How Can I Prevent A Major Turbo Failure (Focus 1.6 Tdci 05)

[JeffFocus]

I guess at the end of the day, by looking at the old oil filter (and sump if you have time to remove) you should get a good idea of how bad things are in the engine. If it's got loads of carbonised oily deposits, then its time to worry!!

[grahamp]

Well, if the turbo goes in future the customer could blame the garage that did the work I guess. Selling the car would be a bit of a hysterical reaction though. Might be worth talking to a Ford service centre as well if you've got one nearby, they might not be as expensive as you'd think and they'll know the issues inside out. The way I see it, if I want 61mpg and a £30 tax disc on a car I can afford to buy I might have to spend a comparatively small bit of money and put some effort in!

You're probably ok reusing the the sump plug and washer but they're only £3 - £4 from the parts shop so use new. There are a couple of minor details with an oil change that might catch you out first time -

. the Haynes manual doesnt mention it but you need to undo 2 bolts on the intercooler pipe to get the filter off and on again. There's a vid showing it here:-

You need a Torx T30 to undo the undertray fasteners, a 21mm socket or spanner for the drain plug and a 27mm as you've mentioned for the filter.

I do the job with the car on the ground, no need to raise the front if you can reach under to undo the 2 undertray screws at the back, though it is easier with it raised. And obviously run the car til its warmed up first.

1. remove engine undertray

2. remove air filter assembly. Don't drop / lose the rubber ring that holds the filter down, I dropped mine inside the rad fan cowl once. While its off you can clean any oil out and check the air filter too.

3. detach the 2 bolts on the intercooler pipe.

4. remove the oil filter (do this before draining the oil)

5. remove oil filler cap, and then sump plug and drain the oil.

6. pull the old filter out of the filter cap, clean up the cap. Note where the old large o-ring was installed and replace with new ( should come with the new filter), then insert new oil filter- its a tight fit and you need to push it fairly hard to click it in.

7. refit everything, refill with 3.8litres of oil (Magnatec 5W30 Ford spec is prob the best).

drain plug: 21mm socket, 34Nm torque

filter cap: 27mm, 24Nm torque

think that's about it :-) I did my last oil change after only 3000 miles as it was used mainly for short cold school runs over last winter- the oil was pretty thick when I chucked it, so well worth sticking to every 6 months or about 6 - 8000 miles depending on conditions.

[grahamp]

I guess at the end of the day, by looking at the old oil filter (and sump if you have time to remove) you should get a good idea of how bad things are in the engine. If it's got loads of carbonised oily deposits, then its time to worry!!

I poured my old oil through one of those funnels with a small metal strainer, sainsbury's sell them for about £1.50... the old oil had a real job getting past it, I had to pull it out in the end. The filter looked pretty clean though. I'd expect the bottom of the sump to be pretty gloopy- looking at my new sump, there's about half an inch at the bottom that doesnt get drained because the drain hole is raised within the sump so the plug can thread in, so not ideal.

[JeffFocus]

Thanks for the instructions, most helpful Graham :)

[grahamp]

NP. Might be worth getting a fluid extractor at some point for removing that last bit of oil in the bottom of the sump. I'll have a think about that when I get the sump off. But its not happening for at least the next 3 weekends, its seems to be kids birthday party season again..

[JeffFocus]

Managed to change the oil and filter following your instructions thanks Graham. All went fine apart from I couldn't see where the o ring seal went that came with the new filter? Nothing seemed to fit it and there wasn't an old seal that I could see? Anyway it all seems fine and there's no oil leaks so I assume it's ok.

No signs of carbonized oil on the filter or in the old oil. The only place I could see it was around the rocker cover by the breather pipe which I would think it normal? it wasn't much, just a light covering. I did try and get the rocker cover off but the injector pipes we're in the way and I didn't want to disturb things too much.

Your link to the turbo failure investigation was an interesting read. However, if you only changed the oil every 30k for the first two years I guess that's what happens?

