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muggo

2.0 Tdci "surging"

23 posts in this topic

My 2007 TCDI 2.0 Mondeo has done 130,000 miles & generally runs without a problem.

However, on zero or a very light throttle it seems to surge ie seems to accelerate fractionally,then not, then on again etc. Pehaps 2 or 3 seconds between on & off if you see what I mean. It's just not as smooth as it used to be at very light throttle settings.

It won't be a blocked DPF as I regularly drive a decent distance at high speed. I also take it to the red line (with a warm engine) every few weeks & get some smoke, which quickly clears. I did these things before I noticed the surging issue.

Can anyone please give me some guidance here?

Thanks

Paul

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Is it a mk3 or mk4 Mondeo tdci? (presumably its a mk3 as it says "130")

Mk3 Mondeos do not have DPFs, (diesel particle filter) just a small, passive (non- electronic) catalytic converter

It could be a number of things, including transmission shunt caused by play in the DMF (dual mass flywheel) that can interact with the anti - stall, or it could be a "feedback loop" in the anti- stall - just use a bit more throttle,/ revs - it is not good for the engine/ trans/DMF to let the engine "labour" anyway

There are other things that can cause this, a good service can help, and cleaning out the inlet manifold, and take it from there

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Is it a mk3 or mk4 Mondeo tdci? (presumably its a mk3 as it says "130")

Mk3 Mondeos do not have DPFs, (diesel particle filter) just a small, passive (non- electronic) catalytic converter

It could be a number of things, including transmission shunt caused by play in the DMF (dual mass flywheel) that can interact with the anti - stall, or it could be a "feedback loop" in the anti- stall - just use a bit more throttle,/ revs - it is not good for the engine/ trans/DMF to let the engine "labour" anyway

There are other things that can cause this, a good service can help, and cleaning out the inlet manifold, and take it from there

Thanks for the reply.

I believe it's a Mk3 (the one before the current model). Glad to hear it doesn't have a DPF as they can be trouble.

I don't like the sound of the potential DMF issue. It's an ex lease car so although the mileage is high, I think it has spent most of those miles in 6th gear on the motorway rather than stressing the DMF.

I should point out I never labour the engine - I get the new problem when driving on light or no throttle. Revs are high enough for it not to be that that's causing the shunting.

I used to road test cars for a living so I'm quite in tune with what's happening, but shunting has only recently started. I just wondered if it's a common problem that could be sorted by, say, adding injector cleaner to the fuel system.

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Apart from the anti- stall, the ECU has "eco" / fuel saving strategies, including fuel cutoff on the over-run/ when the throttle is "off" or "low"

There can also be a delay due to turbo-lag, the EGR system can interfere with the combustion process, causing flat-spots, which may cause your "shunting"

,

You dont say when the car was last serviced, a fresh air filter can help, this can improve power before the turbo boosts, thus reducing lag - this alone could eliminate the problem

A frequent fuel filter change is a good idea for these engines - a genuine Ford or "quality" filter (eg - Bosch) is important - cheap pattern ones/ some other makes can cause problems

A frequent oil/ filter change is good preventative medicine (when the mk3 diesel was ist released, recommended oil changes were 5k, then 6, then 10 - its always been (basically) the same engine since 2000 to 2007) - again, genuine Ford or "quality" filters "cheap" filters can cause problems/ "quality" oil can help the engine run smoother, more economically, and last longer

The EGR valve/ system contaminates the inlet manifold with carbon this can also mix with the oily droplets from the breather, creating an oily "goo" which builds up over time and can "choke" the manifold- reducing the air going into the engine - this needs to be cleaned out periodically - this should be part of the sevice schedule but is'nt - the inlet manifold should be taken off to clean it out, its a messy job

Blanking the EGR (exhaust gas recirculation) valve with a solid stainless steel plate (about £5 online) will prevent this happening, the engine will also run better at part- throttle, (in the EGR "activation zone") because engines run better on clean air, than burnt exhaust gasses - as yours is a euro4 Mondeo - its likely your EML (engine management light) may come on when you blank your EGR, a code reader (approx £20 online) can reset this (some do this once a week)

