is working as expected.

 

I checked for any blown fuses.

Control circuit fuse is fuse 1 (7.5A) of the cars internal fuse box (behind glove box)

Load circuit fuse is named PTC2 (70A) it's on the battery VE+ Pole

These were both found to be ok.

 

Iantt suggested I check the relays.

They are located below the N/S headlamp, remove the headlamp to gain easiest access

There are two 70a, normally open, 4 pin relays.

One for PTC Low, One for PTC High

However in very cold temperatures both will activate.

Unfortunately, apart from one relay having just a touch of green on the very edge of a terminal, I found no smoking guns.

Photos as promised.....

 

(BELOW) GREEN/ORANGE STRIPE from battery fuse

WHITE/ORANGE STRIPE to PTC heater (x2 one HIGH, one LOW)

(BELOW) Just the tiniest amount of corrosion at the top of the R/H contact, but that's being VERY OCD and would never cause an issue

(BELOW) You can just see a water stain on the relay connector towards the bottom of this pic.

**to be absolutely safe, I've bagged over the top of this relay box to stave off further water ingress and sprayed WD40 everywhere**

 

So by this point I've ran the multimeter between the control side of both of these relays and found the 12v that would activate the relays.

So we know the control signal from the BMSii is being recieved at the relay.

I've activated the relays manually and found continuity between the FEED and LOAD pins.

So we know that the relays are ok.

 

I reassembled the car and sat back in front of FORScan.  I'm sat feeling the airvent and appreciating the warm air from a stone cold engine when it cools off and I get B10EA: 00-0F

(It was warm for only a few mins)

 

I'm now praying to any God that will listen for a solution.🤦🏻‍♂️

So, I decide that the fault must lie with the control side, not with it's supply but it's activation policy......sensors.

 

Being climate equipped -

It has a blue temp sensor just after the A/C EVAP coil near the clutch pedal, a quick check on FORScan shows this on RECIRC at 6°C with an external temp of 7°C......A/C off temp is 16°C . So that looks ok too.

It has a white temp sensor on top of dash under the nav screen cover. I attempted to check this sensor value in FORScan and TorquePro and found no sensor for "heater duct air temp" or similar ect. 

 

But I did find a sensor called "insidecartemp" in the IPC of FORScan that's reading 215 (no idea what scale) 

Is it 215°C ?? In which case it's that sensor, obviously!!

OR is it 21.5°C

In any case I found where the internal car temp sensor is, it looks like a Focus one.

Resembles a large shotgun cartridge plug on the bottom, motor and fan then air duct with sensor located within,  but holy crap was it dirty!

I cleaned it with compressed air and measured resistance before cleaning at 203ohms, after cleaning 9.7 @ around 16 degrees(guesstimate!) But certainly different!

Plugged in and checked the fan now spins up.

FORScan still shows at 215 though 🧐 

(BELOW) This is where the incartemp sensor is located, in the center console behind the climate controls.

(BELOW) that's 1 dirty hole! Cant even see the sensor 😬

(BELOW) checked the motor on 12v at the board, it spins 👍🏻

(BELOW) carefully pry two clips at the multiplug end and it'll separate but the motor is a PITA, gently wiggle and line it back up or it catches the temp sensor board (grey wires)

I tested the resistance all the way back to the pins....all the same as right on the legs of the thermister, the resistance changes with temperature. So thats now all good......so, unless that sensor is out of its calibrated range, we should be all good.

 

Q. Why would the fault code say PTC heater? It's actually a Climate control issue.

A. Because not allowing the operation of the PTC was the symptom of the fault that was observable........climate control equipped cars see all types of temperatures from different climates it's reasonable that the car just expects to see a range of resistance (temp)

When applying 14.2v to the PTC doesn't do the job, the BCMii assumes that the PTC Heater isn't working. Not that the temp sensor is full of goop.

 

I'd like to thank Iantt for his help🏆

 

I hope this will serve as a guide for anyone who goes searching those fault codes.

 

Edited December 24, 2018 by M6 44t car park attendant
Have sausage fingers: photos randomly attach to odd areas 😂

[iantt]

So it's all working as it should now? Those dtcs are not recognized on my dtc decoder. Strange . 

[M6 44t car park attendant]

1 hour ago, iantt said:

So it's all working as it should now? Those dtcs are not recognized on my dtc decoder. Strange . 

I've been out in the car this morning, no codes and plenty of heat from the word go.

Fixed! 😊

[craig26283]

Mine is warm pretty much right away, but my Titanium X seems to have the auxiliary PTC heater in the mix.   

[Txolin]

On 12/25/2018 at 12:01 AM, M6 44t car park attendant said:

Here we go then,

 

Firstly, I get this before engine start

B10EA: 00-48

(Fault not present at time of test)

(MIL not illuminated for this fault)

(Awaiting confirmation/ test not complete)

 

Then it changes to either

B10EA: 00-0F  (PTC HIGH? I THINK)

(Fault present at time of test)

(MIL not illuminated for this fault)

OR

B10EA: 00-0E  (PTC LOW? OR VICE VERSA)

(Fault present at time of test)

(MIL not illuminated for this fault)

 

 

Ford cant/won't give a definition so we're fishing in the dark. OBDII Protocols are supposed to be standardised, but it's not an emissions related fault so they can do as they please. Forscan lacks clear definition of these codes

To recap....

