Engine System Fault - Help

[pauljoanss]

This is a problem with my daughters car, a Focus Estate, 1.6 Diesel, 2007.

For many months the "Engine System Fault" has been coming and going resulting in "limp home" mode when it shows. Currently it is on all the time and I am trying to help.

Using a basic OBD device, the following faults are showing.

P0483 - Powertrain

Cooling Fan Rationality Check

P0405 - Powertrain

Exhaust Gas Recirculation Sensor "A" Circuit Low

P0335 - Powertrain

Crankshaft Position Sensor A Circuit

P0380 - Powewrtrain

Glow Plug/Heater Circuit "A"

Note we have previously tackled the Exhaust Gas Recirculation Fault by blanking off the device as recommended in other threads. Since this fault has been showing when the "engine system Fault" has not been present I do not believe it is the root problem.

Can anyone advise which of these other faults could cause the "engine system fault" problem or advise any other way forwards.

Many thanks in advance.

[Pink Panther]

Have you wiped the codes then taken it out for a drive to see which ones come back? crank sensor would normally result in non starting

[pauljoanss]

Have tried to wipe codes (using Torque App on Android phone) but they are all grey and app says cannot be deleted but ECU may delete them automatically after N starts. Seems strange since I thought greyed faults meant they were historic, but the fault is current.

Did notice this morning that the Engine system fault message had disappeared at stat up, so rescanned faults and no different. The Engine fault comes back on very quickly after starting.

Taking car into garage this afternoon for their diagnosis, will report back.

[pauljoanss]

Just back from garage, they used a Snapon reader, but it came up with similar results except they were able to clear the crankshaft and the Exhaust gas valve fault leaving only the fan and glow plug fault.

This was carried out by a youngish chap who then discussed it with older more experienced man who immediately advised it was a glow plug problem and they had seen similar on the same engine model recently. Also commented that they are very difficult to change, "will break just by looking at them", I have seen similar comments on many threads here so decided would not attempt because access also very difficult. Was a bit puzzled because I thought glow plugs only used at startup but was told that on Ford Diesels they are also used to help burn up the exhaust gas and if faulty the Computer senses exhaust gas composition out of limits so cuts back on engine power and turns on Engine Systems Fault.

They have quoted me £145.63 to replace glow plugs, including parts, labour and VAT (based on 1hr labour @ £60 + 4 x £15.34 parts plus VAT on both), that was cheaper than I thought, although have also been charged £42 for diagnostics. However this is a garage I know well and have always found them to be fair and upfront.

Will report back when job done, but will not be for a couple of weeks since the car is needed for a holiday, despite the low power.

[Pink Panther]

I used to do a lot of work on the 1.6 s**tron engine, never had any problems removing the plugs myself, just out of curiosity what mileage is on it?

[pauljoanss]

The mileage is about 160k. I have no experience of Glow Plugs, not sure what they look like or where they are to be found but understand they are at the rear of the block and difficult to access. I had already read on many threads that they can break very easily when being removed so was not surprised when the garage man raised the issue. Very surprised that the "official" labour time for the quote is only 1 hour. Because I am very DIY on cars I have virtually no experience of garage quotes and I need to check if this is a fixed price or just an estimate, what happens if there are problems, do I pay the extra.

I did raise the issue "what if this does not fix the problem" and the answer was "we will have to cross that bridge if we come to it".

Not concerned because I have complete faith in the integrity of this garage and will give it a plug (!) when it all turns out well.

Do not expect to have a result until about 2 weeks time.

[TomsFocus]

I haven't read of breaking them being common on this engine? I've broken a couple on the old Peugeot TUD5 engine though, it's a complete pain when they do break!

On any modern common rail diesel engine, the glow plugs are used during warm up to reduce emmisions, even though the light isn't on. With the 1.6 having a DPF (I assume its a 110bhp DPF model?) they are also used during DPF regeneration. The fan will also be used during regen so that needs fixing as well ideally. Glowplugs do cost more than spark plugs, but don't need changing any where near as often, that price sounds reasonable to me.

The price is probably an estimate, and 'could' rise, but of the few jobs I've taken to a local garage (usually awkward jobs I cant do myself!) have never been charged over the estimate.

[south_bound]

I had exactly the same problem on the same engine a few weeks back (1.6TDCi with 110k miles) - but there were no codes to help isolate the problem. The cost was almost exactly the same - 1 hour labour and £15 per plug (including immediate delivery from ECP). 2 of them were apparently a pig to get out which took them a bit longer but still only charged me an hour although I was getting other things done at the same time. I have heard of them breaking off the tips, but mainly from people trying DIY and maybe being a bit rough, so for the cost of an hour's labour it migt be worth it.

[south_bound]

Forgot to say, I drove nearly 1000 miles in limp mode as the problem started just at the start of my trip back from holidays. apart from being very slow and needing to be careful pulling out at junctions and round abouts I don't think it caused any harm so you should be ok going on holidays as is.

[pauljoanss]

Thanks Tomsfocus for talking about the DPF.

I first came across this term when DIY servicing this car using schedule from Haynes manual. The manual described its location and I could not find one so decided it did not exist. Just looked at the log book and it states engine as Diesel, 1560cc, max net power 66KW. If I am correct this converts to 88 HP, note it is a Focus Estate. So does this mean there is no DPF or should I be looking harder. If there is a DPF problem then should this show up on a fault code?

You mention the fan being used in regeneration of the DPF, do you mean the normal radiator fan, how does this relate to the DPF.

[TomsFocus]

Yes you are correct, its a 90bhp model so won't have a DPF, just a cat, so no regenerations or DPF problems for you! :)

Basically a regeneration is where the DPF heats up to around 550c...so the engine radiator fan comes on at full speed to cool the engine and engine bay when the regen is in progress to stop the excess heat causing damage.

[pauljoanss]

They have quoted me £145.63 to replace glow plugs, including parts, labour and VAT (based on 1hr labour @ £60 + 4 x £15.34 parts plus VAT on both), that was cheaper than I thought, although have also been charged £42 for diagnostics. However this is a garage I know well and have always found them to be fair and upfront.

Will report back when job done, but will not be for a couple of weeks since the car is needed for a holiday, despite the low power.

Sorry for taking so long to report back but wanted to make sure the problem was properly solved.

The garage replaced the glow plugs, they had problems as predicted and in the end had to keep the car for 2 days. I have no question this was genuine because I called in a couple of times during the 2 days. The engine warning light is now off and all faults clear except for one about "fan continuity" (?) and it is running well, so very happy. The garage charged me an extra 1/2 hour labour so it came to around £185 in the end and I was quite happy.

So all is well, the garage is Wantage MOT Center (Wantage Oxfordshire), I have always found them very helpful and fair.

[pauljoanss]

Sorry that remaining error should have read "cooling fan rationality check" (?).