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#1 captkirk

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Posted 08 May 2014 - 11:58 AM

I'm wondering if anyone else has had the same problem, I recently bought my  Ford Mondeo 1.8 Diesel TDCi Titanium X  5dr. By the way it's the best car I have had and I've had a few, but everytime after travelling approx 1/2 mile from cold start, the engine starts to splutter slightly and knock as if the automatic choke stays on whilst revving you can hardly notice it but when staying at same speed, for example 20 mph in second or 30 mph in 3rd gear, as when in traffic it is very much more noticable.

I have taken car back to dealer, they checked it over and said it is "diesel knock" which is acceptable because of age, mileage and general wear and tear and because the onboard computer is not recognising a fault they can't actually fix it.

 

Car is on '59' plate 42,000 miles.

Thanks in advance



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#2 jeebowhite

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Posted 08 May 2014 - 02:40 PM

I would hardly say 42k is a reasonable amount of miles for them to disregard the engine knock! I would write to them and explain you are dissatisfied with their answer and you would like to know exactly what is wrong and how much its going to cost to replace it. You could then use the Sales of Goods act to query that you are dissatisfied and want to work towards a fix.

 

I am not overly familiar with diesel knock, but I have a 57 plate 1.8tdci with 111 on the clock, and I dont believe I have any diesel knock.



#3 captkirk

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Posted 08 May 2014 - 04:10 PM

Thanks for reply, I have aready wrote to them (The Car people) and they replied with warranting my fuel injectors for 12 month, because I had test done on injectors which cost £200, which came back as ok, they informed me that the mondeo tdci 1.8 titanium x

uses the transit connect engine, which is noisy as a matter of fact and because when they put the engine through diagnostics and nothing flags up, "they can't fix it if it's not broke scenario"



#4 BOF

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Posted 08 May 2014 - 06:39 PM

...but everytime after travelling approx 1/2 mile from cold start, the engine starts to splutter slightly and knock as if the automatic choke stays on whilst revving you can hardly notice it but when staying at same speed, for example 20 mph in second or 30 mph in 3rd gear, as when in traffic it is very much more noticable. 

 

So, it happens on every cold start, irrespective of whether it is after a pretty cold night, or a warmer morning?

 

By 'while revving' presumably you mean 'while accelerating' rather than 'at high revs'?

 

I have taken car back to dealer, they checked it over and said it is "diesel knock" which is acceptable because of age, mileage and general wear and tear and because the onboard computer is not recognising a fault they can't actually fix it.

 

Oh, that really is an unacceptable attitude. Did they actually tell you, when they were selling it to you 'don't expect it to work, it is a crap car and it is worn out' - of course they didn't!

 

And this bit about the on-board computer; yes, many things show up as error codes, but not everything. What they are really saying is 'we are not competent to do anything beyond the obvious (and it is your problem that we are not competent)'.

 

This is just wrong.

 

Car is on '59' plate 42,000 miles.

 

You'll find that there are people with 150 - 250 k miles on their clocks here, so their argument that the car has done too many miles - at 42k - to work is laughable. 

 

...warranting my fuel injectors for 12 month, because I had test done on injectors which cost £200...

 

That's just weird; you've got a problem, you've paid for some work to be done on something that didn't turn out to be the problem, and they've responded by giving you a warranty on the thing that wasn't the problem.

 

Presumably, you took the car to some independent garage (or maybe Ford?) and it was their advice to get the injectors tested? Or, did you suggest to them to test the injectors? Was there any discussion of the other problems that it could be?

 

 

the mondeo tdci 1.8 titanium x uses the transit connect engine,

 

There is engine sharing all across the Ford range. You could easily say that the Transit Connect uses the Mondeo engine and it would be equally correct - probably more so if the Mondeo got the engine first, which it probably did. 

 

Any argument that 'this engine is noisy because it is used in the Transit Connect', which is what they seem to be saying, is quite interesting because

  • the noisiness, or otherwise, is quite dependant on the installation and the sound insulation and deadening thereof, so the argument is flawed
  • you are not complaining about engine noise, so the argument is not relevant to the point at issue, that of the fault which exists with the car
  • if you can get them to put it in writing you'll have a good case in court, because of the above two points - this alone isn't enough to win the case, but it will make them look very stupid, which always helps

put the engine through diagnostics and nothing flags up, "they can't fix it if it's not broke scenario"

 

Nonsense; it is broke, just it is broke without a diagnostic fault code. They can't (or maybe won't) fix it because they are useless and won't try. Or, possibly, they know that it will cost them money, and they are not happy about that prospect.

 

I've mentioned a court case - it is probably undesirable to actually go to court, but it helps to be prepared. A conversation with trading standards to find out where they think you stand and maybe a stiff solicitor's letter could well be in order as could be mention of rejecting the car, after finding out what chance you have of getting the money back that you have spent.

 

As to the real fault (which is probably irrelevant, because dealing with the legal and organisational aspects is probably what counts), the stuff that comes under the heading 'the usual suspects' for a diesel, for example:

  • fuel filter
  • fuel pump
  • injectors (should be able to eliminate those, after the testing that has already been done)
  • egr
  • early stage of DMF failure

are all open to question, but I think I'd have to add:

  • ECU cal
  • temperature sensor

and I'd have to ask about the service history (oil change and when the fuel filter was last changed and was a quality part used). I think you could also ask whether it is any better on 'Premium' fuel (Shell Vpower/BP Ultimate), although it clearly a car that only runs cleanly on premium fuel would be unacceptable.



