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Hutchy70

Clutch Bleeding Problem

26 posts in this topic

Hi Guys, I have a 2006 Mondeo Mk3 2.0ltr TDCi Hatch,with a clutch problem. I am hopeing someone can help solve my problem.

Simply, my clutch wont bleed even using a Gunson Pressure Bleeder. I have tried bleeding the recommended way through the reservoir but no joy, (it didn't pee in the bottle for me) so I adapted it so I could reverse bleed it from the bleed nipple, but no fluid movement in either direction.

A few months ago I fitted new Alloys and cleaned all the brakes, fitted new pads and bled them all successfully. I also bled the clutch which also worked fine but not this time. it's totally got me stumped :unsure: : I tried using the Gunson above the max pressure of 20psi up to 30psi but I darn't go any higher(I don't want to blow any seals). There just isn't any fluid movement at all even with the bleed nipple completely removed, not even a drip.

Now the pedal no longer has any resistance and just flip-flops up and down by hand. This only happened when I tried to bleed it to improve pressure on the pedal as it was not returning all the way up. The clutch did work OK until then but only got pressure in the last half of the pedal travel.

I really hope you guys can help, as apart from changing the master cylinder, I'm out of ideas and out of my :censored: mind.

Many thanks for reading.

Bob.

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Hi Bob,

It sounds like you have a severe airlock in there.

if you have tried above the maximum pressure, it would sound like there is more to it.

I would say you should take the cap off and drain it from the top down and then bleed it further.then refill the system and bleed again.

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My first thought would be the master cylinder is faulty. Unless the circuit is interrupted you should never need to bleed the clutch system in normal use. As previously said unless the internals of the master are fully returned new fluid cannot enter the system. Unfortunately the plastic cylinders used in the modern cars don't have an internal return spring, so the problem is accentuated. Change the master cylinder. Pressure bleeding is not recommended (nor needed) for hydraulic systems using a concentric slave cylinder

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Thanks guys, for your prompt response, namely - 'Jeebowhite', Dan62 and 'flying Clutchman'. :) It's great to know I can always get help here.

I've taken your combined advice on board and will be ordering a replacement master cylinder and then it will be down to the nitty gritty. If any one can offer any tips and advice on how best to tackle this job, I would again be very grateful. (My Haynes manual leaves a lot to be desired).

Once again, many thanks for all your help. I will post the results as soon as I've done it. :driving:(weather permitting) :rolleyes:

Cheers,

Bob.

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Hi Folks,

Well, I finally managed to fit a replacement Master cylinder and what a pig of a job that was :angry: . Now though the problem is still not fixed, because when I try to refill the clutch system with fluid it just disappears somewhere. I have checked under the pedal and in the engine compartment and also under the car but no sign of any leaks. The bleed screw is fully open but no fluid is coming out, it's as if the fluid isn't reaching the Slave Cylinder at all. So where can it be going I have now put nearly 1ltr of fluid through but no pressure resistance from the clutch pedal, it just drops to the floor when pressed. (the Breaks are still fine and the fluid in the reservoir never drops below half way).

How much fluid should it take to refill the clutch system and could you please tell me what this drum shaped object is on the high pressure pipe (see attached photo)

post-34595-0-57531000-1395162797_thumb.j

Your continued help and advice is much appreciated,

Bob. :wacko:

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the item in question is the clutch damper, it's just a chamber to stop vibration, ther's nothing inside. If I remember correctly the pipe into the master has a small top hat shaped seal on it. That's almost certainly flicked off and fluid will be leaking outside the cylinder

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Remove pipe from slave cylinder hold ur finger over it while someone pumps pedal see if any pressure builds up

Sent from my iPhone using Ford OC

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the item in question is the clutch damper, it's just a chamber to stop vibration, ther's nothing inside. If I remember correctly the pipe into the master has a small top hat shaped seal on it. That's almost certainly flicked off and fluid will be leaking outside the cylinder

Hi again, and many thanks for your input..

When I removed the high pressure pipe from the old MC I found later that it had left that top hat seal still inside. I managed to hook it out and fitted it onto the pipe before inserting it but there is still a slight drip there so I guess it's not in properly.

