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New Mot Requirements ( Dpf And/or Catalysts )

MOT Diesel DPF Particulate Filter Calayst

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#16 jeebowhite

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Posted 12 February 2014 - 10:22 AM

Well said there Tony!

 

There is another simple test that they can do - knock knock!

 

if the tester knocks on the canister and there is nothing in there, they can hear that its a void and could fail the MOT on that basis, unless the shell is left in there, this could very quickly be an easy means of identifying a DPF removal.



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#17 ChrisCooper

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Posted 12 February 2014 - 11:47 AM

Does seem the forum has changed it's tune recently in regard to this. Wasn't long ago there were many posts advocating removal and dismissing the changes as unworkable or not a big problem. Where have you lot been when people have been previously saying "just have an empty shell"? Seems everyone is now jumping on the doom and gloom bandwagon. Probably justified, but perhaps a little late?
I've been concerned for a while but haven't wanted to speak up because of the seeming weight of opinion that it would be fine. Ok, I was wrong on roadside testing which I felt wouldn't be easy, but I've never doubted that MOTs would be able to detect removals even if careful.
Not trying to attack anyone, but can't feel we have let people down who might have decided to have removals recently based on bad advice and lack of more cautious opinions in recent months (since the changes were announced). Perhaps it's time for the forum to clap down on advocation of DPF removal, either offically or just making sure to counter alternative opinions on the subject.

#18 wase16ll

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Posted 12 February 2014 - 05:34 PM

i was involved in a few of the early topics when it was announced that dpf became part of the test...my stance hasnt changed from then..if you do it, then do so at your risk

i wasnt alone in that either

 

there were a few dismissing this new regulation, i know i wasnt alone in trying to make people think a bit more carefully before going ahead with deletes

 

my main issue is this standard spiel of "yes, we can delete the system, and you wont get any issues with mot" by the firms offering the service

thats just plain wrong in my eyes, they cannot guarantee any such thing unless they are willing to carry out an illegal test themselves....when the test gets stricter, many will come unstuck and you can bet your last pound these firms wont be handing out refunds.

 

 

the sooner they make it financially a major risk to anyone offering deletes, the better.

 

as for those that have had the deletion already, as much as i understand the need for this kind of system, i also understand the wish to have them removed..put it bluntly, they are a poor design and have little shelf life when compared to cost of repairs/maintenance for your average car user

but owners cant have it both ways..either have it refitted or reclass the tax band {noticed VOSA have gone along this line with goods vehicles).



#19 south_bound

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Posted 12 February 2014 - 08:30 PM

It would be interesting to hear from anyone who has had a dpf removed and then failed the MOT for this reason - in theory this should be happening over the next year or so.  In the meantime its all hyperthetical and not based on any direct experience.  I did previously suggest one guarantee would be to get the removal job done at a garage which also does MOTs and go back there every year.

 

BTW, mine was removed and went through the MOT the very next day without issue (after the anouncements).  The MOT tester basically said that as there is no access to the empty cannister due to the engine block, heat shield and under tray then there is no way they can even inspect visually on the Focus without taking off a load of stuff, let alone tap it for a hollow noise or look for weld marks.  I'm still sleeping easy at night over it.



#20 mixmasterlooney

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Posted 12 February 2014 - 08:53 PM

It would be interesting to hear from anyone who has had a dpf removed and then failed the MOT for this reason - in theory this should be happening over the next year or so.  In the meantime its all hyperthetical and not based on any direct experience.  I did previously suggest one guarantee would be to get the removal job done at a garage which also does MOTs and go back there every year.
 
BTW, mine was removed and went through the MOT the very next day without issue (after the anouncements).  The MOT tester basically said that as there is no access to the empty cannister due to the engine block, heat shield and under tray then there is no way they can even inspect visually on the Focus without taking off a load of stuff, let alone tap it for a hollow noise or look for weld marks.  I'm still sleeping easy at night over it.


