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exponential

New Rules On Dpf Removal Starting Feb 2014

124 posts in this topic

I'm insured with CIS.

I have a Police spec Bluefin remap from a group licence via work.

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This is the exact purpose of the test dude. It eliminates straight pipe system that you are sugggesting, for the dpf to pass a visual test it must have something to be "seen" a straight pipe will not have a dummy dpf to visually inspect and on the mk2.5 there is enough room to visually inspect the dpf although it cannot be reached without removal of parts due to it's locationNot only that a straight pipe would fail also for not having a silencer its required to have at least 2 boxes, cat, and silencer plus dpf for diesels. I think you need to think this through, your car wont be on the fence it will be 100% un road worthyPlus regarding the heavy mods done not decleared you might aswell say good bye to your licence and I'm not having ago just sharing info...Sent from my GT-I9300 using Ford OC mobile app

The modern diesel with DPF has the catylist and dpf inside the same chamber,

Dpf is the top section of the chamber and the cat is separated by a 1" space inside the chamber.

Standard 1.6TDCi exhaust on a 2010 dpf fitted DV6 engine is like this: two boxes ceramic dpf and rear silencer

Ceramic dpfs don't have regeneration software onboard,

They can't force regenerate,

Their design is to gather heat from the passing exhaust fumes, heating the ceramic coating up to temperature thus constantly burning at temperatures up to 900 degrees under full throttle on motorway runs exceeding 40 minutes.

. Image2309.jpg

Regarding dpf removal,

Find a place that removes the internals ;)

Has my dpf been removed?

Image2317.jpg

Doesn't look like it,

But that chamber only contains a catylist section

Being a self sealed ceramic, there's no eloys fluid or ignition to force regenerate, so there's nothing for them to possibly check except visual inspection.

My MOT is due in march 2014 I cant wait :) I know its not in there but they dont

IMG_20130913_153036_zpsa137f4d3.jpg

IMG_20130913_153107_zps9e71779e.jpg

mixmasterlooney likes this

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On this forum we advise that all members declare all mods. Even something such as winter tyres without notifying the insurer will invalidate your policy. It doesn't matter how small a mod you do, you should declare it as soon as possible to your insurer.

Often its better to advise your insurer in advance of the modifications you plan to make. There is a 2 fold benefit to this.

1) You pay one policy admin charge rather than however many

2) As soon as you do the mod, you are covered

The problem is that if you were to change your alloys, or do the remap now, and had every genuine intention of notifying the insurer tomorrow, if you hit me today, your insurer will void the policy. They look for any excuse at the best of times, let alone when they have to pay out for repairs, be it a Fez, CMAX or Merc SLR!

I notified my insurer about 3 months before I added mod's to my car just to be on the safe side. You have to bear in mind, driving with an undeclared mod is as bad as not having any insurance at all. Sure, if Clive was to sit behind you, his computer might say Insurance is present, but when the insurer inspects the car, finds non factory wheels, remaps and any other small things you might have done, you will be stuffed!

I don't agree with your not declaring mod's, and I have to be honest, I am disappointed to read the following comment:


If it were to happen they would be compensated by the government and I would be in a lot of debt for the rest of my working life with ccj's.

These are the reasons both yours, mine and everyone else's insurance premiums are going through the roof year on year. It shouldn't be down to the government, or the MIB to pick up the tab for your lack of willing to notify the insurer. Don't get me wrong, its good to see that you at least have insurance, and in the event of an incident you might be lucky, they might not look for the mod's and might pay out above board, but I would strongly recommend you to get everything declared. It might be a few quid increase now, but trust me, if you end up with CCJ's and then have to declare your policy cancellation for the rest of your driving career, you will end up forking out a damned sight more money than you would want to.

I'm not having a go, as most people here aren't, if anything I would hate to see you come back to the forum and announce you have ended up in this sad situation, I would rather see you come back and say that you did write off a hypercar, but you declared your mods and the claim is being done in the expected way, rather than the government picking up the tab.

Sure your insurance will be higher for a few years, but is it not better to pay a few quid more now, than a year or two's wages in a big hit, and then whatever you get bent over for later?

mixmasterlooney likes this

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The modern diesel with DPF has the catylist and dpf inside the same chamber,

Dpf is the top section of the chamber and the cat is separated by a 1" space inside the chamber.

Standard 1.6TDCi exhaust on a 2010 dpf fitted DV6 engine is like this: two boxes ceramic dpf and rear silencer

Ceramic dpfs don't have regeneration software onboard,

They can't force regenerate,

Their design is to gather heat from the passing exhaust fumes, heating the ceramic coating up to temperature thus constantly burning at temperatures up to 900 degrees under full throttle on motorway runs exceeding 40 minutes.

