P0428 Dtc After Dpf Removal

[Dee_82]

Hi folks, I've been getting this p0428 DTC
Catalyst Temperature Sensor High Input bank1

It sits on the forward part of what is the DPF / cat

Just now its sitting steady at 212f regardless of how long I've been running it so I'm fairly confidant the sensor is buggered, in the past it dropped directly to 110f , again, solid no fluctuations, at that temp it doesn't throw up a DTC

So, firsty, negative effects of having this sensor reporting temp too high?
Secondly, can I manually "fix" this?


Any suggestions?

[Dee_82]

Just a single cheeky wee bump on this.

I also have some data from a month before the DPF was gutted clearly showing temperature fluctuations of several hundred degrees, so it was clearly working a month before it had work on it....

[artscot79]

You have no come back as the process is illegal they get out of it by saying that the customer requested it and they fulfilled the request given what youve done is illegal you have nowhere to go if they refuse to repair it you can certainly try

The sensor should have been tricked into thinking the dpf is there hopefully lenny will pop on as he knows better than me

[Dee_82]

is it illegal? I know it wont pass an MOT if I remove it completely, an if you drive without an MOT and insurance that's illegal but illegal to have it gutted?

This is a service advertised by literally hundreds of garages, which I think comes under an invitation to purchases an not just doing as I ask, I cant imagine they can get away with doing something that's directly against the law.

The temp sensor is clearly not working and I cant see why it wouldn't work even with it gutted unless it damaged.

The other part to this is that the car appears to work fine so is that sensor purely related to DPF regeneration or does it have other functions as well

minor update, I noticed the other day the sensor was showing 212 when all other data sets were blank with the engine off.

[artscot79]

yes its illegal you have tampered with the emission system which is what the cars tax class is based on so the car is illegal to drive without the dpf yes hundreds of garages advertise it but the ownis is on the owner below is from the telegraph This practice has always been illegal, contravening the Road Vehicles
(Construction and Use) Regulation 61 A as it no longer meets emission
standards applied to it when new, but companies continue to advertise
the practice.so in short the cars illegally on the road

Read more: http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/car-news/consumer-news/84818/mot-test-fail-dpf-removal#ixzz3FGQyw75c

http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/car-news/consumer-news/84818/mot-test-fail-dpf-removal

basically youre pumping cancer causing chemicals out of the car regardless of peoples opinions on it it is very much illegal and the garage will simply state you asked them to remove it so they havent technically broke the law im assuming the sensor is supposed to detect that its hot enough for a regen of the dpf but since thats not there it wont get hot enough throwing the fault light

removing your car's diesel particulate filter (DPF) might be tempting, because
the damage caused by a clogged DPF can result in four-figure repair bills.
An internet search reveals numerous companies advertising DPF removal
services, but as well as being bad for the environment this is also illegal,
and the Government has moved to tighten up the regulations concerning such
practices.

In October 2013 Robert Goodwill, roads minister, announced that garages and
testing stations will be required check for a DPF as part of the MoT test
from February 2014. The vehicle will automatically fail test if the filter
had been fitted as standard but is no longer present.

Located within the exhaust system, a DPF captures small soot particles,
preventing them from being expelled into the atmosphere. As with any filter
it needs emptying periodically and this is done automatically, by burning up
the particulates in a process called regeneration.

[south_bound]

In October 2013 Robert Goodwill, roads minister, announced that garages and

testing stations will be required check for a DPF as part of the MoT test

from February 2014. The vehicle will automatically fail test if the filter

had been fitted as standard but is no longer present.

So by that logic over half of all cars over 3 years old and with DPF removed should by now have failed their MOT, seeing as these new rules were brought in over 6 months ago. Maybe I've missed something, but haven't heard of anyone fail for this reason, not on this forum or anywhere else. Sounds like scare tactics but nothing to follow it up.

[TomsFocus]

It's not illegal to gut a DPF.

It IS illegal to drive a car with a gutted DPF.

Though how is anyone gonna know (apart from people you tell on here lol), The police and MOT station aren't gonna see anything different visually. Thi is the whole point of gutting it rather than swapping it for a straight pipe.

Theoretically, its also illegal to blank an EGR, as you're altering the original emmisions spec of the car...but hundreds of people do, me included lol.