Yeah I'm not worried about the new ruling myself as far as goes nothing has changed imo

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#21 wase16ll

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Posted 12 February 2014 - 08:54 PM

any garage that wishes to risk an investment of thousands of pounds in mot licence, in order they can carry on deleting are seriously light in the brain cell dept.

dont think anyone has suggested you will instantly fail under the present system checks...but your kidding yourselves if you dont believe that system check will not change as soon as they come up with a viable solution...thats the point

 

there is direct experience if you use a goods vehicle...remember the tester can fail it even if they only have a suspision of tampering, then its up to the owner to prove its still as was designed



#22 mixmasterlooney

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Posted 12 February 2014 - 09:56 PM

Goods vehicle mot's are far more strict than cars I would not compare the two it isn't just dpf the vosa is strict about with goods vehicle.

Vosa has always been very clear about the impacts on test centers rolling out new rules will have and in most cases delay or not have the rule at all. Without removing any components on the car the only logical thing to do is introduce equipment for emission testing. This is not something easily integrated into an mot test. The equipment must be certified tested and maintained plus additional cost to vosa checks on mot test centers it would bump the mot cost.

I'm not saying vosa may never introduce new ways of checking but for now I highly doubt it, petrol engines spit out far more harmful gasses than diesel and in a time when diesel engines are becoming cleaner year after year I don't see it make sense pumpin money into tech for monitoring a fuel type that is out performing petrol on cost and emissions, its not logical.

A 1.8tdci focus none dpf out perform my 16 year old 1.4 vw on power and emissions yet being 16 years old it spits out the same emissions as a 1.6 petrol today

Some low emission diesel vehicles can't even have a smoke test done with equipment because the levels are so low it won't registered I really don't see the point in so much effort trying to enforce this rule when including the extra cost and work and time.

Imagine trying to bring a diesel upto working temperature during cold winter to get a accurate reading it would never happen idling, think of the extra time this has on an mot and loss of profit to test centers. In current temperature driving around london I can go for several miles before the temp gauge even move.

All for what? Spotting the few cars with a dpf removed? Not logical but not impossible

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#23 wase16ll

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Posted 13 February 2014 - 12:15 AM

I'm not saying vosa may never introduce new ways of checking but for now
I highly doubt it, petrol engines spit out far more harmful gasses than
diesel and in a time when diesel engines are becoming cleaner year
after year I don't see it make sense pumpin money into tech for
monitoring a fuel type that is out performing petrol on cost and
emissions, its not logical.

common mistake...DPF do not clean the emissions/gasses, they are purely for trapping particulate matter that you only find in diesel burners...non DPF are far more harmful than petrol in many ways..when people get their heads around this then they may understand why there are some very powerful bodies pushing for tampering to be eliminated and realise that, however long it takes, they will find a way whatever the cost.

 

Goods vehicle mot's are far more strict than cars I would not compare
the two it isn't just dpf the vosa is strict about with goods vehicle.

that is true, but the DPF rules didnt come in till February, they are tinkering with cars, but they have put the onus on owners to prove the DPF system is intact for goods...this was a quick fix for the higher polluting vehicles, this wont be the finalised solution for goods as its no more a finalised solution of just a visual for cars.

 

bowing out of this and similar topics, only so much you can say or advise....will just say be very, very wary of people making promises when they have a financial interest in doing so



#24 Howard1471

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Posted 13 February 2014 - 09:26 AM

When the DPF was removed from my 1.6TDCi it was done for financial reasons, namely the cost of the DPF replacement. Costs appear to have come down significantly in between times so fitting a new one is far more realistic for me. This may reduce the number of people who "have" to go down the delete route.

My car has just crept in under the bar with this regulation, this year.  I now know that before it's next test I shall need to have a new device fitted, if only for peace of mind.

 

For the sake of future readers can anyone provide links to suppliers of DPFs and or Catalysts for the Ford range (other than Ford themselves :P



#25 mixmasterlooney

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Posted 13 February 2014 - 06:45 PM

common mistake...DPF do not clean the emissions/gasses, they are purely for trapping particulate matter that you only find in diesel burners...non DPF are far more harmful than petrol in many ways..when people get their heads around this then they may understand why there are some very powerful bodies pushing for tampering to be eliminated and realise that, however long it takes, they will find a way whatever the cost


Yeah I didn't say the dpf clean the emission I said diesel engines have become cleaner but I could have... the mk2.5 focus has a dpf and cat in one, the cat converts harmfull gasses into less harmful gasses so it does actually clean up the emission. A dpf only however does not.




