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Please Help Mondeo 1.8Tdci 57Reg


xdazx
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if car starts with clutch pressed, then i'd have the crank end float checked..

end float is governed by thrust washers in the crank case, if they are worn, this will allow the crank to move, bearing in mind that the crank sensor pick up is on the flywheel, which in turn is bolted to crank...so, without the clutch pressed that end float is causing interference in the crank signal, because the flywheel is 'out of line' with the crank sensor...engaging the clutch effectively pushes the flywheel toward the engine, bringing the crank sensor/flywheel back into alignment, engine fires up.

would have the end float checked...if it is excessive, then that will seriously hurt your wallet.

can see the thought process your mechanic has taken, but would make more sense to be end float rather than the flywheel itself...often overlooked as its not such a common problem on the modern engine, not over familier with the 1.8tdci clutch/flywheel set up, but maybe possible that the dmf itself can create the same scenario..

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The car wont always start 1st time with clutch in most times it takes several attempts even several minutes/hours (if the battery has not gone flat with attempts) this is why its so confusing because it allways started without clutch b4 i had the fuel system done at xmass

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misunderstood, so if it can take minutes/hours to start with clutch pressed, does it not do the same then without clutch pressed ?

when plugging in the diagnostic, have the live signals been checked as car attempts to start, particularly cam and crank sensors?

has anyone done a fuel pressure check on the car, or checked the fuel system is not drawing in air

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It wont start with key and throatal like it used to b4 i had fuel system done. Its had new fuel rail etc. the mechanic says that the flywheel not sending the rite message to fuel rail hence he says need new dmf ???

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understand his thinking, but what i mean is, has he detected a signal failure from the crank sensor or just taken an educated guess?

a dmf can only interupt the signal if its worn and throwing metal filings onto the sensor, if its not doing that, then only other reason is flywheel is moving, and that can only really be caused by the thrust washers.

the pick up on the flywheel for the crank sensor remains constant, even if the dmf part of the flywheel is all but hanging off....in other words, the ring gear section of the flywheel remains solidly bolted to the crank...cant think of any other way to explain this.

so either there is excess movement on the crank caused by worn thrust washers, or the dmf is worn and coating the crank sensor with metal filings..both of which can cause problems with the signal.

if its an educated guess, then it needs to be confirmed before condemning the dmf.

this can be done with proper diagnostics/oscilloscopes..otherwise your taking a very expensive gamble.

if its found to be a signal problem, then the sensor and wiring needs to be tested, easy to overlook a faulty sensor because its new

i've no idea if this mechanic is the same person that dealt with all the fueling issues, or how well he is kitted out for diagnostics, but in my opinion, it needs everything plugged in and scanned when the problem is occuring, fuel pressure guages, 4 channel oscilloscope as well as appropiate scanner on the ecu...as the problem is a regular issue, should be straightforward to pinpoint the problem..

got to be worth spending a few quid on expert diagnosis rather than gamble 600 plus on a possiblity

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Thanks for all that yeah its been on a m/c by a ford mech it is the same bloke who done the fuel system he asked this ford bloke to come down and test things. Every sensor on car has been checked and they are saying the flywheel is worn

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did they explain how the flywheel is preventing a start?

not convinced with a dmf failing causing a non start...but then run without problem once it does

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He said sum plate or sumat worn and has slight movement in flywheel and its not lineing up properly so not sending the rite message to fuel rail ?? I went to car this morning when was cold n frozen over at 6am n took a couple starts n 2nite wen finished work fired straight up (but still had to put clutch in 2start)

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but thats my point...the dmf wont cause the crank sensor and flywheel to go out of alignment..

in order for that to happen, the solid part of the flywheel will have to be either, distorted..in which case you should be experiencing horrendous vibration...or the crankshaft end float is excessive, which is down to the thrust washers, not the dmf.

dmf is made up of 2 parts...the solid flywheel, which incorporates the ring gear for the starter motor to engage and spin the engine...there are also the teeth for the timing, not sure exactly how these are set up on the mondy but guarantee you they will be on the solid section of the flywheel.

the damper side of the flywheel is in effect, attatched to the solid section, now this is basicly the section that fails, and it can wobble and spin out of its expected tolerence as much as it likes, but it wont put the solid section out of alignment with the crank sensor or the starter.

if the damper section fails, it starts spitting out swarf, that swarf can cover the crank sensor, which is basicly a magnet, and interfere with the crank signal..easy to check, remove the sensor and check the tip for metal filings...that swarf also finds its way into the starter motor which will eventually cause this to fail too.

so, if they are convinced its flywheel /crank sensor are out of alignment...then im struggling to understand how this is being blamed on the dmf