More problems though, This morning I checked under the car for signs of leaks, there was some drips but nothing serious. However, when I checked the reservoir it had drained completely. This is new, never happened before up to changing the Master Cylinder which shows no leaks except for a slight leak (just a drip) from where the high pressure pipe connects to it.

My thoughts are that I might have blown a seal in the Vacuum Servo behind the reservoir and the fluid is disappearing into there. I am pretty sure it's not going into the Bell housing as no fluid seems to be even reaching the Slave Cylinder. What are your thoughts please.

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\well you can tell quite easily because the reservoir is split internally into two chambers. You will see the clutch take off on the side. You should be able to see through the plastic if this level has fallen down to the pipe take off. If it hasn't then you're right, but the two systems work seperately.

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Hi again, and many thanks for your input..

When I removed the high pressure pipe from the old MC I found later that it had left that top hat seal still inside. I managed to hook it out and fitted it onto the pipe before inserting it but there is still a slight drip there so I guess it's not in properly.

More problems though, This morning I checked under the car for signs of leaks, there was some drips but nothing serious. However, when I checked the reservoir it had drained completely. This is new, never happened before up to changing the Master Cylinder which shows no leaks except for a slight leak (just a drip) from where the high pressure pipe connects to it.

My thoughts are that I might have blown a seal in the Vacuum Servo behind the reservoir and the fluid is disappearing into there. I am pretty sure it's not going into the Bell housing as no fluid seems to be even reaching the Slave Cylinder. What are your thoughts please.

UPDATE;

I think I found the culprit, there has been a leak from where the high pressure pipe fits into the MC and secured by a spring clip. Apparently this had been leaking unseen down in-between the bulkhead and the sound muffling material and dripping out under the car. Although I thought I had secured the pipe in place with the spring clip apparently the little rubber top hat type grommet/seal that fits on the end of the pipe had not seated properly.

My query is that should this top hat type grommet just fit on the end of the pipe or should the pipe come right through it. I hope that makes sense to you. Unfortunately there is no way of knowing as it was left stuck inside the old MC when I removed it.

If I can get this to seal properly I think my problem should be resolved. I am pretty sure now it is not going into the Vacuum Servo.

Cheers,

Bob.

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Yes that's what I thought. The seal fits over the pipe and the top of the plastic bit so that the end of the pipe is flush with the seal. These are a common source of anguish. Be careful not to lose it Fords don't sell them seperately from the pipe. You can however buy exactly the same part for a transit (yes they fit!)

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Yes that's what I thought. The seal fits over the pipe and the top of the plastic bit so that the end of the pipe is flush with the seal. These are a common source of anguish. Be careful not to lose it Fords don't sell them seperately from the pipe. You can however buy exactly the same part for a transit (yes they fit!)

Hi friend,

Sorry to be a pain but I'm still not clear on your comment, "The seal fits over the pipe and the top of the plastic bit so that the end of the pipe is flush with the seal", If I don't push the pipe right through it it doesn't reach the plastic bit. The first time I fitted the seal I just placed it on the end of the pipe and pushed the pipe in as far as I could but it wouldn't seal properly. So after your reply I pushed the seal on so the pipe protruded about a 1/4 inch this gave a better seal but it was still weeping.

The problem seemed to be that I couldn't push the pipe in all the way due to the seal now showing a slight bulge at the end which I believe was stopping it going into it's socket all the way. So I'm a bit stumped by not understanding what you mean by being flush with the end of the pipe.

Would it be better if I pushed the seal all the way in on it's own, then try to push the pipe into it in situ ? The only thing is that is similar to the way I first put it in just placing it on the end of the pipe but it leaked a lot. I know that when I first tried to remove the pipe from the old MC, I had a hell of a job pulling it out (I had released the spring clip first by the way). Unfortunately when I pulled the pipe out to enable removal of the MC, the top-hat seal stayed inside so I don't know it's real position on the pipe.

So to summarise;

  • Should the pipe protrude through the top-hat seal or remain inside it ?
  • Would it be better to push the seal home first all the way, then push the pipe in after ?

