2006 1.6 Ti Vct Cam Variator Problems.

[Effingfocus]

...or simply an air leak.

[jimjamyaha]

I doubt if a new belt would cause any problems as they can't be tightened incorrectly as its all done by a pre-tensioned belt tensioner pulley. If it's running okay and you are getting no warning lights or loss of power then there's not much to worry about - just turn the radio up a bit! You'll soon know when it's going wrong by the loss of power and warning light. You won't do any damage to the engine either.

Hey, from looking at a few other threads and asking some Ford Tech's it looks like that it does make sense if the rattle could be also caused by a new cam belt.

http://www.fordownersclub.com/forums/topic/49870-engine-management-light-issue-after-new-cam-belt-fitted/page-2

If the correct locking tool wasn't used or if any of the pulleys were not pinned correctly the timing could be out... Esp if a place didn't use IDS to confirm correct timing.

Not enough to cause an EML or rough running, but enough to be incorrect. (Post above did have EML but OK running)

Going to get the timing checked out by Ford tech with ids tests and a scope display.

Spiro's, did you get yours sorted? Above post may be of use?

[Effingfocus]

I don't think the post In that link is about a rattle after having a cam belt replaced, more about the eml coming on after cam belt replacement and more than likely due to the correct tools not being used to lock the cams and variators in the correct position while the belt was replaced. You can get away with marking cams and pulleys with a blob of tippex on a 'normal' DOHC engine (I've done literally hundreds) but not on the Ti VCT engine because each cam has a position sensor and the exact position of each cam at differing engine speeds is very critical.

[Spiros]

Well , the dealership service dynes and by no means accept that the problem might have occured by their fault when changing the cam belt , they say that they have used the correct locking tool , but after all these i dont really trust them so i asked for the timing to be checked and they said that they need 90 euros ...

How exactly can someone check the cam timing ?

Anyway another question , the oil that is in the engine is Castrol Edge 5w30 which is not A1 but rather A3 do you think that it plays a role ?

[jimjamyaha]

The oil change could have also caused the issue - if a bit of gunk has got into the cam variators.

In terms of reading the timing they can do this using the Ford IDS system, which can read lots of information and also run correct tests on timing.

This is something that should have been done to verify that the cambelt was locked and therefore the timing was correct after the change. I would ask them to provide proof that they have checked the timing properly in this manner.

I would push that this has *only* cropped up after the cambelt and service.

Well , the dealership service dynes and by no means accept that the problem might have occured by their fault when changing the cam belt , they say that they have used the correct locking tool , but after all these i dont really trust them so i asked for the timing to be checked and they said that they need 90 euros ...

How exactly can someone check the cam timing ?

Anyway another question , the oil that is in the engine is Castrol Edge 5w30 which is not A1 but rather A3 do you think that it plays a role ?

[artscot79]

go get a brand new ecoboost and open the bonnet they all rattle its injector slap

[Spiros]

If it really is injector slap then why did it start right after the cambelt change in me and jim too ?

btw i just got my drivers licence :D

[artscot79]

All ti vct and ecoboost have the same noise its likely that it wasn't noticeable at first my mates was the same they stripped it down redid the belt tensioners etc had the timing checked then had the same noise the ford master tech came down and pulled another car off the forecourt and a new car and started them up and true enough all had the same noise the type of oil makes a difference ford oil doesn't do it as bad

[jimjamyaha]

go get a brand new ecoboost and open the bonnet they all rattle its injector slap

Let's be clear here - artscot78 - are you talking specifically about the general tappety noise that most people know about and MK 2.5 Foci and later have an engine cover for (I have heard lots of Focuses sound tappety - which as you mentioned is just a design issue) or the 1-3 startup rattle that sounds very loud?

If the former can we *stop* mentioning this as we are specifically talking about a loud rattle that occurs on startup for 1-3 seconds (or in some more unfortunate cases is continuous alongside an EML, and a noise like a diesel engine) and which has been confirmed by many other posters to be some aspects of the ti-vct system failing and reverting to non ti vct operation. These have all been fixed by replacement of the faulty section of the ti vct system or an oil change.

I have never heard any newer ecoboost models exhibit this 1-3 second startup rattle behaviour from new.