. Posted Image

Regarding dpf removal,

Find a place that removes the internals ;)

Has my dpf been removed?

Posted Image

Doesn't look like it,

But that chamber only contains a catylist section

Being a self sealed ceramic, there's no eloys fluid or ignition to force regenerate, so there's nothing for them to possibly check except visual inspection.

My MOT is due in march 2014 I cant wait :) I know its not in there but they dont

Posted Image

Posted Image

Lenny what are you going to do about the tailpipe emission checks that might come in though?

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Who says they might ? It's only smoke test for diesels.speculation is a !Removed!

mixmasterlooney likes this

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Who says they might ? It's only smoke test for diesels.speculation is a !Removed!

I just can't see them letting us all get away with it that easily, as somebody earlier pointed out; they are very clued up

Sent from my iPhone using Ford OC mobile app

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Ok so reading a few posts on here relating to some of my previous posts has been a real eye opener. I guess I hadn't really thought things through with regards to the insurance and I would never intentionally rip off the government. I have never claimed dole, benefits or whiplash despite being rear ended and being in a small amount of pain.

Anyway, you will all be pleased to know that my car is currently on axle stands and won't me moving until tomorrow and as of midnight, I will be fully covered for my modifications!!! I had to pay out a little to end my current policy early as they refused to insure an intercooler upgrade (by the sounds of things, purely because it wasn't listed in their drop down list). For anyone else thinking of declaring, and having difficulties, try Flux Direct who have sorted me out.

"Stoney" I now welcome you to sit in my rear view mirror, providing you can keep up (on the autobahn of course). Seriously though, thanks for the strong words, I think I needed them.

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Lenny what are you going to do about the tailpipe emission checks that might come in though?

Ive blanked the egr,

And I've got a 2.5" cat back duplex exhaust, more air mix with the fumes coming from two pipes instead of one,

So my emissions will be 50% less than a 1.7" single exit

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"Stoney" I now welcome you to sit in my rear view mirror, providing you can keep up (on the autobahn of course). Seriously though, thanks for the strong words, I think I needed them.

On an autobahn you'd be in my rear mirror ;)

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Ive blanked the egr,

And I've got a 2.5" cat back duplex exhaust, more air mix with the fumes coming from two pipes instead of one,

So my emissions will be 50% less than a 1.7" single exit

Won't they check for a certain type of emission with a DPF though. I have egr blanked and duplex rear section too, just unsure about DPF removal. Also I have no rear silencer unlike yours, just a centre. Does this mean my DPF could be different to yours? Have you deleted the egr software off the ecu out of interest?

Lenny likes this

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On an autobahn you'd be in my rear mirror ;)

Guys!

You would both be a tiny dot in my rear view mirror

because i started half-an-hour before you :lol:

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You would both be a tiny dot in my rear view mirror

because i started half-pan-nour before you

:p

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i dont get this thought that just because diesels are only tested for smoke that this could never change with the new legislation coming in.

ive no idea what they will come up with, but you can bet your last £1 that they are looking for something that goes beyond a visual/smoke test, otherwise they would have already announced that this will be just a visual/smoke check.

i'll say it again...the pressure for more stringent tests goes beyond the government and vosa...there are many powerful bodies out there with a concerned interest in seeing this practice ended.

think about it...DPF is not to lower emissions in the same way a cat is..its there to stop the natural hazardous by-products of diesel burning..these are the particulates

look around europe, legislation has been increased everywhere for many years in everything from industrial engines to smaller than any car motor out there..for longer than this country has been trying to get up to scratch...even the states has been tinkering with this problem since the eighties.

the technology exists to test exhaust systems for harmful particulates...otherwise how would manufacturers release the figures in the first place...vosa have been tinkering with the idea of obd in mot's for years already, at one point it was suggested any current fault codes would fail a test...that was binned when it was pointed out some vehicles produce codes just for plugging in, renault being a prime eg...point is, the idea of going down that route has and probably still is, being floated about.

it really is a tough decision to make to go ahead with deleting, if the system is already failed then may pay to go ahead anyway as anything more advanced than visual/smoke wont happen in feb, but anyone that states it will only ever be a visual/smoke test is kidding themselves.

when you consider the amount of different type systems being fitted, its going to be difficult to know which vehicles were fitted with/without in the first place...but i can even see a possibility in the future that all diesels will have to be retrofitted...dont dismiss that, already talks of diesels without this system being banned from central london.

vosa have got there workl cut out to put in place a foolproof system, in my head, the only way they can do this is to have DPF vehicles tested at specific centres, that could be a very attractive financial proposition for garages willing to invest in the extra equipment required...

whatever they come up with, if its done 'right', the people who may get caught out with this will be in no position to appeal or argue as its already illegal anyway, and you can bet your last £1 (if you didnt earlier) the companies offering the delete now will be pushing much harder than anyone else in offering a refit, only this time they will up their profit margin as they know you no longer have the choice.