​Sorry to be such a dumbo about this but a simple thing becomes very complicated when your unfamiliar with it.

Thank you very, very much for your help and patience.

Best regards,

Bob. :rolleyes:

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The seal MUST be fitted to the pipe first. On the end of the pipe you have a tapered plastic fitting. The bottom of the seal should seat over the end of the plastic fitting into the small groove

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The seal MUST be fitted to the pipe first. On the end of the pipe you have a tapered plastic fitting. The bottom of the seal should seat over the end of the plastic fitting into the small groove

OK thanks,

Just one final question then, I have finally got it to seal now with no more leaks. Now I'm having trouble bleeding the system. There is a trickle coming from the bleed nipple but still no pressure under the pedal. I have pumped about a 1/4 litre through but still no clutch action.

I am nearly there now, so is it just a case of keep bleeding, (I can't see any air bubbles coming out which I thought would have been quite a few)

Any ideas please,

Cheers my friend

Bob.

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the seal fits with the wide end onthe plastic fitting. Open the bleed nipple and (making sure the pedal is fully up) leave for a few minutes. Make sure the rearvoir is kept popped up. Close the bleed nipple and pump the pedal until you get some pressure. Now bleed in the normal way.

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OK thanks,

Just one final question then, I have finally got it to seal now with no more leaks. Now I'm having trouble bleeding the system. There is a trickle coming from the bleed nipple but still no pressure under the pedal. I have pumped about a 1/4 litre through but still no clutch action.

I am nearly there now, so is it just a case of keep bleeding, (I can't see any air bubbles coming out which I thought would have been quite a few)

Any ideas please,

Cheers my friend

Bob.

Hello again,

Bad weather stopped play for a while but now I'm back to my problems again. I don't know what else to do but I still can not get any fluid flow through to the slave bleed nipple.

The pedal is up and fluid must be flowing through the master cylinder because that was where the high pressure gland was leaking from. As previously advised, I have pumped the pedal until I was blue in the face :cry: but still no flow and there's no pressure under the pedal yet. It's as if there is a blockage or serious air lock stopping it coming through to the slave cylinder even with the bleed screw completely removed, and even with pressure behind it.

I have included a photo here showing the bleed nipple assembly as there appears to be a different one shown in the Haynes manual. Could some crud have blocked this T-piece assembly, and if so how can I clear it. I am completely stumped now, so any help on what steps I can take next to get over this would be greatly appreciated.

Thank you my friend for all your help so far :)

post-34595-0-27012900-1396195853_thumb.j,

Cheers

Bob.

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The haynes manual probably shows the 5 speed which is totally different. You can unclip the t-piece to check it is clear quite easily

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The haynes manual probably shows the 5 speed which is totally different. You can unclip the t-piece to check it is clear quite easily

Thanks for your prompt reply. How do I unclip it, I can't feel anything underneath where it goes into the slave cylinder. do you mean removing the T-piece or uncoupling the pipe from where it enters the T-piece.

Cheers,

Bob.

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there is a clip holding it to the top of the slave cylinder and a clip (which you should be able to see ) holding the t-piece to the pipe.Before I go any further I should tell you about a recent experience I had with one of these. Having fitted a new clutch/dmf and cylinders to a mondeo 6 months before the customer complained that she had lost pedal pressure. As I saw a drip of fluid underneath I concluded the slave cylinder must have failed and fitted a new one under warranty. Having put it all back together (6 hours later) I found I was unable to bleed the clutch properly. Having closed the bleed nipple I decided to pump continuously to see if I could get a little bit of pressure. No I couldn't!. When I came and looked in the engine bay I saw that fluid was dribbling down the front of the gearbox. I discovered to my horror and amazement that the bleed nipple was allowing fluid though even when closed! Fords do not sell the t-piece seperately so I had to buy a complete pipe for £63. I natrually only fitted the t-piece. To Make sure this isn't happening to you, top the fluid up to the brim, close the bleed nipple and pump the pedal about 30 times. Check the fluid level. It shouldn't have moved.

