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#1 pullark

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Posted 24 August 2013 - 02:04 AM

Hi All,

I have a starting problem with my 2001 Ka (1.3 Endura engine). I'm hoping there's a diagnostics guru out there who can point me in the right direction.

Symptoms

When I turn on the car it will fire up for a few seconds and then die. Does not respond to throttle. Sounds like it's running on all cylinders. If I try again it will not fire.

What I've done so far

New fuel filter, new air filter. New spark plugs. Checked ICV looks OK. All hoses on manifold in good apparent condition.

Have also checked for fault codes with scanner. No faults showing. Engine light not on. When I scroll through MIL Menu it says O2S and HO2S "not ready". Is this abnormal?

It seems to me there is some kind of fuelling problem but where to start?

Hope someone can give me a lead to next steps.

Cheers

 

 



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#2 wase16ll

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Posted 24 August 2013 - 02:24 AM

try starting it, let it die..then remove fuse  for fuel pump and turn engine over..it might start, might not...give it a few turns then refit fuse and try again...see what happens

 

the o2 not ready is expected...engine needs to be running and warm before they come into play



#3 pullark

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Posted 24 August 2013 - 06:30 AM

Hi Tony,

Thanks for your advice. I tried what you suggested and I found that with the fuse removed the motor did run for a few more seconds after a couple of turnovers but then died. I then replaced the fuse and it wouldn't start. Sounds really close and some smoke coming out of the exhaust but the little furker won't go. Still stumped I'm afraid.



#4 wase16ll

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Posted 24 August 2013 - 09:31 AM

the test suggests the car is overfueling, which is why it ran briefly when pump fuse was removed.

 

most common reason when this happens is the map sensor but there are other possible causes.

there are tests you can do if you possess a volt meter, ill try and dig out the details a bit later, as i have to go to work now..

 

meantime, repeat the earlier test, only this time, try and replace the fuse whilst engine is running, it may take a lot of pedal work to keep it going, wouldnt be suprised if it throws out black smoke from exhaust if you manage to keep it going...what you want to try and achieve is to see if you can get it to run through the rough spot and settle back to normal after few minutes or if it continue to runs rough..

one other way which may work (instead of playing about with fuse) is to keep gas pedal to floor whilst starting as this in effect cuts the fuel..same principle as starting flooded engines in the older carb engine....doesnt always work though

 

if engine smooths out after few minutes, then could be down to

coolant temp sensor

if it settles down but has rough or no idle...could be

throttle position sensor

if it continues to run rough, difficult to keep running, throwing out black smoke...then could be

map sensor

 

one other check, remove the rubber hose from map sensor and check it for blockage/oil in pipe,

 

hope that makes sense..when i get back from work ill sort out some voltage tests you can do...also could you let me know if you have access to just a code reader or a scanner



#5 pullark

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Posted 25 August 2013 - 02:07 AM

Hi Tony,

Tried what you suggested. No change really. It is just on the verge of starting but does seem to be over-fuelling as you suggest. Sounds slightly healthier with foot flat on the pedal. I took out MAP sensor and it was clean but I guess it's impossible to tell if it is OK with only visual inspection . There is no hose attached to it, just a 4 pin electrical connector. How can I test it? If it had failed would there not be a fault code showing? I have a Memoscan U480 fault code reader. I don't think this is a high tech device but it does recognize correct protocol for this car's ECU. Cost $35 on Ebay.



#6 wase16ll

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Posted 25 August 2013 - 09:12 PM

sorry, re the map sensor, i was thinking it was the older type...map sensors on your model can only really be tested with a scanner with live data, or an oscilloscope...although still possibly at fault, not as common as the earlier type with the hose.

 

would be handy to have the engine code, which would be stamped on the right/front  side of engine as you look at it from the front,  just below the cylinder head....probably starts with a J

 

couple of tests you can do with a voltmeter

 

coolant temp sensor.

should be a 2 wire sensor, cant be specific about which wire is which, but easy enough to test.

with ignition on, engine cold, sensor plug connected

1 wire should be 0v, other should be approx 3.5v....any strong variation from that could point to a problem...the sensor voltage should gradually decrease as engine gets warmer,

if you can test it, let me know what reading you are getting

 

throttle position sensor

should be a 4 wire sensor, again, cant be specific about which wire etc

ignition on, sensor plug connected, engine temp irrelevent

1 wire should read 5v

2 wire should read 0v

3 wire should read approx 1v with throttle closed, approx 5v when throttle fully open [this maybe vise-versa)...as you gradually open throttle from closed to fully open, the voltage should rise ([or fall) gradually and smoothly without any jump to 0 or 5v in between....let me know the readings you get