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I am glad that you took our advice, I know it might have cost you a few quid now, but you have potentially saved yourself a lot of expense and agony in the long run in the event of worst case scenario.

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i dont get this thought that just because diesels are only tested for smoke that this could never change with the new legislation coming in.

ive no idea what they will come up with, but you can bet your last £1 that they are looking for something that goes beyond a visual/smoke test, otherwise they would have already announced that this will be just a visual/smoke check.

i'll say it again...the pressure for more stringent tests goes beyond the government and vosa...there are many powerful bodies out there with a concerned interest in seeing this practice ended.

think about it...DPF is not to lower emissions in the same way a cat is..its there to stop the natural hazardous by-products of diesel burning..these are the particulates

look around europe, legislation has been increased everywhere for many years in everything from industrial engines to smaller than any car motor out there..for longer than this country has been trying to get up to scratch...even the states has been tinkering with this problem since the eighties.

the technology exists to test exhaust systems for harmful particulates...otherwise how would manufacturers release the figures in the first place...vosa have been tinkering with the idea of obd in mot's for years already, at one point it was suggested any current fault codes would fail a test...that was binned when it was pointed out some vehicles produce codes just for plugging in, renault being a prime eg...point is, the idea of going down that route has and probably still is, being floated about.

it really is a tough decision to make to go ahead with deleting, if the system is already failed then may pay to go ahead anyway as anything more advanced than visual/smoke wont happen in feb, but anyone that states it will only ever be a visual/smoke test is kidding themselves.

when you consider the amount of different type systems being fitted, its going to be difficult to know which vehicles were fitted with/without in the first place...but i can even see a possibility in the future that all diesels will have to be retrofitted...dont dismiss that, already talks of diesels without this system being banned from central london.

vosa have got there workl cut out to put in place a foolproof system, in my head, the only way they can do this is to have DPF vehicles tested at specific centres, that could be a very attractive financial proposition for garages willing to invest in the extra equipment required...

whatever they come up with, if its done 'right', the people who may get caught out with this will be in no position to appeal or argue as its already illegal anyway, and you can bet your last £1 (if you didnt earlier) the companies offering the delete now will be pushing much harder than anyone else in offering a refit, only this time they will up their profit margin as they know you no longer have the choice.

Ive heard this all before with cats/ decats and other things

its simply not economic or practical to equip every MOT testing station with special equipment, it may be a good few years untill things are different from what they are now (simple particulates test and visual inspection of the prescence of a DPF, when possible)

This is a political thing, not a technical one - politically- the government wants to stop people from removing their DPFs, but without the technical means of detecting a DPF is present or not, so a press release is given where they say DPF deletes on cars that had them as OE spec are outlawed but there is no practical way of testing the prescence of a DPF or not >>provided the car does not produce exessive particulates(smoke) and the DPF looks phisically unaltered from the outside/ with a phisical inspection<<, so basically, its propaganda, and it will scare quite a few people from getting DPF deletes

Governments / eurocrats should not get involved in technical matters - because they don't really understand these things and almost always mess them up- it should be left to the designers/ technicians who know what they are doing

The overall impact of the presence of the DPF must be looked at, including the cost, materials used and amont of pollution produced to manufacture the DPF/ over and over during the vehicles lifespan,, the extra cost to the consumer of the DPF, the extra poluttion the extra fuel required causes to the enviroment during normal running and during forced regens etc that the presence of the DPF causes etc etc and the exessive consumption a faulty or blocked DPF causes

Another thing to point out is the DPF does not actually stop a diesel engine producing soot, it only collects it (the engine produces same amount of soot with, or without a DPF) - when a DPF equipped engine gets older, it can produce smoke particles when accelerating, especially in the lower gears (in built up areas/ potentially near schools etc) instead of it being "spread around"

if a DPF - eqquiped diesel car is used frequently for short journeys, the consumption can go right up, this fuel has to be refined etc, and the overall pollution/ impact on the enviroment may be considerable

Engines (and fuels) need to be developed to the point that something as backward as a DPF is no longer nessesary because the emmisions from the engine is clean enough anyway

Companies and garages will continue to provide DPF deletes (probably for years to come) but they will be officially for "off road use only" (eg for your "track day" 1.6 TDCI :lol: ) - simples

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Won't they check for a certain type of emission with a DPF though. I have egr blanked and duplex rear section too, just unsure about DPF removal. Also I have no rear silencer unlike yours, just a centre. Does this mean my DPF could be different to yours? Have you deleted the egr software off the ecu out of interest?