Issues potentially causing the behaviour

• The cam variators are worn (the inlet (inlet pulley as one Ford described it as) and/or exhaust) and this is revealed by oil pressure is not reaching the variators at startup for the first 1-3 seconds, when they will be run without oil pressure (system states that under 2,400 rpm these are driven in a certain way and that over that rpm they are driven differently)
• Low oil level or incorrect oil
• Broken/faulty solenoid sensors for tivct
• Incorrect timing

This has been confirmed by the experiences of others on this forum, my local indie garage and 2 Ford garages I work with.

[jimjamyaha]

If it really is injector slap then why did it start right after the cambelt change in me and jim too ?

btw i just got my drivers licence :D

Congratulation Spiros on getting your driving licence!

Agree - it seems odd that it happened after a cambelt change. In my case I think the culprit was an oil change carried out as part of the service at the same time. I'm happy that the actual timing on my engine is fine.

In your case as you've now got an EML light on something else could also be going on either as an addition or a separate issue.

We are specifically indeed talking about a 1-3 startup rattle and *not* general tappety sounds that these ti vct and later ecoboost engines are known to make as part of normal operations (especially before they've warmed up).

[jimjamyaha]

I thought I would try a quick solution as my engine has covered 136,000+ miles and despite being serviced at some Ford places pretty sure has not been flushed either with flushing oil or any other process. (Flushing was originally recommended for these as the first tivct system - not sure if required on the ecoboost later follow-on models).

1) Put some Wynn's engine cleaner in, idled for 20 mins (selected as this is gentle, proven to clean and contains no harsh solvents)

2) Changed oil, draining for 30 minutes using correct Ford spec (and actually over and above than required) oil

3) Changed oil filter (as part of above process)

On startup there was a little bit of rattle for about 4 seconds (more subdued than normal) as the engine oil pressurised and since then there has been absolutely *no* 1-3 second startup rattle for the past couple of weeks. Before this it was doing it every startup now. Some power has come back going up hills, which I didn't even know was missing - which has been measured (not just placebo).

I think that in my case some oil channels that were perhaps gunked-up in the ti vct system and have been unblocked.

I spoke to a couple of garages who confirmed that it was likely that the variators were still worn - but that it could also be that the flush has cleaned out some gunk and that either way it's a good result.

[jimjamyaha]

All ti vct and ecoboost have the same noise its likely that it wasn't noticeable at first my mates was the same they stripped it down redid the belt tensioners etc had the timing checked then had the same noise the ford master tech came down and pulled another car off the forecourt and a new car and started them up and true enough all had the same noise the type of oil makes a difference ford oil doesn't do it as bad

Interesting you mention the oil - as my car has been using ford spec oil (whatever the 3 local dealers get in) for the past few years and have not had this problem until about 2 years ago - but it could be oil-system/gunk related as I seemed to have resolved it by cleaning the oil system and then adding high-spec but ford compliant oil to the system.

I'm surprised that a new car would make this noise and be considered acceptable... I wouldn't touch it with a barge pole if it made this noise on startup. It certainly seems that most cases on this forum where this noise has occurred it has been sorted through sorting out a timing issue with the belt or by replacing a section of the overall ti vct system - i.e. it's a fault an not normal behaviour.

[jimjamyaha]

I don't think the post In that link is about a rattle after having a cam belt replaced, more about the eml coming on after cam belt replacement and more than likely due to the correct tools not being used to lock the cams and variators in the correct position while the belt was replaced. You can get away with marking cams and pulleys with a blob of tippex on a 'normal' DOHC engine (I've done literally hundreds) but not on the Ti VCT engine because each cam has a position sensor and the exact position of each cam at differing engine speeds is very critical.

Ah - yes sorry, see what you mean. Didn't mean to conflate the issue in the past post - Just thought Spiro's EML light issue could therefore be a timing issue - and that if this was the case then damage or other issues *could* have been done to the cam variations or other sections of the ti vct system, which would then be causing the startup rattle as a symptom. Or, of course could be a separate issue in its own right.

[artscot79]

If the issue is oil blockage a flush and good oil will fix it if the variators are indeed worn then nothing will stop it other than having them replaced the light is usually the final step where the variator is passed it

[Spiros]

I thought I would try a quick solution as my engine has covered 136,000+ miles and despite being serviced at some Ford places pretty sure has not been flushed either with flushing oil or any other process. (Flushing was originally recommended for these as the first tivct system - not sure if required on the ecoboost later follow-on models).

