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Mondeo P0251 Injection Pump A - Circuit Malfunction (Cam/rotor/injector)


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#16 BOF

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Posted 06 December 2013 - 12:02 PM

ford mondeo tdci 130 zetec s. 120,000 miles.

 

Car keeps cutting out alot just after glow plug light comes on could be a few seconds after setting off or a couple of minutes. totally random but happens more when foot is down and when at higher speeds 50-60. don't go any faster lol. also in limp but not always

 

it wont start off the key when cold it has to be bumped off.

 

Had an OBD reader on it and it come up with P0251 INJECTION PUMP A - CIRCUIT MALFUNCTION (cam/rotor/injector)

That sounds as if it might (just might) be an electrical problem with the various speed sensors in the system, and getting inconsistent results from them. It is probably worth pulling out various relevant connectors, spraying with WD40, working the connectors in and out a few times and trying again. That part is so low cost, that it has to be worth a try.

 

After that, I think the best suggestion os a visit to a Diesel Specialist (Bosch, or similar) in your area. The rest of the stuff is so difficult if you don't know what you are doing with diesels that I think it would turn out best. 

 

When you say that it cuts out at up to a couple of minutes after setting out, does that mean that if you ran it at idle, or maybe faster, for a couple of minutes and then set out, it would be ok? That's not general advice for running the car, just that it would be a bit of evidence to know what is happening.

 

it wont start off the key when cold it has to be bumped off.

 

You are saying that the car will crank (at a normal speed) from the key, but that doesn't start it, aren't you?

 

I have put a grey cam sensor in mine was black..  

 

So, you have changed the cam sensor for a new one (?). Did you get this from Ford, or somewhere else? Did this change anything about the symptoms? And, this cam sensor is not the same as the old one, but, as far as you can see it is only the colour that is different? What makes you think that this new sensor is the right one (did whoever sold you this tell you, and do you think that they actually knew)?

 

How did the old sensor look (any evidence of damage, even slight, to the sensing part? any crud at the tip?) and could you examine the teeth that it senses closely to tell anything about their condition?

 

What about the temperature sensor? Does the wiring to it look ok, and does the dash temperature gauge read sensibly (and, if you can read ECU parameters, does it seem to have sensible temperatures that start off from ambient and warm up in roughly the correct way)?

 

And, there are no other mystery electrical problems on the car, are there, that might be indicative of something like a bad earth connection?

 

Sorry about all the questions, but with a car of this age and which has been sold by someone who has been, err, economical with the truth at the time of sale, taking things for granted is rather risky. One of the reasons that a specialist might be best placed to home in on the issues, because there are so many possibilities...



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#17 AndrewGallon

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Posted 06 December 2013 - 02:46 PM

Hi BOF, thanks for your info q's I will try and answer as best I can .
The car does crank at a normal speed when trying to start but won't fire up.
When it has been running it will start of a couple of cranks if it try for too long with the key it will stop and bring a flashing glow plug light.
Normally once started and ''driving'' at speeds more than 20 hasn't cut out under that speed.
Any speed about 20 the glow light will come on and will cut out. If I take 1st through its full gear then 2nd at top revs it will have a glow plug light and cut out once in 3 rd gear, it seems to be when I want more power/speed that it does it more regular.
So 3rd 4th 5th 6th glow plug light and cut out.

Cam sensor looks exactly the same give my reg and he give me that one no visual damage to old sensor that's visible
I have changed my fuel filter today now from what looks to me as some one said in earlier post metal filings. Only a few though cut filter open and found not on the filter and there was another 2 on the bottom.
I am going to look up where the temperature sensor and variable speed sensors are. Cheers guys

#18 BOF

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Posted 06 December 2013 - 06:25 PM

OK, I don't know to make of this, but it is really odd that it seems to depend on vehicle speed rather than engine revs.

 

'Bad' sensing of the cam is the kind of thing that can cause this type of fault, but that could be

  • bad cam sensor, itself
  • bad (badly corroded, out of round) cam toothed wheel
  • incorrect clearance between sensor and toothed wheel
  • bad wiring back to the module

(and basically the same stuff on the crank sensor, because all that has to happen is for the two to disagree for the controller to know that there is a problem and not know which is wrong).

 

If the temp sensor is reporting the wrong engine temperature (and not just slightly out, but considerably out) then the engine controller could be doing the wrong thing for the temperature that actually exists at the engine - if it is only slightly out, the engine will run a bit less well (maybe a minor loss of fuel economy, wrong idle speed or something), but it won't do this, so it would have to be pretty bad for this to be a cause.

 

Just one off-the-wall question; the car hasn't recently had the clutch and/or the dmf done recently, has it (as far as you know - maybe, the car came with bills and a service record)? Sometimes, if the clutch assembly disintegrates before it dies, it sheds enough metallic bits to stick to the crank sensor, and that can cause all sorts of weird symptoms.

 

Because it could be all sorts of odd things, it doesn't really make sense to go around changing all of the things that it might be until you find the right one - better to get someone with test equipment and experience on the job, if you can find someone that you trust.



#19 wase16ll

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Posted 06 December 2013 - 06:49 PM

would agree with a lot of what BOF said there....its a code that can be triggered by so many things.

 

would go through the simple/cheap tests and checks and deal with anything you find..if that doesnt sort it then diesel specialist is the best next port of call

 

wiring/connections...can dig out some voltage/resistence tests you can do with a simple meter if you want.

cam/crank sensors visual/volt/resistence tests

fuel pressure/pump sensor volt/resistence

injector leak off ( if not done before is fairly straightforward and easy to set up)

filter...already changed but needs to be a quality filter...plus you mentioned swarf in old one, not good sign but not necessarily terminal for pump either.

coding injectors...very simple if you can get hold of equipment to carry it out

glow plugs...trust me, well worth carrying out voltage/resistence test.

 

bear in mind that if it does end up going to diesel specialist, they will do all above anyway,  but the more you do and record all results the cheaper your bill will be.



#20 AndrewGallon

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Posted 07 December 2013 - 04:29 PM

Update guys changed the fuel filter very few of what looked like metal filings about 6 of them the size of fleas lol took the crank sensor out and it is absolutely covered in filings of the flywheel I have cleaned it but it don't look up to much. Think it is going to have to be a new one. Would this cause my issue...

I NEED MORE DAYLIGHT

#21 wase16ll

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Posted 07 December 2013 - 06:33 PM

quite possibly

could be sign of mass flywheel going unless been changed recently, also recommend removal of starter to thoroughly clean around the bendix as filings can ruin that too.



#22 BOF

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Posted 07 December 2013 - 09:29 PM

Update guys changed the fuel filter very few of what looked like metal filings about 6 of them the size of fleas lol took the crank sensor out and it is absolutely covered in filings of the flywheel I have cleaned it but it don't look up to much. Think it is going to have to be a new one. Would this cause my issue...

 

Bits of metal will divert the magnetic lines of flux and reduce the signal out of the crank sensor. If the signal is reduced enough, it could cause precisely this kind of problem.

 

Unfortunately, that's not a guarantee that you've found the problem (sort of assuming that it is a single problem, but, if we really don't trust the previous owner as a serial bodger, rather than thinking the he was just an unfortunate in a tricky situation, could be any combination of things wrong....which isn't really good news), but there is clearly a chance. You may not even need a new sensor (although, if there has been any mechanical damage to the sensor, then you probably do need a new sensor).



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