Not sure about the emissions check but Id put in a bottle of STP nct per test kit proven to lower the emissions,

The cat will still do its job and although all modern diesels are fitted with dpf,

Not all diesels have the same emissions band.

So f the mot do bring in an emissions test n diesels then there will be a tolerance band.

I wouldn't worry about not having a rear muffler box, your focus would have had one initially but the removed it when fitting the duplex,

Only thing is: when you or if you remove your dpf internals, your exhaust will obtain a bit more grunt,

It won't be loud or raspy but more of a grumble.

I haven't had the egr software deleted but its blanked.

Couldn't find anywhere to delete the software,

But then Id only need software delete if I was going to physically remove the egr valve,

And I'm pretty sure there's a visual inspection n the egr valve too,

But they cant fail you for blanking it.

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Track day 1.6TDCi :lol: CHOPPED ¡¡

What do they use it for..... distributing cones and flags?

The whole reason I bought a VTEC petrol, because the diesel engine mixed with turn lag and heavy body is like an elephant on a tricycle going in to bends and pure out of breath exiting the hair pins.

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Track day 1.6TDCi :lol: CHOPPED ¡¡

What do they use it for..... distributing cones and flags?

The whole reason I bought a VTEC petrol, because the diesel engine mixed with turn lag and heavy body is like an elephant on a tricycle going in to bends and pure out of breath exiting the hair pins.

I disagree! You just need to know how to drive. I have a diesel and despite understanding where you are coming from if you anticipate the corners and get on the power before you would normally need to, you get all the Power you need at the right time to pull you out of the bends. I regularly destroy a lot of my friends on tracks who own similar engined petrol variants. I would imagine the 1.6 may be a little more sluggish than mine.

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Track day 1.6TDCi :lol: CHOPPED ¡¡

What do they use it for..... distributing cones and flags?

The whole reason I bought a VTEC petrol, because the diesel engine mixed with turn lag and heavy body is like an elephant on a tricycle going in to bends and pure out of breath exiting the hair pins.

I disagree! You just need to know how to drive. I have a diesel and despite understanding where you are coming from if you anticipate the corners and get on the power before you would normally need to, you get all the Power you need at the right time to pull you out of the bends. I regularly destroy a lot of my friends on tracks who own similar engined petrol variants. I would imagine the 1.6 may be a little more sluggish than mine.

The point i was making was if the companies doing the DPF deletes now are not "officially" allowed to remove DPFs for road cars they can continue to remove DPFs legally for off road cars like track day cars - so you woud take your "track day" 1.6 TDCI to have the DPF deleted, pefectly legally from the same companies that are doing road cars now, if you know what i mean

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Lenny... I used to track my last focus... Nothing wrong with a diesel track car, just have to adjust driving style from those dirty high revving petrols!!!

My old 1.8 was awesome at overtaking things then covering them in a black mist ;)

You've just been derv'd!!

Such a satisfying feeling knowing you've just beaten someone that thinks their petrol car is much better than your tdci

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Ive heard this all before with cats/ decats and other things

its simply not economic or practical to equip every MOT testing station with special equipment, it may be a good few years untill things are different from what they are now (simple particulates test and visual inspection of the prescence of a DPF, when possible)

This is a political thing, not a technical one - politically- the government wants to stop people from removing their DPFs, but without the technical means of detecting a DPF is present or not, so a press release is given where they say DPF deletes on cars that had them as OE spec are outlawed but there is no practical way of testing the prescence of a DPF or not >>provided the car does not produce exessive particulates(smoke) and the DPF looks phisically unaltered from the outside/ with a phisical inspection<<, so basically, its propaganda, and it will scare quite a few people from getting DPF deletes

Governments / eurocrats should not get involved in technical matters - because they don't really understand these things and almost always mess them up- it should be left to the designers/ technicians who know what they are doing

The overall impact of the presence of the DPF must be looked at, including the cost, materials used and amont of pollution produced to manufacture the DPF/ over and over during the vehicles lifespan,, the extra cost to the consumer of the DPF, the extra poluttion the extra fuel required causes to the enviroment during normal running and during forced regens etc that the presence of the DPF causes etc etc and the exessive consumption a faulty or blocked DPF causes