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there is a clip holding it to the top of the slave cylinder and a clip (which you should be able to see ) holding the t-piece to the pipe.Before I go any further I should tell you about a recent experience I had with one of these. Having fitted a new clutch/dmf and cylinders to a mondeo 6 months before the customer complained that she had lost pedal pressure. As I saw a drip of fluid underneath I concluded the slave cylinder must have failed and fitted a new one under warranty. Having put it all back together (6 hours later) I found I was unable to bleed the clutch properly. Having closed the bleed nipple I decided to pump continuously to see if I could get a little bit of pressure. No I couldn't!. When I came and looked in the engine bay I saw that fluid was dribbling down the front of the gearbox. I discovered to my horror and amazement that the bleed nipple was allowing fluid though even when closed! Fords do not sell the t-piece seperately so I had to buy a complete pipe for £63. I natrually only fitted the t-piece. To Make sure this isn't happening to you, top the fluid up to the brim, close the bleed nipple and pump the pedal about 30 times. Check the fluid level. It shouldn't have moved.

Hi again, :)

Well, today I did some back tracking from the T-piece and undid the gland further back along the pipe and found that the fluid was not even reaching that point. Now it is pointing back to the master cylinder as fluid was getting to it but non coming out on the high pressure side. So it would appear that even though the pedal was up, the piston must be jammed closed resulting in no flow.

Having discovered this I obtained another master cylinder and will be fitting it tomorrow, i will let you know the results.

I have a question regarding fitting this replacement; what is the best sequence of assembly, should I bolt the Master in place first with the white plastic retaining clip that goes into the pedal fitted to the push rod and then fit the pedal after. The last time I did it I tried to fit the whole assembly as one and I had a hell of a job getting the fixing bolts in . As a result I might have damaged it causing me all this grief. :iim:

One more thing, what type of bleed screw is it that fits in the T-piece. It is all plastic with a little rubber insert at the end. The one in a 5 speed model is a standard steel one with a pointed end, which I don't think will do the job.

Many thanks for your help,

Bob.

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Last question first. The bleed nipple is defferent from the 5-speed. It's not available on it's own, it's not available with the t-piece, it's only available with a complete pipe right back to the master cylinder! As far as the fitting sequence, I can't really remember (don't often get mondeo master cylinders). Generally though with Ford cylinders get the cylinder in first. Make sure the fluid is coming through the cylinder before you push in the outlet pipe.

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Last question first. The bleed nipple is defferent from the 5-speed. It's not available on it's own, it's not available with the t-piece, it's only available with a complete pipe right back to the master cylinder! As far as the fitting sequence, I can't really remember (don't often get mondeo master cylinders). Generally though with Ford cylinders get the cylinder in first. Make sure the fluid is coming through the cylinder before you push in the outlet pipe.

Well, finally it's good news. The clutch is now working :driving: but I still think it needs a bit more bleeding, also I would be much more confident if I could get a replacement bleed screw.

However,

I think I could mark this post as 'solved' but before I do can you confirm for me what colour the 'clutch pedal position sensor' is. I removed two from the pedals, one red and one green and I think the clutch pedal one is the green one. Stupidly :whistling: I forgot to make a note when I first removed them and I've had them off so long I have forgot which way round they go. The red one is on the same loom as the brake light switch. So I believe the green one belongs to the clutch, would you agree ? :unsure:

Cheers,

Bob.

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Well, finally it's good news. The clutch is now working :driving: but I still think it needs a bit more bleeding, also I would be much more confident if I could get a replacement bleed screw.

However,

I think I could mark this post as 'solved' but before I do can you confirm for me what colour the 'clutch pedal position sensor' is. I removed two from the pedals, one red and one green and I think the clutch pedal one is the green one. Stupidly :whistling: I forgot to make a note when I first removed them and I've had them off so long I have forgot which way round they go. The red one is on the same loom as the brake light switch. So I believe the green one belongs to the clutch, would you agree ? :unsure:

Cheers,

Bob.

Hi there

I was hoping to get one more reply from you before we signed off completely. I hope I haven't offended you in some way.

I would like to thank you for all the advice you gave me over the past weeks, it is really appreciated.

Very many thanks,

Bob.

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looking at it its shows red to clutch

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