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#26 wase16ll

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Posted 13 February 2014 - 10:20 PM

Yeah I didn't say the dpf clean the emission I said diesel engines have become cleaner
but I could have... the mk2.5 focus has a dpf and cat in one, the cat
converts harmfull gasses into less harmful gasses so it does actually
clean up the emission. A dpf only however does not.

 

catalytic and dpf are completely different,

you get diesels with cats and no dpf....the cat improves the emissions but it cannot trap the microscopic  particulate matter that is a natural result in diesel burning...hence the next stage of cats and dpf

so any modern diesel without dpf, although the emissions are cleaner in enviromental terms, the PM is still being released, this PM is a major player in causes of asthma as well as many other similar conditions in living organisms, be it human/animal or plant

 

due to the huge increase in sales of diesel engine varients in the last 20 years, levels of PM are much higher, as are sufferers of conditions such as asthma..this is proven fact, so you have some major powerful bodies from all round uk and europe pushing for cleaner air, you also have cities fighting to improve city air pollution to comply with european legislations in order to avoid major penalties if they fail...diesel pollutants are a recognised, major reason for excessive pollution in cities...

 

this is why car manufacturers are investing millions in improving the systems and why governments are willing to reward/bribe purchasers to buy the cleaner models......

 

does anybody seriously think that the common practice of deleting will be allowed to carry on without penalty????



#27 artscot79

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Posted 13 February 2014 - 10:36 PM

Its always been illegal ask any dpf delete company if in writing they will gaurantee that the delete wont be detected that if it is they accept responsibility to replace the dpf theyll laugh in youre face

a place near me now refuses to do the job for fear of the ramifications and my ford dealer told me any cars traded in with dpfs as standard will be inspected if the dpfs removed you can keep youre car they wont touch it

even the small garage i worked at checks they will remove the gubbins to get to it A simple tap test is all it takes.

Each to there own if you wanna do it do it we should stop accepting posts and stop advising to remove we do this but yet cant give out a radio code which is worse?

#28 mixmasterlooney

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Posted 13 February 2014 - 11:49 PM

 
catalytic and dpf are completely different,
you get diesels with cats and no dpf....the cat improves the emissions but it cannot trap the microscopic  particulate matter that is a natural result in diesel burning...hence the next stage of cats and dpf
so any modern diesel without dpf, although the emissions are cleaner in enviromental terms, the PM is still being released, this PM is a major player in causes of asthma as well as many other similar conditions in living organisms, be it human/animal or plant
 
due to the huge increase in sales of diesel engine varients in the last 20 years, levels of PM are much higher, as are sufferers of conditions such as asthma..this is proven fact, so you have some major powerful bodies from all round uk and europe pushing for cleaner air, you also have cities fighting to improve city air pollution to comply with european legislations in order to avoid major penalties if they fail...diesel pollutants are a recognised, major reason for excessive pollution in cities...
 
this is why car manufacturers are investing millions in improving the systems and why governments are willing to reward/bribe purchasers to buy the cleaner models......
 
does anybody seriously think that the common practice of deleting will be allowed to carry on without penalty????


I am aware cats and dpf are two different things.

I won't dwell into eu emission standards. Because those future standards will not apply to current cars

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#29 wase16ll

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Posted 14 February 2014 - 12:27 AM

so then you understand that even the cleanest most modern diesel burners with cats, STILL produce dpm out the tailpipe, hence the need for dpf's...



#30 south_bound

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Posted 14 February 2014 - 07:57 AM

Each to there own if you wanna do it do it we should stop accepting posts and stop advising to remove we do this but yet cant give out a radio code which is worse?

 

 

Surely the purpose of a forum is to discuss these things and get help or support from others with similar interests, including those with different opinions?  I get a great deal of very useful information by asking on this forum in particular, and I post when I have something useful or helpful to add.  When I was thinking about getting rid of my dpf I did much trawling for information and discussion and as a result I felt I had all the important considerations to make a balanced judgement.  I am responsible enough to take my own decisions and to accept responsibility for them, and not just follow the nanny state decree without question.  It would be a shame to lose this resource just to keep the political correct police happy.



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