Another thing to point out is the DPF does not actually stop a diesel engine producing soot, it only collects it (the engine produces same amount of soot with, or without a DPF) - when a DPF equipped engine gets older, it can produce smoke particles when accelerating, especially in the lower gears (in built up areas/ potentially near schools etc) instead of it being "spread around"

if a DPF - eqquiped diesel car is used frequently for short journeys, the consumption can go right up, this fuel has to be refined etc, and the overall pollution/ impact on the enviroment may be considerable

Engines (and fuels) need to be developed to the point that something as backward as a DPF is no longer nessesary because the emmisions from the engine is clean enough anyway

Companies and garages will continue to provide DPF deletes (probably for years to come) but they will be officially for "off road use only" (eg for your "track day" 1.6 TDCI :lol: ) - simples

lot of that is incorrect

for starters, there is no test for particulates at present on diesels...its plain old smoke density...granted, with diesel, that smoke will contain particulates but the equipment used to measure cannot detect what that smoke consists of.

it is a political decision, but not the uk, its european legislation in reducing pollution and its a legislation that is spreading worldwide as its common knowledge that diesel particulate is harmful to both the atmosphere and health...technical side of this is the massive growth in diesel sales worldwide compared to 20/30 yrs ago..the manufacturers of diesel burners, not just cars, have always worked towards cleaner burners long before any legislation came in, the dpf system was going to happen anyway, despite any new laws.

as for politics staying out of it...will never happen, you need to understand the harm these particulates cause to human health, that alone stops it being just a technical issue.

your correct in stating dpf system engine stil produce sootl, but your wrong about the amount, the modern engine produces less and less soot as technology advances, the dpf is just collecting what is left...trust me, stick a dpf in a 25 yr old bus or taxi for eg, it wont last very long at all,

the whole point of the dpf is to stop the particulates, if a dpf is still fitted then those particulates will not release in any greater amount as they cannot bypass the filter, no matter how many miles the engine is done or how hard you accelerate, yes it will use more fuel when blocking but thats down to lack of maintenence/knowledge of system and flawed technology.

can assure you, even track day engines will not be allowed to remove the dpf if one was fitted from new, it has always been an illegal practice on anything, not just cars.

as i said before, would be far easier to do something that will stop the firms deleting, dead in their tracks, in time the deletes will become less and less popular anyway.

comparing to decats is irrelevent as they do completely different tasks, but like petrol/cat engines, in time the techology will improve to make the dpf system far more reliable and possibly negate the use in years ahead.

one things for certain, its not going to happen in feb, it will get more detailed as years go by....i was never interested in buying a motor with dpf, looking at the way things will head in the future, i very much doubt i'll buy a diesel again either.

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I disagree! You just need to know how to drive. I have a diesel and despite understanding where you are coming from if you anticipate the corners and get on the power before you would normally need to, you get all the Power you need at the right time to pull you out of the bends. I regularly destroy a lot of my friends on tracks who own similar engined petrol variants. I would imagine the 1.6 may be a little more sluggish than mine.

i can understand having a 2.0TDCi on the track, but my 1.6TDCi for example was a 90bhp model as standard now remapped to 125bhp, ive not had it n a track but i have had it on bendy mountain roads and i see your point to anticipate corners and select the right gear to get power on exit but its alot more work compared to dropping a gear in a petrol, ive not driven a 2.0TDCi but yeah the 1.6TDCi is slow in 2nd and 3rd gear

Lenny... I used to track my last focus... Nothing wrong with a diesel track car, just have to adjust driving style from those dirty high revving petrols!!!My old 1.8 was awesome at overtaking things then covering them in a black mist ;)You've just been derv'd!!Such a satisfying feeling knowing you've just beaten someone that thinks their petrol car is much better than your tdci

:) I bet a colt on a good long straight few months ago, and kept up with a golf gti before well around quarter mile behind :lol: but what cost him half a tank cost me a quarter, I do enjoy diesel but sometimes you can't beat the smell, sound and performance of a petrol

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Petrol is a swear word around me lol!

Tho I am still considering a ST... Especially now I'm doing minimal miles...

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Petrol is a swear word around me lol!Tho I am still considering a ST... Especially now I'm doing minimal miles...

Better off with a mk1 RS or Honda S2000

The mk2 focus is very heavy and the steering radius of the ST isint great,

Trust me I'm rolling with the ST chassis setup suspension and wheels

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