[artscot79]

Put it this way you have an accident the assessor will find out as the dpf contains valuable metals that the insurance company sell when its found out its gutted youll be reported for driving without insurance non valid mot etc. The mot tester cant tell but theres talk that they will do a force regen next year as part of the mot so theyll soon find out if you dont have one vosa said in an email to my mates garage they are aware of the loop holes and there are discussions ongoing which if successful will put an end to the practice once and for all so we will wait and see also try trade it in most garages now will do a force regen to check if the dpf is there if not they wont touch it with a barge pole my mate will not take any diesels now as he was stung with having to replace 2 dpfs

[TomsFocus]

That's interesting, I hadn't heard about the idea of forcing a regen at MOT. I cant see that they would though, as it'll add a huge chunk of time onto any MOT (needs warm up time then about 15 mins for the regen itself)and they'd have to raise the price to cover themselves to do that.

I also don't think the insurance assessor would waste their time going through that hassle if I'm honest.

Its a difficult area though, as DPFs have a huge list of cons and only one pro. Maybe if there was a way of making them cheaper, or extending their life, people would be more reluctant to get rid of them. I currently still have mine as it works fine, just wastes a bit of my fuel and reduces performance as its designed to lol, but nothing unexpected. But if it was to completely block past being regen'able, I don't think I'd be paying £600 or whatever it for a new one when it costs half as much for removable.

[Dee_82]

not heard of this either.

the sensor is on the outer casing, its simply not picking up a valid reading, I cant see how it would be because the dpf is gutted that its not working, or we would have other folk with same issue.

[artscot79]

Trust me if youre insurance can get out of paying they will and have done so already force regen is easy as the mot takes more than long enough all they need to do is leave it running while they do the other checks will take no more time or cost to do it in vosas words all have been warned theres more legislation coming the removal company round my way point blank refuse to do it now after a few of there removals were spotted at the mot now trading standards are involved. Whatever people believe the fact remains youre car is illegal an assessor in an accident will check if the cars chipped or mapped and will have the dpf checked.

As for the sensor they usually modify the ecu into believing the dpf is there sounds like they havent done this however lots of these places botch it up breaking the sensors and badly welding the dpf so the mot tester spots it i know one guy that it happened to weld was poor and the tester failed the car so he had it welded properly it still failed because he now had to.prove the dpf was replaced as its on vosas system in the end he got an aftermarketdpf fitted in the long run it cost him way more than simply replacing it

[Dee_82]

the ECU modifications is to stop it running active regens and such like, its to make it believe it isn't there, its not I believe to stop the sensors working. This can easily be checked though, if anyone here with a cleared DPF can check the output of the PPTF sensor and see if it comes up with a reading and what that reading is and more importantly, does it change?

The insurance bit makes sense although im quite sure from the crap they removed from it there isn't anything metal inside that's worth anything. An id agree they would try and get anything out of it they could and get out of paying as well, but on that basis fitting an EGR plate should also be illegal no as its definitely modifying the emmisions.

From an insurance point of view, whats the consensus of telling them about these changes, remaps, EGRs, DPFs etc etc. all will modify the emissions so should all be "illegal" from that point of view, so should we tell them or not, not telling them sounds daft and asking for trouble but telling them would be admitting to breaking the law, based on your point?

Wheres Lenny when you need him!

:)

[artscot79]

if you told them youde have to get the emissions rechecked to see what banding it would come under then youde have to send away for a new log book etc but since removing the dpf is illegal you cant make it legal in short youde be admitting to illegally driving the car for which youre insurance doesnt cover you for nor does the mot you cant make it legal short of replacing the dpf

It is an offence under the Road Vehicles (Construction
and Use) Regulations to use a vehicle that has been modified in such a way
that it no longer complies with the air pollutant emissions standards it was
designed to meet.” Removal of a DPF will almost invariably contravene these
requirements, making the vehicle illegal for road use.

[dreadz]

Yawn.... Not this argument again... My friend is mot tester blah blah.... We had this back in the year before new tests came out and to be honest i know no one who had failed? All these checks that were supposed to come? Where are they? Instead of posting what you have heard post proof... Until then people remove, block whatever you want! Mine flew through with better results than last year! Figure that?

[dreadz]

And you can always claim you bought car in that condition to insurance... Let them prove otherwise if your caught, that's down to them to do not other way round!