Injector cleaner will not make any difference to this problem, IMO, some injector cleaner/ "snake oil" contains parrafin, or other solvents which can cause problems (eg - melt seals) with continued use. Some modern diesel fuels contain detergents,(Shell/ BP "super-dooper" fuel, whatever they are calling it this year) to help clean out the injectors - this is a safer option

The mk3 (Mondeo diesel) was never designed for the low- sulphor/ 5-7% bio deisel dispensed from the pumps in 2013, the injectors may wear faster than they should, the delphi injectors are already "soft"

The other thing (apart from the EGR valve/ system, already mentioned) that is soft is the DMF (dual mass flywheel) at 130K it may be on its 2nd or 3rdone, if not, 100k is about the limit on these things, - mine "went" about 100k, i "nursed" it for almost a year after that, then i fitted a solid flywheel, carbon fiber/ kevlar clutch, 30% stronger clamping force, heavy-duty re-enforced backplate, and sprung plate, its not to everyones taste - but i like it - the DMF will never fail again

I don't think its the DMF (wrong frequency) but it may be a contributing factor/ or may add to the problem

Ive never used injector cleaner or expensive diesel (apart from once) i use the cheapest fuel i can find - supermarket pump diesel or veg oil - the TDDI can run on this . It runs very smooth and pulls from low revs - no driveline shunt or hesitation etc

The variable vane mech on the turbo can coke up over time - this can sieze, causing the actuator to fail

Live data or a boost gauge could indicate if your problem is boost-related eg - "boost pumping"

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Thanks again for the comprehensive reply Feet On The Table.

I'll have a look at the air filter & get the fuel filter changed. I do tend to run the fuel tank a bit low!

Cheers

Paul

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Thanks again for the comprehensive reply Feet On The Table.

I'll have a look at the air filter & get the fuel filter changed. I do tend to run the fuel tank a bit low!

Cheers

Paul

Funny you should say that! - apart from the "fuel head" being low with a potential reduction in fuel pressure the MK3s go into a "fuel saving mode" (set by the ECU) when the low fuel warning light comes on

"Feet on the table" is just a "status" thingy - the name is "FOCA"

Let us know how you get on

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I've just had this very problem. Mine was also accompanied with a judder on over run around 2000-2250 rpm when I backed off gradually on the accelerator. From a stand still it looked like the end of the world in my rear view mirror because the smoke was getting gradually. I took the usual wishful thinking steps by servicing. Next step I took the egr valve off and then the inlet manifold and cleaned the inch thick layers of carbon off and put it all back together. Took it for a spin. Still the same. Only slightly less black smoke. By chance I checked the intercooler hoses and found a split. Not all the way through but being held together by the weave inside the hose. Replaced with a silicone one and took out for a spin. Power totally restored no smoke no surging no juddering on over run and more importantly. Mpg up from a terrible 44.2 to an impressive IMO 54.6 mpg. All for a 20 quid silicone hose from flee bay.

anniemation001 likes this

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Also I do tend to use a product called 10k boost it's a treatment sprayed directly into the turbo. Swear by it after using if on a lazy discovery. Expensive but worth if.

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the intercooler hoses are a nightmare! the rubber isnt very good quality and it can be so simple to cause it. I had the same issue but it was my actual pipe that split on the CMAX....

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I did think I'd be forking out on injectors the way it was running but it's absolutely spot on now. Normally goes the other way with me. Normally the expensive bits fail first for me ha ha. Read a few thinks about adding mineral 2 stroke to the diesel tank to keep the fuel pump and injectors in order. Some guy somewhere had taken it to another level with research and positive results so I'm currently running it in my tank. I'll let you know how that goes. Maybe good maybe not. Car is a little quieter from the start so far that's all I've noticed. I'm putting the lack of any smoke to the fine work I've done with the manifold and intercooler lol. But time will tell.

