Jump to content


Show
Photo

2.0 Tdci "surging"

rough running

  • Please log in to reply
19 replies to this topic

#1 muggo

muggo

    Member

  • Budding Enthusiast
  • PipPip
  • 19 posts
  • Name: Paul
  • Ford Model: Mondeo 130 TDCi Titanium X estate
  • Year: 2007
  • Location: Leicestershire

Posted 28 June 2013 - 05:33 PM

My 2007 TCDI 2.0 Mondeo has done 130,000 miles & generally runs without a problem.

However, on zero or a very light throttle it seems to surge ie seems to accelerate fractionally,then not, then on again etc.  Pehaps 2 or 3 seconds between on & off if you see what I mean.  It's just not as smooth as it used to be at very light throttle settings.

It won't be a blocked DPF as I regularly drive a decent distance at high speed.  I also take it to the red line (with a warm engine) every few weeks & get some smoke, which quickly clears.  I did these things before I noticed the surging issue.

Can anyone please give me some guidance here?

 

Thanks

Paul



Have something to contribute?

Sign in or register to start a topic...

Sign up to FOC Premium Membership To Remove These Ads

#2 FOCA

FOCA

    Feet on the table

  • True Ford Enthusiast
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,710 posts
  • Name: FOCA
  • Ford Model: Mondeo Mk3 Sleeper 194 flb.p.t.
  • Year: Non
  • Location: Scotland
Contributor

Posted 28 June 2013 - 07:45 PM

Is it a mk3 or mk4 Mondeo tdci? (presumably its a mk3 as it says "130")

 

Mk3 Mondeos do not have DPFs, (diesel particle filter) just a small, passive (non- electronic) catalytic converter

 

It could be a number of things, including transmission shunt caused by play in the DMF (dual mass flywheel) that can interact with the anti - stall, or it could be a "feedback loop" in the anti- stall - just use a bit more throttle,/ revs - it is not good for the engine/ trans/DMF to let the engine "labour" anyway

 

There are other things that can cause this, a good service can help,  and cleaning out the inlet manifold, and take it from there    



#3 muggo

muggo

    Member

  • Budding Enthusiast
  • PipPip
  • 19 posts
  • Name: Paul
  • Ford Model: Mondeo 130 TDCi Titanium X estate
  • Year: 2007
  • Location: Leicestershire

Posted 28 June 2013 - 08:16 PM

Is it a mk3 or mk4 Mondeo tdci? (presumably its a mk3 as it says "130")

 

Mk3 Mondeos do not have DPFs, (diesel particle filter) just a small, passive (non- electronic) catalytic converter

 

It could be a number of things, including transmission shunt caused by play in the DMF (dual mass flywheel) that can interact with the anti - stall, or it could be a "feedback loop" in the anti- stall - just use a bit more throttle,/ revs - it is not good for the engine/ trans/DMF to let the engine "labour" anyway

 

There are other things that can cause this, a good service can help,  and cleaning out the inlet manifold, and take it from there    

Thanks for the reply.

I believe it's a Mk3 (the one before the current model).  Glad to hear it doesn't have a DPF as they can be trouble.

I don't like the sound of the potential DMF issue.  It's an ex lease car so although the mileage is high, I think it has spent most of those miles in 6th gear on the motorway rather than stressing the DMF.

I should point out I never labour the engine - I get the new problem when driving on light or no throttle.  Revs are high enough for it not to be that that's causing the shunting.

I used to road test cars for a living so I'm quite in tune with what's happening, but shunting has only recently started.  I just wondered if it's a common problem that could be sorted by, say, adding injector cleaner to the fuel system.



#4 FOCA

FOCA

    Feet on the table

  • True Ford Enthusiast
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,710 posts
  • Name: FOCA
  • Ford Model: Mondeo Mk3 Sleeper 194 flb.p.t.
  • Year: Non
  • Location: Scotland
Contributor

Posted 29 June 2013 - 06:24 AM

Apart from the anti- stall, the ECU has "eco" / fuel saving strategies, including fuel cutoff on the over-run/ when the throttle is "off" or "low"

 

There can also be a delay due to turbo-lag, the EGR system can interfere with the combustion process, causing flat-spots, which may cause your "shunting"

 

 ,

 

You dont say when the car was last serviced, a fresh air filter can help, this can improve power before the turbo boosts, thus reducing lag - this alone could eliminate the problem

 

A frequent fuel filter change is a good idea for these engines - a genuine Ford or "quality" filter (eg - Bosch) is important - cheap pattern ones/ some other makes can cause problems

 

A frequent oil/ filter change is good preventative medicine (when the mk3 diesel was ist released, recommended oil changes were 5k, then 6, then 10 - its always been (basically) the same engine since 2000 to 2007) - again, genuine Ford or "quality" filters "cheap" filters can cause problems/ "quality" oil can help the engine run smoother, more economically, and last longer 

 