Good luck with your sump replacement project and make sure you take loads of pics! I'll probably me attempting it later on in the year.

thanks again

Jeff

[Oldbeforemytime]

Quick question for you guys,

When a turbo does go, roughly how much would it cost to replace (assuming no other damage to the engine)

[grahamp]

Hmmm, should've been a large-ish o-ring that fits in a recess at the top of the screw thread on the plastic filter housing.

I've had exactly the same on mine, a little bit of carbonized oil at the breather pipe joint, the carbon here is nothing to worry about. There is a breather valve and filter that AFAIK ought to stop oil coming up here, but unfortunately they are integral with the rocker cover so fixing them means a replacement rocker cover- I wouldn't disturb the injectors myself, so I'll just have to live with it. But where does the oil end up? There's a chance it could get blown through the intercooler and over time could get everything sticky... I've heard of oil damaging the throttle body seal and leaking from it. Something else to check out sometime I guess.

Yep, I've bought the bits so there's no putting it off now. I've probably wasted a fair bit of money on parts that could be cleaned and refitted, but I figured I'd best do it by the book. I can't promise a Haynes-style guide but I'll try and put something together

And yep there are some scary pics of gummed up 1.6's, but there is either some underlying fault or poor maintenance as a cause and you can find similar pics for other makes' engines.

As for turbo cost, no idea. If it has gone they need to figure the cause first and rectify, otherwise the replacement will go as well.

[JeffFocus]

Not sure either on turbo costs. I've seen you can buy turbo's on eBay for £300 but then you need all the other parts they recommend replacing like the oil feed pipe, sump and pump etc. The eBay sites are pretty good at explaining that unless you replace the other parts, there is no warranty on the turbo. I think these work out to be another £200. I've also heard stories that Ford charge around £1500 for "turbo replacement kit" which contains all the bits

Pretty scary really.

Is yours showing signs of failure?

[Oldbeforemytime]

Thank you for the replies.

It's in with a garage and they started looking at it today, they said there'd be no warrenty on the work because Ford themselves say when a turbo goes you should replace the engine. As an employee of the group that made the engine to start with I'm not best pleased and would have avoided that engine if I'd known who it was made by because of the issues that it has.

Haven't been made aware of prices as of yet but I will keep you lot updated with what's gone wrong.

I'm quite hoping that it was low oil that caused it and not something more sinister.

[grahamp]

Oof, another one bites the dust, sorry to hear about your problems :-( There's a very long thread on the Honest John forum of people with the same problem, though the chat there is a bit fixated on injector leak as the only possible cause.

AFAIK Ford don't normally recommend engine replacement - the turbo should be warranted if the work is carried out as per Fords Tech service Bulletin 46/2008 mentioned on page 2 of this convo. Though it has come to engine replacement in some cases where they've tried to clean the engine and its gone on to blow its 2nd and 3rd replacement turbo... Well good luck and hope yours has a happy ending. There was a modification done during production to try and stop it happening- I think they modified the turbo feed pipe so it was away from exhaust heat, to stop it baking the oil in the pipe. If your car is 2005 it'll predate the modification, so that's another possible cause along with carbonised sludgy oil caused by blocked DPF, leaking injector, etc.

[grahamp]

In case anyone's interested, did my car over the weekend, replaced banjo bolts, feed pipe, sump off, cleaned out etc. Car is a 2008 90bhp with no DPF, on 58000 miles. Serviced twice by Ford at 14k and 32k with semi-synthetic, then when I bought at 46k, then 54 and 57k and now again at 58. Luckily I stock up on Magnatec when its £18 from ECP. So quite long intervals between first services and with all the horror stories I decided I'd rather replace possibly OK parts than wait for it to go bang.

I found the banjo bolt filter was fine, the feed pipe was fine, as was the return, all completely normal. Ford have changed the design of the filter - original parts have the filter in the end of the bolt presenting a small surface area, the revised design has the filter inside the bolt so there's a bigger surface area, therefore less likely to block. So a bit of a waste of time and money but at least I know what's going on under the bonnet.