Sent from my iPhone using Ford OC

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I have been tempted to do this myself I must admit, so I look forward to your results!

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Also I do tend to use a product called 10k boost it's a treatment sprayed directly into the turbo. Swear by it after using if on a lazy discovery. Expensive but worth if.

Which part of the turbo?

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Directly into the inlet for the turbo. Before maf sensor. Just de hunks everything and Teflon coats beArings from what I understand

Sent from my iPhone using Ford OC

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Directly into the inlet for the turbo. Before maf sensor. Just de hunks everything and Teflon coats beArings from what I understand

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Thats the compressor, the compressor tends to stay clean because only air runs through it- it is after the MAF sensor, not before, it cannot teflon coat the turbo bearing (s) because there is a seal on either end of the bearing, and because of this the bearing is not accessable from the turbo inlet/ turbine housing

in other words its a total waste of time/ money, like most of those "miracle cures"

The real problem area is the turbine and VNT mech that tends to get coked up and sticks, it is very unlikely that stuff will go anywhere near the VNT mech/ turbine from there

to get at the VNT mech you need to take the exhaust manifold off

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It's not a waste of money if it works though is it ? I'm just telling you what the product claims to do. You spray it into the intake of the turbo. Withe the air intake off hose off so you don't damage the maf. After it breathed new life into my old disco I've used it since. You can dissect what you like mate from what I've written but I'm just stating the directions from the back of the can. it's a bit childish really if you want some recognition for being some great mechanic go work for Brabus or something . if you haven't used it you can't really comment on if it's a waste of anything.

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I've just had this very problem. Mine was also accompanied with a judder on over run around 2000-2250 rpm when I backed off gradually on the accelerator. From a stand still it looked like the end of the world in my rear view mirror because the smoke was getting gradually. I took the usual wishful thinking steps by servicing. Next step I took the egr valve off and then the inlet manifold and cleaned the inch thick layers of carbon off and put it all back together. Took it for a spin. Still the same. Only slightly less black smoke. By chance I checked the intercooler hoses and found a split. Not all the way through but being held together by the weave inside the hose. Replaced with a silicone one and took out for a spin. Power totally restored no smoke no surging no juddering on over run and more importantly. Mpg up from a terrible 44.2 to an impressive IMO 54.6 mpg. All for a 20 quid silicone hose from flee bay.

Thanks for all your help & advice Stevo.

I have a Haynes manual so I'll find out where the intercooler hoses are & check them out. I get 46-48mpg usually so I'd appreciate an increase to 54mpg.

Cheers

Paul

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It's not a waste of money if it works though is it ? I'm just telling you what the product claims to do. You spray it into the intake of the turbo. Withe the air intake off hose off so you don't damage the maf. After it breathed new life into my old disco I've used it since. You can dissect what you like mate from what I've written but I'm just stating the directions from the back of the can. it's a bit childish really if you want some recognition for being some great mechanic go work for Brabus or something . if you haven't used it you can't really comment on if it's a waste of anything.

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Those are not very nice comments and i feel they are a bit personal, if you post on a forum you can expect comments, some may not be positive, if i was in search of recognition i would not be anonymouse, its not my fault you don't understand engines, or what the different parts of the turbo are called, or that i know that something can't work in the way you described

There is simply no way a treatment that is sprayed into the turbo inlet (that bit is called the compressor housing) can get anywhere near the turbo bearing, (or "Teflon coat the beArings") period.