[dreadz]

And if your that concerned that they will plug in some fancy machine in your port, then you can easily disable it by removing a wire or fitting switch elsewhere... When connected it won't read... Can't fail it for that.. Or can they lol

[Dee_82]

good point, a responsive OBD port would be needed in to get a forced regen, not to mention appropriate equipment in every MOT station to set it off, cant imagine a free copy of forscan and a cloned ELM327 off eBay could be deemed reliable enough to do it meaning more expensive certified equipment needed, though there might be ways like opening and closing the fuel cap 2 dozen times that sets it off but oops, that wires not doing anything either.... The only thing that could realistically be done is a form of emissions test, not sure if the same gear for petrol could be used as is or need "updated" (read:Expensive upgrade)

Hell, a new DPF is a about £160, I could clone my ECU add DPF functions, reflash it and have it installed in a weekend if it goes that way. The insurance bit is a little more interesting though...

[dreadz]

Emissions test wouldn't work... As only a smoke test on diesel. Nothing stopping them from sing emissions on new cars going forward but retrospectively is different ball game!

[artscot79]

Auto
Express investigated 10 DPF removal companies, with most not informing
them that their modification will affect the performance of their car,
and thus affect their insurance policy.

The Association of British Insurers told the magazine that motorists
should “tell their insurer about any modification”, with one saying it
would decline to cover cars with their DPF removed due to the ECU
needing reprogramming after removal.edit churchill direct line and underwriters have also refused to insure cars

Most garages wrongly stated that it wasn’t essential to tell
insurance companies as the modification is difficult to detect, and
wouldn’t contravene the Road Vehicles (Construction and Use) Regulation
61A (using a modified car on the road which no longer meets the
emissions standards applied to it when new).

With the MOT not fully enforcing these regulations, vehicles passing the basic diesel smoke opacity inspection will still pass.

- See more at: http://www.eurocats.co.uk/2013/11/20/removing-your-dpf-could-invalidate-insurance/#sthash.2aZKypdN.dpuf

http://www.eurocats.co.uk/2013/11/20/removing-your-dpf-could-invalidate-insurance/

the issue is that people on here are mis informing others on having the dpf removed giving them little facts as to the legality etc we cant give out radio codes but we can advise others to just whip out there dpf without saying its illegal as the poster stated he was not aware thats my issue as for proof email vosa youreself dont take my word for it in germany for years they use existing equipment plug it into the obd port and do a test takes 2 minutes costs no more money.it should be a sticky on the forum with all the relevant info and left to the person to decide on their own if its right ,no ones failed the test well they have im afraid my mate wont fail it if it looks like its their but he failed one for the weld showing and being poorly done and had to put it on the system the guy had it rewelded and you couldnt tell but vosas online database had it on record that it was suspected of being missing the owner had to pay to prove it was their which it wasnt so no mot could be given in the end he put an aftermarket dpf on etc and passed the test not all companies do a good job

as for the fault above We reprogram the engine's ECU, switching off all the DPF functions.
The car now no longer has a filter and the engine management is not
looking to regenerate it. "Problem Solved"

In most cases that's the end but occasionally
if there has been a mechanical or electronic fault with a component on
the engine such as the EGR valve this would need to be rectified

if the above was done there may be an issue as you say with a broken sensor wire

the latest memo from simon birkett

CAL director Simon Birkett said that vehicles that have had their
filters stripped out are worsening air quality, and that if they are not
subjected to existing MOT emissions tests, or even stricter ones under
the EU proposals

“Tens of thousands of UK motorists are illegally driving diesel vehicles
without the filters, and face losing their car insurance and risk being
found guilty of fraud because of this ( if the customer sell the vehicle on and does not inform the new owner are they committing fraud) many without realising it.

Department of transport speach 2014

A DfT spokesman said: “We are committed to lowering emissions from
vehicles, which is why in European Union negotiations we are supporting
an approach designed to improve emissions testing through the use of the vehicles on board diagnostics or even tail pipe emission tests.

