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2.0 Tddi Running Rough


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#1 gixer103

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Posted 03 August 2013 - 12:45 PM

Hi All,

      I have a 2.0TDDI 51plate estate 165,000 miles,

 I had the EGR -manifold pipe blow (90 deg rubber) at the front of the engine so I replaced it with a silicone one,

      once fitted the car starts & runs all ok, But after you have travelled around 4 miles its starts to run

really rough with white smoke just as though the pipe has gone again but all is ok with it,

I have removed all the pipe work & cleaned then all out inc the manifold & EGR valve,

once the car has cooled down it runs & starts all ok,

does any one have any ideas

                        

                                         Many thanks in advance Keith



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#2 stooge75

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Posted 03 August 2013 - 08:43 PM

Have you had it plugged in to see what fuel pressure etc is normal? Beginning of pump failure maybe?Injectors?

#3 FOCA

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Posted 04 August 2013 - 07:08 AM

Hi All,

      I have a 2.0TDDI 51plate estate 165,000 miles,

 I had the EGR -manifold pipe blow (90 deg rubber) at the front of the engine so I replaced it with a silicone one,

      once fitted the car starts & runs all ok, But after you have travelled around 4 miles its starts to run

really rough with white smoke just as though the pipe has gone again but all is ok with it,

I have removed all the pipe work & cleaned then all out inc the manifold & EGR valve,

once the car has cooled down it runs & starts all ok,

does any one have any ideas

                        

                                         Many thanks in advance Keith

It could be many things and you have to eliminate/ track down the cause -

 

 The EGR has a cooler (it comes off the 2nd cylinder from the left, on the exhaust manifold) it can split causing these symptoms  

 

A solid blanking plate could be fitted right on the exhaust manifold (effectively disabling the EGR cooler) and another soild plate on the EGR valve 

 

This will eliminate the EGR cooler as the potential cause of the problem and help the performance, economy and reliability of the car  

 

The EGR components can also be completely removed, the car runs better like this - as its a Euro3 the EML (engine management light) does not come on if the EGR is blanked, so this can be done no problem

 

The TDDI is moch tougher/ more reliable than the TDCI, The TDDI has Bosch mechanical injectors that do not suffer the problems that the Delphi injectors have on the TDCI, the TDDI has been known to go to 330+ miles  

 

Keep an eye on the fluid levels and see if you are losing any coolant (is it low/ does it go down slowly?) - if you need to top it up keep the right strength of the correct anti-freeze, - if you top it up with water it may be ok in the summer but the diluted solution could cause problems when the winter comes 

 

Some of these faults do not show up on OBD codes, and if you take it to a garage/ mechanic/ diesel specalist can leave them "scratching their heads" as they often have an "injector" mentality and don't mind spending your money, and i have heard "horror stories" of perfecty servicable injectors being replaced at great expense when the fault was something cheaper/ simpler

 

The solid blanking plates cost about £5 each,

 

its also worth doing the "service" items 1ST (because these need done anyway/ don't cost the earth and a blocked filter etc could potentially be the source of a problem) like the oil/ filter and the air filter and fuel filter (i just use the cheapest pattern air filter i can find, and change it every 6months/ 6k, when i do the oil) - its best to use genuine or "premium" oil and fuel filters

 

You can get your own code reader, the TDDI is OBD1 (not OBD11) so some readers do not work on it, - F-super (about £20) has been found to work

 

Let us know how you get on



#4 gixer103

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Posted 04 August 2013 - 09:57 AM

FOCA
       What blanking plate do you use for the cooler is it the same as the EGR,
The problem only arised since the pipe split
All service items are all ok as only done around 4000 miles age
I have bought the blanking plate (alloy) from Ebay just waiting for it to arrive
 
 Keith

#5 FOCA

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Posted 04 August 2013 - 11:23 AM

FOCA
       What blanking plate do you use for the cooler is it the same as the EGR,
The problem only arised since the pipe split
All service items are all ok as only done around 4000 miles age
I have bought the blanking plate (alloy) from Ebay just waiting for it to arrive
 
 Keith

If you just stick the blanking plate in front of the EGR valve it should be ok - if the smoke is because of a leaky EGR valve - this might cure it

 

You cannot fit an aluminium/ alloy plate to the exhaust manifold - it would melt - that is why i recommend stainless steel plates - just in case the aluminium melts - the hot exhaust gasses have to go through the cooler then the valve- the valve can act as a heat shield (especially if it is disabled) so the aluminium one should be ok after the EGR  

 

The ones with the holes in them to let the gasses through are a waste of time

 

I had to have a special blanking plate fabricated out of solid 8mm stainless steel, - the 8mm is "overkill" and 5 or 6mm is thick enough,

 

I bought a few plates and found they did not fit well - eg the holes were too big and the plate could "move around" before the nuts/ bolts were tightened

 

I have a loose manifold im working on and i could give you the sizes

 

there is another hose at the bottom that is prone to splitting - worth checking

 

is your coolant level ok? / staying at the same level?