As for the sump, that was worthwhile. I decided not to bother removing the pickup pick and just fired a can of brake cleaner up through the mesh in the bottom. Each shot of cleaner caused a big load of black gloop to come out. The bottom of the sump holds about 1/4 litre of oil so it ends up contaminating any clean oil that gets put in. Dunno if anyone's had success using a vacuum drainer, the dipstick tube has a couple of kinks in so it might be tricky pushing a tube all the way to the bottom. I was glad I got it all cleaned out, and the oil is still coming up clean on the dipstick which makes a nice change from it turning straight to ink.

I'll stick a how-to guide in the Guides section if I get time, there were a few gotchas and the usual "why did I start this ****ing job"

moments so it might be helpful for someone.

So the conclusion.... don't believe all the scare stories about these being unreliable engines - unless your turbo has gone bang of course :-( there must be some factor that causes the carbonisation problems, either leaking injectors, blocked DPF, poor oil servicing or a combination of the above - or who knows. The question is how would you tell if you had an injector problem or a blocked DPF before the damage gets done? I dunno if there's something an owner can do to diagnose those faults, I guess the problem is hidden away until its too late.

[Oldbeforemytime]

Now Ive read that injectors leak ---> oil burns --> carbon build up and muck in breather pipe ---> expensive turbo failure which nobody wants to fix.

Hi d0gMa,

I've recently been through the turbo failure, the TSB from Ford supposedly says to replace the engine.

I had the garage replace the turbo then check the engine for damage. Admittedly it has cost me almost £1k on a 55 plate Ghia which ticked over 50k the day after I picked it up.

[dreadz]

i'm on 2nd replacement turbo. 1st replacment turbo lasted 2000 miles- had everything changed as per ford bulletin. all warrantied though -cost me £££ first time round. Garage said this time that was partially blocked filter in banjo bolt..everyhting else was ok. so he said should be ok after this- keep on top of oil changes..what i want to know is - the banjo bolt with filter- how easy and what cost is to replace everytime i get oil change? seems worthwhile doing in the future? is it time consuming just replacing that part? surely it should have been a serviced item??seeing as its easily blocked?

[grahamp]

I'm going to put a how-to in the guides section on replacing the banjo filter, but imo if its getting blocked that's a sign of a problem elsewhere.. you shouldn't have carbon in the oil to block the filter in the first place. If you change the filter there's a chance it could be blocked again with in a couple of thousand miles so I think its a bit pointless changing it as a service item. The new design of banjo filter is less likely to block than the original though.

Essentially all that has to happen on top of what you'd do for an oil change is detach the charged air cooler pipe and remove the cat section of exhaust to gain access. If your car has a DPF its more of a pain. I'll detail all that in the guides section when I get a chance, but once its off there's the banjo bolt, so I think a competent garage ought to be able to do a non DPF car within an hour.

[dreadz]

yeah mines dpf 110..garage said it was probably what was left in areas of engine they could not flush/ air blow down.. all pipes etc / fileters/sump etc were renewed so no issue there. although had injector 3 leaking pretty dam bad orginally- black carbon everywhere and had burny smell in cabin for approx 12 months..was well and trully caked! also sounded like a tractor with injector noise..

now virtually no noise from injectors on startup- prob for about 1-3 mins then silent - judt think i would raher pay the extra when changing oi/filter to do banjo filter at same time.. how much does the banjo filter retail at? car was prob serviced approx 9000-13000 miles each time...so now will be changed at 4000-6000 miles now!

may even get dpf removed if turbo holds up

looking forward to that how to guide...cheers

[grahamp]

Banjo bolt is £6.35+vat, you should change the 2 copper washers at the same time, a bit pricey at £4.60+vat for the 2.

I might get a guide up this evening if I've got time, after sanding & teak oiling the garden furniture :-/

[dreadz]

see for the cost, i would be lot happier knowing that its changed...justb the time to get to it is the concern...could bump up the cost of filter/oil change considerably..thanks for the info though. i;m sure citroien or peugeuot recommend that filter to be changed at service? but ford dont? cant find the info to back this up though?