From the association of motor repairers uk newsletter

It is the responsibility of the vehicle owner to
ensure that their vehicle is legal to drive and roadworthy, and to
declare it as such when applying for or renewing insurance. Applying
for or renewing insurance knowing that the vehicle is illegal or
unroadworthy, would amount to misrepresentation and potential fraud.
Terms and conditions of motor insurance policies normally specify that
the vehicle must be registered in the UK (or in the process of being registered), and that the vehicle is roadworthy. No
insurance would be offered or renewed if the owner declared to the
insurer that the vehicle was illegal to drive/unroadworthy.“

Changes in the UK MOT rules from March 2014 also include checks on
the presence of the DPF Filter, so if it has been removed then your car
will fail its MOT inspection. Because this is currently only a visual
check, there are some companies who still continue to offer DPF Removal /
DPF Delete services which involve opening up the DPF, knocking out the
insides, rewelding and refitting, essentially leaving the original case
intact and still in its original place in an attempt to fool the MOT
visual check.

However, it is only a matter of time before the current MOT test
changes once again, to include a more advance method of checking, which
is already in place across parts of Europe and involves plugging a
diagnostic system into the car computer during the MOT test, and
physically checking that the DPF is present and working. Should the test
detect a problem, then the car will fail.

Auto
Express investigated 10 DPF removal companies, with most not informing
them that their modification will affect the performance of their car,
and thus affect their insurance policy.

The Association of British Insurers told the magazine that motorists
should “tell their insurer about any modification”, with one saying it
would decline to cover cars with their DPF removed due to the ECU
needing reprogramming after removal.

Most garages wrongly stated that it wasn’t essential to tell
insurance companies as the modification is difficult to detect, and
wouldn’t contravene the Road Vehicles (Construction and Use) Regulation
61A (using a modified car on the road which no longer meets the
emissions standards applied to it when new).

With the MOT not fully enforcing these regulations, vehicles passing the basic diesel smoke opacity inspection will still pass.

- See more at: http://www.eurocats.co.uk/2013/11/20/removing-your-dpf-could-invalidate-insurance/#sthash.2aZKypdN.dpuf

Auto
Express investigated 10 DPF removal companies, with most not informing
them that their modification will affect the performance of their car,
and thus affect their insurance policy.

The Association of British Insurers told the magazine that motorists
should “tell their insurer about any modification”, with one saying it
would decline to cover cars with their DPF removed due to the ECU
needing reprogramming after removal.

Most garages wrongly stated that it wasn’t essential to tell
insurance companies as the modification is difficult to detect, and
wouldn’t contravene the Road Vehicles (Construction and Use) Regulation
61A (using a modified car on the road which no longer meets the
emissions standards applied to it when new).

With the MOT not fully enforcing these regulations, vehicles passing the basic diesel smoke opacity inspection will still pass.

- See more at: http://www.eurocats.co.uk/2013/11/20/removing-your-dpf-could-invalidate-insurance/#sthash.2aZKypdN.dpuf

[dreadz]

Wow... Well done on the copy and paste... Yes it's harmful... Am i bothered, not really. As far as my insurance goes... I bought the car as it was and no modifications have been carried out by myself or to my knowledge.... If the removal had been done to high standard then no need to worry about welds... Make sure heatshields etc are placed back on... Testers are not allowed to tap/remove etc to gain access! And there we have it... I know of several garages that offer this service and they still running... Infact assume offer mot services... Think you need to stop using your mates garage as he sounds far to anal for my liking!

[dreadz]

Also reading into how the German test works... If you can't communicate with obd then it defaults back to normal test...so it's not a fail if for some bizarre reason it doesn't work!

[dreadz]

Actually decided to have a good read about German pti... Very interesting and some of the research behind the tests was intriguing too. The obd looks for faults etc and general running measurements and compares to manufacturer... I'm sure someone will be able to program those figures into ecu to fool it.. But i will agree with you that there will be more in depth testing coming but some years off. They are saying that even the German pti tests are not picking up everything and needs changing! Once the crack it then prob see changes here. But it's also looking at filters for petrol too lol

[Dee_82]

would they apply those tests retrospectively to older cars over there?

[dreadz]

No they don't all apply as a blanket can't remember but depends on yr manufacture

[dreadz]

20 May 2018

· Updated test content

· Introduction of minimum competence requirements for new testers and refresher training requirements for all testers

· EU Commission to adopt rules under Delegated Acts on access to technical vehicle information required for PTI

· The use of tailpipe or OBD for emission inspections under certain conditions for Euro 5 or 6 engines. Euro 5 tailpipe or conditional OBD (On Board Diagnostics), Euro 6 free choice between tailpipe or OBD