4 wire, i believe, is the in built air temp sensor, hard to be specific with this, but air temp (within the manifold) at about 10 deg should read approx 3.5v..warmer the air, lower the voltage

 

with regards not setting a code if faulty

as an eg...the coolant sensor...if sensor fails it still might give a voltage within its parameters...lets say its supposed to read 1v when cold and 4v when hot...well it might read 3v when cold...makes engine difficult to start but wont log a code as the voltage is still within its expected range...think that makes sense...same could be said for a number of sensors

 

 

your problem could also be injector leakage, or pressure regulator problem...if you kitted up/confident in having a go, can give tips on how to test those

hope this helps



#7 pullark

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Posted 27 August 2013 - 05:35 AM

Thanks again Tony for your extensive advice on troubleshooting. I'm sure this information will be valuable to others on this forum in the future. It will be a couple of days before I can get to the car to do the latest battery of tests. Have a couple of questions arising from your last message.

You say tests on sensors should be carried out with plugs connected which makes sense. Does this mean I need pierce the wire to get a reading or can I somehow get in the back of the plug connector? Don't want to damage anything in the process.

I see when reading various posts that coil pack seems to be a frequent problem. Is it possible that the coil pack is breaking down after initially getting power to the plugs? Looks like a betch to get at, maybe need to jack the car up and get at it from underneath?

Cheers

Kevin



#8 wase16ll

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Posted 27 August 2013 - 09:33 AM

its possible to access through back of plugs, best to use thin needles/pins to do this unless voltmeter probes are small enough to access without damage...if necessary, you can probe the wire if you have a very thin pin/needle, such as used in accupuncture...but bare in mind if you do to either tape or silicone over the point you pierce.

 

i didnt include the coil pack as you suggested it runs on all 4 cyls when it starts..that would be unusual for a faulty coil.

 

having said that, it may pay to test for a good spark when it wont start...easiest with a spark tester which are readily available and cheap from most spares shops.



#9 pullark

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Posted 01 September 2013 - 03:30 AM

latest update in the saga.....

I managed to get components off another motor which I heard running perfectly. Changed over throttle body, position sensor, MPA sensor , ICV. Did these one by one. Result ...absolutely no change. So i think I've eliminated these possible causes. Next step will be spark test. If this is OK then..... fuel pressure regulator (how do you test this?) and injectors.

This is beginning to !Removed! me off but I will get to the bottom of it.

Cheers



#10 wase16ll

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Posted 01 September 2013 - 11:45 AM

easiest way to test regulator is with fuel pressure testers, if you can get your hands on one, then you can test the output of the fuel pump as well as the regulator...otherwise

if you have a donor car, much easier to swap the whole injector rail over, complete with regulator/injectors

 

silly question....but is there any possibility diesel has been put into tank?



#11 pullark

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Posted 07 October 2013 - 03:24 AM

I decided to have another crack at my troublesome car over the weekend. Bought a spark tester and result was that it has a strong spark on all cylinders when tester set with gap at about 8 mm. However the spark was orange/yellow. I would have expected to see a blue spark but maybe that's not the case with a coilpack?

I'm at the point where I think I need to take the car to someone who has good diagnostic equipment. If I have a fuel pressure problem for example, is this something a diagnostic device that reads real time data would pick up? it's  hassle to get the car to a garage so I just want to ensure the time and money involved would be worth it.

Cheers

Kevin



#12 wase16ll

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Posted 07 October 2013 - 05:13 PM

reading back, is this car a non runner?

 

im taking it that it isnt starting...so

 

you have confirmed you have a reasonable spark, so next obvious check will be fuel..

 

taking necessary precautions, check fuel supply when engine is turning...dont be suprised if fuel cuts off after a short time as the test could trigger the cut off switch {talking of which, worth checking this hasnt already been triggered}

 

if you have a supply, then next test would be pressure..although live data can give a reading of sorts, it can no way be regarded as accurate, far better to use a pressure tester



#13 NicLamb

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Posted 14 October 2013 - 10:56 AM

not good with ford but this happend on my Rover mini, it was the MAP sensor, not sure if there's electric idle control on Ka's or not?




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