1) Put some Wynn's engine cleaner in, idled for 20 mins (selected as this is gentle, proven to clean and contains no harsh solvents)

2) Changed oil, draining for 30 minutes using correct Ford spec (and actually over and above than required) oil

3) Changed oil filter (as part of above process)

On startup there was a little bit of rattle for about 4 seconds (more subdued than normal) as the engine oil pressurised and since then there has been absolutely *no* 1-3 second startup rattle for the past couple of weeks. Before this it was doing it every startup now. Some power has come back going up hills, which I didn't even know was missing - which has been measured (not just placebo).

I think that in my case some oil channels that were perhaps gunked-up in the ti vct system and have been unblocked.

I spoke to a couple of garages who confirmed that it was likely that the variators were still worn - but that it could also be that the flush has cleaned out some gunk and that either way it's a good result.

Jim that's great news ! I am happy you solved your problem :) I am going to try this too with Wynns or Liqui Moly and ford oil and filter this time ! Fingers crossed !

Ah a little question regarding the oil change since it will be my first time being actually under the car what are the suggested jacking and jackstand points ? Also i got spare a magnetic oil plug which has a copper washer in it , it the correct size but do you think that i might run into oil leak or something for not putting the ford oem plug ? the new i have looks like this

Also Jim did you use the Wynns Motor cleaner or the Wynns Engine Flush ???

[jimjamyaha]

Hi Spiros,

There has been one more rattle since I did the flush and refill (so I think the variator is still worn) but before it had started doing it every time.

It was the first time under my car too. In the end I didn't jack it, just parked on the flat and slid underneath - as could only find sill jacking points and didn't want to ruin the suspension by using the wrong jack point on this.

I have no experience with copper washers or replacement plugs (I'm sure other have)- I just used what was there, but replaced the o-ring seal.

One thing to note was that I used a torque wrench to remove and refit the oil sump plug to 28nm (manual stated spec).

You'll also want a rubber strap wrench to remove the oil filter (can be re-added by hand).

I used the Wynns engine flush for petrol engines and let it idle for 20 minutes, then drained all the oil for 30 minutes after that.

I'm still going to get the car timing checked on it's next major service (via Ford IDS software) just to check that nothing small is still amiss... still do find it odd that it happened after a cambelt change.

[jimjamyaha]

Update - since topping up the oil a bit further (was just under min mark) to the mid-point the variation has started rattling again on startup a bit more (but not as bad as before yet).

[jimjamyaha]

Just got this nugget from a local Ford Dealer (non-main). "The cam timing cannot be checked using ids only manualy,I doubt it will be out as there are two cam sensors and a crank sensor which would have picked it up and would not be running correctly.Quite often it is caused by the pulley being disturbed and we replace a few pulleys (usually inlet)to cure the rattle."

[Effingfocus]

Seems to me that when you get the dreaded occasional rattle on start up and/or the EML light/loss of power, all the oil/filter/flushes/belt changes in the world aren't going to make any difference so like me, you'll just have to bite the bullet and change the variators. JFDI!

[Spiros]

On 21/12/2015 at 5:21 PM, jimjamyaha said:

Just got this nugget from a local Ford Dealer (non-main). "The cam timing cannot be checked using ids only manualy,I doubt it will be out as there are two cam sensors and a crank sensor which would have picked it up and would not be running correctly.Quite often it is caused by the pulley being disturbed and we replace a few pulleys (usually inlet)to cure the rattle."

Hey jim is it easy to contact him and ask him which exact parts do they change ?

[jimjamyaha]

On 02/02/2016 at 4:31 PM, Spiros said:

Hey jim is it easy to contact him and ask him which exact parts do they change ?

Hey, Google carters ford Sheffield and you can use the form there.

[focus_sport2006]

I had a variator fault or something like, I cleaned the sensors out, did an oil flush and change and the start up rattles have gone and no faults. Guess I was lucky.

Sent from my LG-D855 using Tapatalk

[artscot79]

you never had a variator fault then oil flushes wont cure that and you may find it comes back

[ChrisM41]

Quote

 

I know this is an old thread, but these issues still come up. My car has suffered from a stutter/hesitation since I got it in feb 2016. After much frustration and numerous part changes it turns out the problem was with the VCT system.

The issue was the exhaust VCT solenoid allowing the timing to jump around. After replacing it for a much newer revised part (from a later model) the stutter has pretty much gone. I suspect there is some wear to the variator now, preventing it from being as smooth as it could be, but the main problem has gone.

There were no OBD errors for nearly 10 months, then it started with cam slow response errors, which finally pointed to the likely problem. So it quite possible for the car to be almost undriveable and not have any errors reported at all.