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2.0 Tdci "surging"

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#1 muggo

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Posted 28 June 2013 - 05:33 PM

My 2007 TCDI 2.0 Mondeo has done 130,000 miles & generally runs without a problem.

However, on zero or a very light throttle it seems to surge ie seems to accelerate fractionally,then not, then on again etc.  Pehaps 2 or 3 seconds between on & off if you see what I mean.  It's just not as smooth as it used to be at very light throttle settings.

It won't be a blocked DPF as I regularly drive a decent distance at high speed.  I also take it to the red line (with a warm engine) every few weeks & get some smoke, which quickly clears.  I did these things before I noticed the surging issue.

Can anyone please give me some guidance here?

 

Thanks

Paul



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#2 FOCA

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Posted 28 June 2013 - 07:45 PM

Is it a mk3 or mk4 Mondeo tdci? (presumably its a mk3 as it says "130")

 

Mk3 Mondeos do not have DPFs, (diesel particle filter) just a small, passive (non- electronic) catalytic converter

 

It could be a number of things, including transmission shunt caused by play in the DMF (dual mass flywheel) that can interact with the anti - stall, or it could be a "feedback loop" in the anti- stall - just use a bit more throttle,/ revs - it is not good for the engine/ trans/DMF to let the engine "labour" anyway

 

There are other things that can cause this, a good service can help,  and cleaning out the inlet manifold, and take it from there    



#3 muggo

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Posted 28 June 2013 - 08:16 PM

Is it a mk3 or mk4 Mondeo tdci? (presumably its a mk3 as it says "130")

 

Mk3 Mondeos do not have DPFs, (diesel particle filter) just a small, passive (non- electronic) catalytic converter

 

It could be a number of things, including transmission shunt caused by play in the DMF (dual mass flywheel) that can interact with the anti - stall, or it could be a "feedback loop" in the anti- stall - just use a bit more throttle,/ revs - it is not good for the engine/ trans/DMF to let the engine "labour" anyway

 

There are other things that can cause this, a good service can help,  and cleaning out the inlet manifold, and take it from there    

Thanks for the reply.

I believe it's a Mk3 (the one before the current model).  Glad to hear it doesn't have a DPF as they can be trouble.

I don't like the sound of the potential DMF issue.  It's an ex lease car so although the mileage is high, I think it has spent most of those miles in 6th gear on the motorway rather than stressing the DMF.

I should point out I never labour the engine - I get the new problem when driving on light or no throttle.  Revs are high enough for it not to be that that's causing the shunting.

I used to road test cars for a living so I'm quite in tune with what's happening, but shunting has only recently started.  I just wondered if it's a common problem that could be sorted by, say, adding injector cleaner to the fuel system.



#4 FOCA

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Posted 29 June 2013 - 06:24 AM

Apart from the anti- stall, the ECU has "eco" / fuel saving strategies, including fuel cutoff on the over-run/ when the throttle is "off" or "low"

 

There can also be a delay due to turbo-lag, the EGR system can interfere with the combustion process, causing flat-spots, which may cause your "shunting"

 

 ,

 

You dont say when the car was last serviced, a fresh air filter can help, this can improve power before the turbo boosts, thus reducing lag - this alone could eliminate the problem

 

A frequent fuel filter change is a good idea for these engines - a genuine Ford or "quality" filter (eg - Bosch) is important - cheap pattern ones/ some other makes can cause problems

 

A frequent oil/ filter change is good preventative medicine (when the mk3 diesel was ist released, recommended oil changes were 5k, then 6, then 10 - its always been (basically) the same engine since 2000 to 2007) - again, genuine Ford or "quality" filters "cheap" filters can cause problems/ "quality" oil can help the engine run smoother, more economically, and last longer 

 

The EGR valve/ system contaminates the inlet manifold with carbon  this can also mix with the oily droplets from the breather, creating an oily "goo" which builds up over time and can "choke" the manifold- reducing the air going into the engine  - this needs to be cleaned out periodically - this should be part of the sevice schedule but is'nt - the inlet manifold should be taken off to clean it out, its a messy job  

 

Blanking the EGR (exhaust gas recirculation) valve with a solid stainless steel plate (about £5 online) will prevent this happening, the engine will also run better at part- throttle, (in the EGR "activation zone") because engines run better on clean air, than burnt exhaust gasses - as yours is a euro4 Mondeo - its likely your EML (engine management light) may come on when you blank your EGR, a code reader (approx £20 online) can reset this (some do this once a week)   

 

Injector cleaner will not make any difference to this problem, IMO, some injector cleaner/ "snake oil" contains parrafin, or other solvents which can cause problems (eg - melt seals) with continued use.  Some modern diesel fuels contain detergents,(Shell/ BP "super-dooper" fuel, whatever they are calling it this year) to help clean out the injectors - this is a safer option  

 

The mk3 (Mondeo diesel) was never designed for the low- sulphor/ 5-7% bio deisel dispensed from the pumps in 2013, the injectors may wear faster than they should, the delphi injectors are already "soft"  

 

The other thing (apart from the EGR valve/ system, already mentioned) that is soft is the DMF (dual mass flywheel) at 130K it may be on its 2nd or 3rdone, if not, 100k is about the limit on these things, - mine "went" about 100k, i "nursed" it for almost a year after that, then i fitted a solid flywheel, carbon fiber/ kevlar clutch, 30% stronger clamping force, heavy-duty re-enforced backplate, and sprung plate, its not to everyones taste - but i like it - the DMF will never fail again

 

I don't think its the DMF (wrong frequency) but it may be a contributing factor/ or may add to the problem    

 

Ive never used injector cleaner or expensive diesel (apart from once) i use the cheapest fuel i can find - supermarket pump diesel or veg oil - the TDDI can run on this .  It runs very smooth  and pulls from low revs - no driveline shunt or hesitation etc

 

The variable vane mech on the turbo can coke up over time - this can sieze, causing the actuator to fail  

 

Live data or a boost gauge could indicate if your problem is boost-related eg - "boost pumping" 



#5 muggo

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Posted 29 June 2013 - 11:56 AM

Thanks again for the comprehensive reply Feet On The Table.

I'll have a look at the air filter & get the fuel filter changed.  I do tend to run the fuel tank a bit low!

Cheers

Paul



#6 FOCA

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Posted 29 June 2013 - 12:59 PM

Thanks again for the comprehensive reply Feet On The Table.

I'll have a look at the air filter & get the fuel filter changed.  I do tend to run the fuel tank a bit low!

Cheers

Paul

Funny you should say that! - apart from the "fuel head" being low with a potential reduction in fuel pressure the MK3s go into a "fuel saving mode" (set by the ECU) when the low fuel warning light comes on

 

"Feet on the table" is just a "status" thingy - the name is "FOCA"

 

Let us know how you get on    



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