#5 captkirk

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Posted 08 May 2014 - 07:43 PM

Thanks for reply BOF

 

So, it happens on every cold start, irrespective of whether it is after a pretty cold night, or a warmer morning?

By 'while revving' presumably you mean 'while accelerating' rather than 'at high revs'?

 

There is no problem at all until after the first half mile or so, then it just starts spluttering and knocking and continues throughout the day, I can leave car for a couple of hours, then when I start engine it immediately makes knocking sound and spluttering.

 

...warranting my fuel injectors for 12 month, because I had test done on injectors which cost £200...

Someone suggested to me that it could be the injectors, so i had them tested.Different people have said it could be a number of things, but it would be costly as it's a case of elimination.

 

Have just had full service and M.O.T. done, nothing ary there,  use premium fuel all the time but to no avail (BP and shell)

Have had fuel cleaner added  no result.



#6 jeebowhite

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Posted 12 May 2014 - 03:01 PM

That was a truely laughable response from the garage. I dont know for definite but I do not believe its the same transit engine, but I may be wrong.

 

I would ask how they diagnose the engine, if its a trip computer diagnostic, then it will only pull about 20% of any number of error codes on the car, it really needs to be plugged into a PC and checked. Even using FORSCAN will give you the best part of all the error messages, but I would ask exactly what diagnostics occurred.

Sounds like they havent got a clue at best.



#7 captkirk

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Posted 14 May 2014 - 10:08 PM

UPDATE * First of all thanks to everyone who has taken the time to post there replies, I have sent letter of complaint to the finance company stating the sale of goods act 1979

 

The Sale of Goods Act lays down several conditions that all vehicles sold by a trader
to a consumer must meet. The vehicle must be:

As Described

This refers to any advert, paperwork, signage or verbal description
made by you.

Of Satisfactory Quality

This covers minor and cosmetic defects as well as substantial
problems. It also means that products must last a reasonable time.
But it doesn't give your customer any rights if a fault was obvious or pointed out
to them at point of sale.

Fit for Purpose

This covers not only the obvious purpose of a vehicle such as towing
a caravan but also any purpose your customer queried and has been given assurances about.

If you sell a vehicle to a customer that doesn't conform to the above conditions you
are legally obliged to resolve the problem if they seek redress.

The Act covers new and second-hand vehicles however if you sell to another trader
under 'trade' terms, their only entitlement to a refund is if the vehicle isn't
as described'.

 

Because I made the car dealer aware of the said problems before 6 months, the finance company are investigating my complaint and are acting on my behalf.

I will update again when I have more information.

Thanks again for all the advice.



#8 FOCA

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Posted 14 May 2014 - 11:17 PM

The knock and spluttering is likeley to be the EGR valve opening - when it opens burn't exhaust fumes are injected into the inlet, that also contaminate the inlet manifold with carbon,

 

A cleanout of the inlet manifold would be a worthwhile thing

 

Fitting a solid EGR blanking plate could eliminate the "splutter and knock"

 

another thing that may help is getting the engine terracleaned

 

Some fuel contains detergents, adding this (or injector cleaner) may also help, a good long run, and an "italian tune up", can really help - modern diesels don't like city driving/ short journeys/ sedate driving - especially if it is done repeatedly

 

EDIT - there is much about the things i have mentioned on the forum/ site



#9 BOF

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Posted 15 May 2014 - 07:55 AM

The knock and spluttering is likeley to be the EGR valve opening - when it opens burn't exhaust fumes are injected into the inlet, that also contaminate the inlet manifold with carbon,

 

That seems to be a very plausible suggestion. It seems likely that once the temperature is up enough for the EGR valve to be open, you've got the problem, and when it isn't open you don't have the problem.

 

Now quite sure why EGR, seemingly, causes this problem on your car, and doesn't on other cars...

 

I'd want to check, or have checked, that there aren't any leaks in the various bits of tubing that take the gasses to the inlet. The EGR valve itself may not be clean, but I'm struggling a bit to work out how that would cause this problem (in that people do block the valves and have the car run better, so I'm not quite getting why a partly blocked one would be worse... BTW, I'm not sure if blocking the EGR on a 1.8 Mk IV causes 'dashboard blinkenlights' eventually; it does on a 2.0, but the 1.8 is different). 

 

But that's not your problem, it is the problem of the seller (ie, they've got to give you a car that works; the danger is that if you in any way 'mod' the car before they get it to work, they'll just blame everything, from tyre wear to the pollen count on what you've done).



#10 captkirk

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Posted 20 May 2014 - 05:51 PM

UPDATE: Took car back to the car people today, was there for over 2 hours for them to say that there is a problem, but needs more investigation, but because I don't have extended warranty, they will have to have meeting to discuss this, sdorry but enough is enough, have now left it in hands of finance company for now, will wait for outcome of that, if they do not get car fixed, Trading standards and legal action to follow.

Will give other updates as to issue and decisions



#11 captkirk

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Posted 28 May 2014 - 05:38 PM

Further Update: Finance Company are now in the process of getting an independent assessment on the car, which they say once the report is back they will act accordingly.

Will update further when more news :mellow:  :) 



#12 captkirk

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Posted 30 May 2014 - 08:21 AM

Further Update: Engineer has just completed his diagnostic  and assessment of the car and he said the cause is faulty injectors, so it looks like I'm going to get my car running the way it is supposed to



#13 jeebowhite

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Posted 30 May 2014 - 10:48 AM

Result! that just saved you the best part of a grand!



#14 mixmasterlooney

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Posted 30 May 2014 - 06:48 PM

That's great news

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