Ive been around a while and know my stuff, there have been a lot of "magic cures" for sale that make claims that the product can do this and that, mostly, its exaggerated or in some cases, even damage the engine - some have dissapeared or have changed the formula or have been forced to change their advertising - they are often a waste of money

yes, i have not used it - i would not put it near my car

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Maybe you should try being constructive then??? Instead of trying to massage your ego by sifting through posts for things that arent to your exacting standards. I would imagine It's pretty easy to sit at a keyboard trying to make people feel small whilst you sit their marvelling at your own superiority but I think you'll probably find that most people understood what was a brief afterthought of a post. I'm sure many mechanics also probably just call it an intake regardless of its component specific part description. The fact that you bothered to pick up on that shows just how important it is for you to make yourself seem superior rather than just being helpful. Lastly whilst I may not be a qualified mechanic you don't have any authority nor any basis to judge what my level of understanding of engines is. I don't require your appraisal for anything regardless of how long you've been about.

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Gentlemen! lets not allow this to to turn into a flame war.

Having know FOCA from when he started posting here, I can say that he has an excellent knowledge of cars, but his comments and writing style can be interpreted and read in a way that (much like reading any public forum content) can be read in a variety of ways, but lets not persue this point any further!

With regards to the underlying comments FOCA is making, the point he makes is valid. The nature and design of the turbo is a complicated one, and many miracle cures such as these claim that they could work there way in there and fix an issue. However, this isnt always accurate. Its like saying you have all your windows and doors in the car closed, and by washing the outside of the car you are also miraculously cleaning the interior also. The seals around such units and the buildup of the turbo means that much like your car door seals, if the seal isnt correct then yes - when you soak the car, some may get through the seal and lubricate the interior, but as these units are built - there is no way for you to spray the car on the outside in its sealed state and have the inside cleaned and lubricated.

The turbo would need to be reconditioned to get the best out of it, the compressor and its fins can be cleaned by the spray, but this doesnt perform an overly great function. What you need to do is get at the likes of the VNT vanes and de-coke them in order to get the air flowing smoothly over them once again. What FOCA seems to be seeing is that just because you squirt the cleaner in the compressor, doesnt mean that it will get in, clean the system and lubricate all the essential and sealed parts - in essence a spray isnt going to make it new. However, these treatments can benefit the car - not necessarily to the full extent and degree of say having it removed and reconditioned, but if it decokes a little bit of the turbo and makes that 1% run better, then you are already looking at a 1% improvement than where you previously sat.

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it could be the dual mass flywheel because my mondeo does the same when on idle.

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Hi, I came across this thread as my 2006 TDCI 130 has this surging issue. Seems to be fine when accelerating and even on dead throttle but on neutral throttle or very light throttle I get the surging. I just wondered if you'd ever got to the root of this issue on your car Muggo?

I'm going to inspect the intercooler hose tmw after seeing some of the other comments on this thead.

Thanks all!

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Hi, I came across this thread as my 2006 TDCI 130 has this surging issue. Seems to be fine when accelerating and even on dead throttle but on neutral throttle or very light throttle I get the surging. I just wondered if you'd ever got to the root of this issue on your car Muggo?

I'm going to inspect the intercooler hose tmw after seeing some of the other comments on this thead.

Thanks all!

It was a split intercooler hose in the end. I replaced it with a non genuine rubber one 10,000 miles ago & it cured it. However, I now have the same problem so i suspect it has split again. If so, I'll try a silicone version as it's a very low mileage for it to happen again.

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On 24/06/2014 at 5:29 PM, Stevolandy said:

I've just had this very problem. Mine was also accompanied with a judder on over run around 2000-2250 rpm when I backed off gradually on the accelerator. From a stand still it looked like the end of the world in my rear view mirror because the smoke was getting gradually. I took the usual wishful thinking steps by servicing. Next step I took the egr valve off and then the inlet manifold and cleaned the inch thick layers of carbon off and put it all back together. Took it for a spin. Still the same. Only slightly less black smoke. By chance I checked the intercooler hoses and found a split. Not all the way through but being held together by the weave inside the hose. Replaced with a silicone one and took out for a spin. Power totally restored no smoke no surging no juddering on over run and more importantly. Mpg up from a terrible 44.2 to an impressive IMO 54.6 mpg. All for a 20 quid silicone hose from flee bay.

 

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