The EGR valve/ system contaminates the inlet manifold with carbon  this can also mix with the oily droplets from the breather, creating an oily "goo" which builds up over time and can "choke" the manifold- reducing the air going into the engine  - this needs to be cleaned out periodically - this should be part of the sevice schedule but is'nt - the inlet manifold should be taken off to clean it out, its a messy job  

 

Blanking the EGR (exhaust gas recirculation) valve with a solid stainless steel plate (about £5 online) will prevent this happening, the engine will also run better at part- throttle, (in the EGR "activation zone") because engines run better on clean air, than burnt exhaust gasses - as yours is a euro4 Mondeo - its likely your EML (engine management light) may come on when you blank your EGR, a code reader (approx £20 online) can reset this (some do this once a week)   

 

Injector cleaner will not make any difference to this problem, IMO, some injector cleaner/ "snake oil" contains parrafin, or other solvents which can cause problems (eg - melt seals) with continued use.  Some modern diesel fuels contain detergents,(Shell/ BP "super-dooper" fuel, whatever they are calling it this year) to help clean out the injectors - this is a safer option  

 

The mk3 (Mondeo diesel) was never designed for the low- sulphor/ 5-7% bio deisel dispensed from the pumps in 2013, the injectors may wear faster than they should, the delphi injectors are already "soft"  

 

The other thing (apart from the EGR valve/ system, already mentioned) that is soft is the DMF (dual mass flywheel) at 130K it may be on its 2nd or 3rdone, if not, 100k is about the limit on these things, - mine "went" about 100k, i "nursed" it for almost a year after that, then i fitted a solid flywheel, carbon fiber/ kevlar clutch, 30% stronger clamping force, heavy-duty re-enforced backplate, and sprung plate, its not to everyones taste - but i like it - the DMF will never fail again

 

I don't think its the DMF (wrong frequency) but it may be a contributing factor/ or may add to the problem    

 

Ive never used injector cleaner or expensive diesel (apart from once) i use the cheapest fuel i can find - supermarket pump diesel or veg oil - the TDDI can run on this .  It runs very smooth  and pulls from low revs - no driveline shunt or hesitation etc

 

The variable vane mech on the turbo can coke up over time - this can sieze, causing the actuator to fail  

 

Live data or a boost gauge could indicate if your problem is boost-related eg - "boost pumping" 



#5 muggo

muggo

    Member

  • Budding Enthusiast
  • PipPip
  • 19 posts
  • Name: Paul
  • Ford Model: Mondeo 130 TDCi Titanium X estate
  • Year: 2007
  • Location: Leicestershire

Posted 29 June 2013 - 11:56 AM

Thanks again for the comprehensive reply Feet On The Table.

I'll have a look at the air filter & get the fuel filter changed.  I do tend to run the fuel tank a bit low!

Cheers

Paul



#6 FOCA

FOCA

    Feet on the table

  • True Ford Enthusiast
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,710 posts
  • Name: FOCA
  • Ford Model: Mondeo Mk3 Sleeper 194 flb.p.t.
  • Year: Non
  • Location: Scotland
Contributor

Posted 29 June 2013 - 12:59 PM

Thanks again for the comprehensive reply Feet On The Table.

I'll have a look at the air filter & get the fuel filter changed.  I do tend to run the fuel tank a bit low!

Cheers

Paul

Funny you should say that! - apart from the "fuel head" being low with a potential reduction in fuel pressure the MK3s go into a "fuel saving mode" (set by the ECU) when the low fuel warning light comes on

 

"Feet on the table" is just a "status" thingy - the name is "FOCA"

 

Let us know how you get on    



#7 Stevolandy

Stevolandy

    Newbie

  • Budding Enthusiast
  • Pip
  • 8 posts
  • Name: Steve
  • Ford Model: Mondeo tdci estate
  • Year: 2005
  • Location: Lancashire

Posted 24 June 2014 - 03:39 PM

I've just had this very problem. Mine was also accompanied with a judder on over run around 2000-2250 rpm when I backed off gradually on the accelerator. From a stand still it looked like the end of the world in my rear view mirror because the smoke was getting gradually. I took the usual wishful thinking steps by servicing. Next step I took the egr valve off and then the inlet manifold and cleaned the inch thick layers of carbon off and put it all back together. Took it for a spin. Still the same. Only slightly less black smoke. By chance I checked the intercooler hoses and found a split. Not all the way through but being held together by the weave inside the hose. Replaced with a silicone one and took out for a spin. Power totally restored no smoke no surging no juddering on over run and more importantly. Mpg up from a terrible 44.2 to an impressive IMO 54.6 mpg. All for a 20 quid silicone hose from flee bay.

#8 Stevolandy

Stevolandy

    Newbie

  • Budding Enthusiast
  • Pip
  • 8 posts
  • Name: Steve
  • Ford Model: Mondeo tdci estate
  • Year: 2005
  • Location: Lancashire

Posted 24 June 2014 - 04:05 PM

Also I do tend to use a product called 10k boost it's a treatment sprayed directly into the turbo. Swear by it after using if on a lazy discovery. Expensive but worth if.