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Tbh m8 thats us both baffeled on this 1 as a few say they cannot work out why the dmf needs doing. There has been no mention of metal being found anyware on crank or starter. And tbh it was only the top half of engine he would have touched to clean and change parts plus the fuel tank to clean and drain

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im a long way from being convinced

in your shoes, id be pushing for proof/guarantee before spending out on a clutch/dmf

find the remark that they are still not sure doing this will work, seriously worrying.

its why i asked have they seen physical evidence of the crank signal going haywire, (a question well worth asking them actually) or are they taking an educated guess on the basis that pressing the clutch seems to improve the starting...this could be a total red herring.

going by the work you have had done, and the symptoms you are reporting, plus the fact this has only started to happen since the work...it really does sound like a fueling issue to me...all boils down to if they have 100% seen a faulty crank signal

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Im thinking they goin on the clutch part of what you said as he did say he cud not guarantee new dmf curing it. Im thinking aswell as others about a fuel issue but tbh i cannot afford to pay to have it all checked out :(

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be a lot cheaper that having a clutch/dmf fitted though...

trust me, clutch/dmf will not interfere with the crank signal, unless the dmf is throwing out metal swarf..

you could do a search on the www for others having problems starting caused by dmf...guarantee you, not one of them will be causing crank/flywheel going out of alignment...it will all be starter motor failing or crank sensor..both of which caused by the swarf.

i'd be tempted to give the engine a generous squirt of easy start, next time you start it...if that gets it going a lot quicker then you have proved beyond doubt its fueling issue..

no improvement by doing that, then it could still be fueling, or indeed the crank signal or a hundred other possibles...but 100% not dmf putting crank out of alignment...

if the crank really is floating about and interfering with the signal...then that is almost certainly, thrust washers

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Tbh m8 i will just have to leave it for now till i can save up to get some1 to look at it as its costs me a grand upto now but thanks for all your help i will show your replies to a differant mechanic for a quote :)

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no problem...still be tempted to try a bit of easy start though...because if its fueling you should get it sorted for gratis after all that you have already spent getting that system up to scratch..especially as it wasnt happening before this

actually, did this issue start from when the work was done, or was there a break between?

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If i take a inlet pipe off and spray fuel down it it will fire up with key n throttle only. I gave him the car back and told him this and he said hes checked it and it will go like that but theres nothing wrong with fuel system hes said he and another bloke with a diff diagnostic m/c checked and everything ok no faults. And all he comes bk with is dmf 😥

It only started having to use clucth after he done fuel system

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doesnt make any sense at all (him, not you)

he found no faults on 2 machines, but comes to the conclusion the crank sensor signal is being interfered with....erm...thats what i would call a fault mate, and very easily tested for with the right knowledge and machine

then suggests its DMF, though cant guarantee it, not to mention the easy start appears to by-pass this 'fault'...erm....how does a DMF affect a crank signal, and even if it did, why does it show no further problem when its started and running, surely would expect rough running or power loss or cutting out, or any combination of the 3...and how did the easy start by-pass this problem...

makes no sense whatsoever.then we can start asking if the DMF is bad enough to interfere with the crank signal, then surely you should get other symptoms such as knocking/rattling, especially on start up and shut down, maybe a vibration in clutch or gear selsction problems..

its impossible to diagnose something like this over the www, made even harder by info being given to you is very suspect at the least..

but the problem only developed after all the fueling work, coupled with classic symptoms of a fueling issue makes me think the only reason the diagnostic machines are not coming up with any faults for one very good reason...its not the sort of fault you will find with a scanner.

really dont know what to suggest beyond taking somewhere else for a 2nd opinion

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I cannot agree more all i can do now is to save and get it checked over by another mech and see what he says and go from there :( it may be a while now tho as i got finished from work on friday :(

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ouch...sorry to hear that, wish you luck

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  • 2 weeks later...

No mate still plays up it slightly better starting with a new crank sensor unless he dun sumat else n not told me.

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About right that mate they !Removed! ain't they think I have gotta put a new abs module on mine tomorrow but fingers crossed it's the right one from the scrap yard because they are £1000 from ford would sooner scrap car than pay that :-)

Sent from my iPhone using Ford OC

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Ouch no luck on eBay ?? Im sure it sumat to do with fuel or along them lines ?? I won a free engine remap on 1 of the forums 2nite :) im wel chuffed

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That sounds good mate more bhp in your life I would take it to another mechanic sounds a bit guess work with mega bucks involved there is a decent scrap yard near me that has fixed prices for all car parts and they good prices gonna go tomorrow and see what the crack is but they have 2 focus in so hopefully one should me same because mines only a reg newer :-)

Sent from my iPhone using Ford OC

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