I checked and found, continuity through the heater element and to ground(BLACK- 0 AWG or similarly beefy). It would appear that there is a diode inside the PTC element between PIN 1+ 2 (ORANGE/WHITE STRIPE) and that it is working as expected.

 

I checked for any blown fuses.

Control circuit fuse is fuse 1 (7.5A) of the cars internal fuse box (behind glove box)

Load circuit fuse is named PTC2 (70A) it's on the battery VE+ Pole

These were both found to be ok.

 

Iantt suggested I check the relays.

They are located below the N/S headlamp, remove the headlamp to gain easiest access

There are two 70a, normally open, 4 pin relays.

One for PTC Low, One for PTC High

However in very cold temperatures both will activate.

Unfortunately, apart from one relay having just a touch of green on the very edge of a terminal, I found no smoking guns.

Photos as promised.....

 

(BELOW) GREEN/ORANGE STRIPE from battery fuse

WHITE/ORANGE STRIPE to PTC heater (x2 one HIGH, one LOW)

(BELOW) Just the tiniest amount of corrosion at the top of the R/H contact, but that's being VERY OCD and would never cause an issue

(BELOW) You can just see a water stain on the relay connector towards the bottom of this pic.

**to be absolutely safe, I've bagged over the top of this relay box to stave off further water ingress and sprayed WD40 everywhere**

 

So by this point I've ran the multimeter between the control side of both of these relays and found the 12v that would activate the relays.

So we know the control signal from the BMSii is being recieved at the relay.

I've activated the relays manually and found continuity between the FEED and LOAD pins.

So we know that the relays are ok.

 

I reassembled the car and sat back in front of FORScan.  I'm sat feeling the airvent and appreciating the warm air from a stone cold engine when it cools off and I get B10EA: 00-0F

(It was warm for only a few mins)

 

I'm now praying to any God that will listen for a solution.🤦🏻‍♂️

So, I decide that the fault must lie with the control side, not with it's supply but it's activation policy......sensors.

 

Being climate equipped -

It has a blue temp sensor just after the A/C EVAP coil near the clutch pedal, a quick check on FORScan shows this on RECIRC at 6°C with an external temp of 7°C......A/C off temp is 16°C . So that looks ok too.

It has a white temp sensor on top of dash under the nav screen cover. I attempted to check this sensor value in FORScan and TorquePro and found no sensor for "heater duct air temp" or similar ect. 

 

But I did find a sensor called "insidecartemp" in the IPC of FORScan that's reading 215 (no idea what scale) 

Is it 215°C ?? In which case it's that sensor, obviously!!

OR is it 21.5°C

In any case I found where the internal car temp sensor is, it looks like a Focus one.

Resembles a large shotgun cartridge plug on the bottom, motor and fan then air duct with sensor located within,  but holy crap was it dirty!

I cleaned it with compressed air and measured resistance before cleaning at 203ohms, after cleaning 9.7 @ around 16 degrees(guesstimate!) But certainly different!

Plugged in and checked the fan now spins up.

FORScan still shows at 215 though 🧐 

(BELOW) This is where the incartemp sensor is located, in the center console behind the climate controls.

(BELOW) that's 1 dirty hole! Cant even see the sensor 😬

(BELOW) checked the motor on 12v at the board, it spins 👍🏻

(BELOW) carefully pry two clips at the multiplug end and it'll separate but the motor is a PITA, gently wiggle and line it back up or it catches the temp sensor board (grey wires)

I tested the resistance all the way back to the pins....all the same as right on the legs of the thermister, the resistance changes with temperature. So thats now all good......so, unless that sensor is out of its calibrated range, we should be all good.

 

Q. Why would the fault code say PTC heater? It's actually a Climate control issue.

A. Because not allowing the operation of the PTC was the symptom of the fault that was observable........climate control equipped cars see all types of temperatures from different climates it's reasonable that the car just expects to see a range of resistance (temp)

When applying 14.2v to the PTC doesn't do the job, the BCMii assumes that the PTC Heater isn't working. Not that the temp sensor is full of goop.

 

I'd like to thank Iantt for his help🏆

 

I hope this will serve as a guide for anyone who goes searching those fault codes.

 

I'VE FOUND "HVAC. IAMT" (AMBIENT INTERNAL TEMPERATURE) AT FORSCAN PIDs. IT SHOWS  REAL CABINE TEMPERATURE. MAYBE IT'S THE PID YOU WERE LOOKING FOR

I STILL HAVE "BCMii.INCARTEMP" IN 215°. I THINK IT WORKS PROPERLY, DON'T WORRY, IT'S OK