#9 jeebowhite

jeebowhite

    Resident Loon

  • Super Mod
  • 16,086 posts
  • Name: James
  • Ford Model: Sea Grey Mondeo MKIV 1.8TDCi 140ps Zetec
  • Year: 2007
  • Location: Kent
Contributor

Posted 24 June 2014 - 04:06 PM

the intercooler hoses are a nightmare! the rubber isnt very good quality and it can be so simple to cause it. I had the same issue but it was my actual pipe that split on the CMAX....



#10 Stevolandy

Stevolandy

    Newbie

  • Budding Enthusiast
  • Pip
  • 8 posts
  • Name: Steve
  • Ford Model: Mondeo tdci estate
  • Year: 2005
  • Location: Lancashire

Posted 25 June 2014 - 09:32 AM

I did think I'd be forking out on injectors the way it was running but it's absolutely spot on now. Normally goes the other way with me. Normally the expensive bits fail first for me ha ha. Read a few thinks about adding mineral 2 stroke to the diesel tank to keep the fuel pump and injectors in order. Some guy somewhere had taken it to another level with research and positive results so I'm currently running it in my tank. I'll let you know how that goes. Maybe good maybe not. Car is a little quieter from the start so far that's all I've noticed. I'm putting the lack of any smoke to the fine work I've done with the manifold and intercooler lol. But time will tell.


Sent from my iPhone using Ford OC

#11 jeebowhite

jeebowhite

    Resident Loon

  • Super Mod
  • 16,086 posts
  • Name: James
  • Ford Model: Sea Grey Mondeo MKIV 1.8TDCi 140ps Zetec
  • Year: 2007
  • Location: Kent
Contributor

Posted 25 June 2014 - 11:29 AM

I have been tempted to do this myself I must admit, so I look forward to your results!



#12 FOCA

FOCA

    Feet on the table

  • True Ford Enthusiast
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,710 posts
  • Name: FOCA
  • Ford Model: Mondeo Mk3 Sleeper 194 flb.p.t.
  • Year: Non
  • Location: Scotland
Contributor

Posted 25 June 2014 - 10:18 PM

Also I do tend to use a product called 10k boost it's a treatment sprayed directly into the turbo. Swear by it after using if on a lazy discovery. Expensive but worth if.

Which part of the turbo?



#13 Stevolandy

Stevolandy

    Newbie

  • Budding Enthusiast
  • Pip
  • 8 posts
  • Name: Steve
  • Ford Model: Mondeo tdci estate
  • Year: 2005
  • Location: Lancashire

Posted 25 June 2014 - 11:06 PM

Directly into the inlet for the turbo. Before maf sensor. Just de hunks everything and Teflon coats beArings from what I understand


Sent from my iPhone using Ford OC

#14 FOCA

FOCA

    Feet on the table

  • True Ford Enthusiast
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,710 posts
  • Name: FOCA
  • Ford Model: Mondeo Mk3 Sleeper 194 flb.p.t.
  • Year: Non
  • Location: Scotland
Contributor

Posted 25 June 2014 - 11:26 PM

Directly into the inlet for the turbo. Before maf sensor. Just de hunks everything and Teflon coats beArings from what I understand


Sent from my iPhone using Ford OC

Thats the compressor, the compressor tends to stay clean because only air runs through it- it is after the MAF sensor, not before, it cannot teflon coat the turbo bearing (s) because there is a seal on either end of the bearing, and because of this the bearing is not accessable from the turbo inlet/ turbine housing  

 

in other words its a total waste of time/ money, like most of those "miracle cures"  

 

The real problem area is the turbine and VNT mech that tends to get coked up and sticks,  it is very unlikely that stuff will go anywhere near the VNT mech/ turbine from there 

 

to get at the VNT mech you need to take the exhaust manifold off   



#15 Stevolandy

Stevolandy

    Newbie

  • Budding Enthusiast
  • Pip
  • 8 posts
  • Name: Steve
  • Ford Model: Mondeo tdci estate
  • Year: 2005
  • Location: Lancashire

Posted 26 June 2014 - 07:08 AM

It's not a waste of money if it works though is it ? I'm just telling you what the product claims to do. You spray it into the intake of the turbo. Withe the air intake off hose off so you don't damage the maf. After it breathed new life into my old disco I've used it since. You can dissect what you like mate from what I've written but I'm just stating the directions from the back of the can. it's a bit childish really if you want some recognition for being some great mechanic go work for Brabus or something . if you haven't used it you can't really comment on if it's a waste of anything.


Sent from my iPhone using Ford OC

Have something to contribute?

Sign in or register to start a topic...


Not what you're looking for?

Register now, we have a huge community of enthusiasts to answer any questions you might have



0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users