 

is it a rear mounted EGR? some pictures with the engine cover off would be useful    



#6 gixer103

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Posted 04 August 2013 - 12:38 PM

Yes its a rear mounted EGR



#7 gixer103

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Posted 04 August 2013 - 01:02 PM

3ljk.jpg     upn2.jpg



#8 gixer103

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Posted 05 August 2013 - 02:46 PM

FOCA

 

    Well I have blanked off the EGR valve ( made a makeshift plate) Checked all the hoses marked on photo below & coolant is all ok

any more ideas as I am about to set fire to the dam thing lol,,

 

                      Keith

93zk.jpg



#9 stooge75

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Posted 05 August 2013 - 03:13 PM

Is your plate stainless steel?

#10 gixer103

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Posted 05 August 2013 - 03:20 PM

The one I have ordered is alloy as could not find a SS one,

the one I made as a temp to see if it worked was normal steel about 2.5 mm thick,



#11 FOCA

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Posted 05 August 2013 - 04:32 PM

The other hose that splits is the one in-between the solid plastic "transfer" pipe (that runs alongside the bottom of the radiator) and the metal pipe on the engine (number 3 in the diagram)

 

The relative movement of the engine and chassis and the oil from the breather breaking it down eventually causes a split - splits can be hard to spot without taking the hoses off

 

From the pictures you have a TDDI with a rear EGR and a fixed- vane turbo (pnumatic actuator)

 

The good news is there is no seepage around the injectors - they look dry - the top heatshield is missing from the exaust manifold/ turbo - did you take it off for photos or is it missing? - if it is missing it could be that the turbo/ manifold was changed at some point - there is a dark stain around the compressor inlet - could be from oil or heat discoloration (or both)

 

Its always difficult diagnoseing problems at a distance - if i could see, hear, touch and smell the car it would be a lot easier -

 

You say you have white smoke - it could be diesel - overfuelled due to loss of boost or a fault in the injection system- this would normally be described as black smoke though.   It could be oil -  due to worn valve guides/ seals or turbo seals/ head gasket. Or it could be water - from a blown head gasket, or the EGR cooler

 

The head gasket on a Mk3 diesel is quite tough and does not blow easily

 

The coolant flows through the EGR cooler, it can develop a split that can leak a little water/ coolant into the exhaust manifold which turns to steam, - it could seal when cold then leak when warm (due to the expansion of metal when hot) it can only be a tiny bit of water to cause a problem

The split could potentially pressurize the coolant system, causing more leaks

 

Check for play in your turbo shaft, if it gets bad, oil can spill out of the seal, this goes into the inlet and right through the engine, out the exhaust - oil can also get in through the engine breather - a little is normal and can build up - so your hoses may be coated in oil from just the breather

 

An experienced  mechanic learns to recognise the smell of burn oil, diesel etc so can often diagnose problems just from the color/ smell from the exhaust - or the sound of the engine etc

 

If you think like a mechanic and check through everything one at a time you should eventually eliminate the problem

 

You probably dont want to spend any money but a boost gauge can be picked up for about £30 online and can be very useful for diagnosing bost/ turbo problems (you would know if you developed a leak in the hoses or the turbo is not producing th boost it should)- a 25 or 30psi mechanical one would be fine

 

At the moment all you know for sure is the egr valve was not leaking       



#12 gixer103

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Posted 05 August 2013 - 06:19 PM

Hi,
   Re-checked the hose marked as No3 all ok,
 Turbo is all ok no play , turbo cover was removed by me
The whiteish smoke smells of fuel so not steam or oil smoke.
My brother in law recons injector or pump but it only started since the pipe arrowed split??



#13 stooge75

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Posted 05 August 2013 - 08:14 PM

The one I have ordered is alloy as could not find a SS one,
the one I made as a temp to see if it worked was normal steel about 2.5 mm thick,

Mate I'd take that blanking plate off & forget the alloy 1.
Make sure its stainless-steel. Too many folk finding that the gasses just burn a hole right thru it in no time. Upto you tho. If you know for a fact its a really hard steel then you're maybe ok,but is it worth the gamble.

#14 gixer103

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Posted 06 August 2013 - 02:47 PM

Foca

Well I have rechecked every thing again & again,

 took it for a test drive & it drives great up until the temp gauge reaches half way then when you put your foot down it starts to judder

& miss if you continue to drive it will then start to smoke & judder even worse it will eventually stop & not restart for at least half hour until it has cooled down,

Also when you fit the blanking plate do you leave the EGR plugged in

it is doing my head in now



#15 mintalkin

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Posted 06 August 2013 - 03:16 PM

cutting out when hot and not restarting until cool is usually a sign of a faulty lift pump on the TDDI



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