[lottysvdub]

Dreadz Having been a Senior workshop technician for 2 Citroen workshops I can assure you they do not recommend changing the banjo bolt at all...... Unless your having a new turbo......Then 1/2 the time they don't bother to the frustration of the technicians....

To be honest PSA have tried to sweep this fault under the carpet on all cars out of warranty. They simply are not interested..... I worked in one dealer where a customer had a C4 1.6 hdi with the usual turbo failure at approx 50k.... The old customer was given a price to replace the engine or to strip down the old one and clean out as much as possible + new turbo.... He was talked in to trading it in against a C4 Picasso which was far to big for him to drive in my opinion....... His old car simply had a recon turbo fitted and an oil change and that was all..... Within 3 days it was on the forecourt for sale at twice the price he was given as a trade in.....

Ironically his C4 Picasso had a nice whistle on boost even before he took delivery of it..... He did ask but was told by the service manager it was perfectly normal for that model...... Even though it was the same engine and turbo as his old C4 car.

[dreadz]

ahh ok, thought i had seen that on a few forums had visited earlier in year.so is it worth doing as an extra service when oil changing or am i just wasting money?

[lottysvdub]

I would recommend changing it if you can of don't mind paying to get it done....

My wife's car is a 56 reg 1.6 tdci and has just done 75k and the oil a day filter have been changed every 5k from new..... But recently has developed a whistle on boost..... I'm not too worried at the moment as I've checked the turbo and it has the correct amount of play on the turbine..... I can find no leaks from pipes but have noticed a slight leak from the top of the cam cover when boosting..... You can feel the air pushing out of the end..... Not sure why as I've never come across this with Citroen... Even my local ford dealer where stumped when I asked them lol.

Car still runs like a dream with no power loss or smoke so at some point I will get hold of a new cam cover and try it.

[JeffFocus]

Hi Graham

Thanks for the update. I think even though you've spent money on parts you didn't need, the knowledge that everything is ok is worth far more.

Quick question which would probably be answered in your guide...

How difficult was it to get the sump off? When I changed the oil I noticed that the exhaust covers some of the nuts holding the sump on. I would love to do your brake cleaner trick and clean the gloop out of the bottom. I think mine has a DPF which no doubt adds to the entertainment

Will probably attempt what you did in the autumn. If you could get your guide on here, that would be awesome :)

Also on a side note, I'm thinking of doing all the servicing from now on. Do you have or can point me in the right direction where it details when the other serviceable items need to be replaced, such as air filters etc.

Thanks again

Jeff

[grahamp]

You can generate a service schedule at WWW.Etis.ford.com or the Haynes manual is pretty good, and of course this forum.

In terms of servicing yourself .. jacking / supporting is a bit sketchy, fuel system can be hard to prime, cabin filter is a bit of a pain, otherwise it's a very straightforward car .you might be able to get sump off without disturbing cat pipe but getting it on might be a pain.. it will have wet sealant, you'll need to get it over both bolt studs and there are a lot of bolts to torque up in 5 mins before sealant goes off. But it might be possible.

[grahamp]

In terms of difficulty removing sump I did find it tricky which was mainly down to the fact I'd never done one before and they stick like limpets. I needed both studs removed in order to free it, sump removal tool to break seal and pry bar to lever it off. When it popped off I realised its pretty easy, i was just worried about knackering something.

I had bigger probs getting it on.. I think there's a slight manufacturing fault with the stud hole on the gearbox side. oil can leak past the stud and Ford have a revised TSB for the sump where u go round both sides of the hole with sealant. I found the thread in the hole was slightly damaged, it was very tricky getting it started and when trying to torque to 12nm the end of the stud sheared off. A garage might use a tap on the bolt hole but a DIY guy without resources could be in trouble.

[JeffFocus]

So you think they'll be enough room to get to the sump nuts using say a ring spanner over the exhaust that covers them. Its just the actual separation and refitting that caused the issues?