Strange EGR Problems mk2.5 1.6 TDCI

[Focusoap]

What an interesting thread! Fortunately I haven't had any problems with my 1.6tdci EGR valve but plenty on a VW Golf.

The biggest difficulty I experienced was the added complication that most of these valves are driven by a PWM signal and a variable duty cycle parameter. I found it very difficult to get coherent results of input voltages to the valve using DVMs because of the integration period of the sampled signal and found using a good old AVO analogue meter gave a more realistic averaged "RMS" measurement. In the end I borrowed a cheap oscilloscope and was amazed at the voltage differences in the readings between the various measuring devices. I even ended up soldering hookup connections into the feed cables of the valve to get a decent reliable connection and avoid shorting the output of the ECU. In the end the problem was that the new valve hadn't learnt the setup values correctly due to a poor connection from the ECU and the reference potentiometer was giving garbage feedback confusing the ECU.

EGRs along with DPFs should be abolished when we finally get out of the EU!

[omerone]

Hi Peter,

today I had some more time and decided to re-check the measurments of the valve because I wanted to re-check this old valve. And than i've realized that yesterday I've inverted the direction of the pins, so the ref voltage anyway is ok because comes from the two 2 pins on the extremes, but the VOUT measurments were totally wrong...I'm sorry....but here is what i've discovered new:

New valve:

VOUT closed: 1,16 V ( 1,25 V when I delete the DTC with Forscan )

VOUT open: 4,13 V

 

Old valve:

VOUT closed: 0,28 V

VOUT open: 4,77 V

 

For the old valve i've again moved manually the fork from one extrem to the other.

 

So this somehow makes more sense, but obviously there is difference.....could this be a confirmation that the valves are not the same?

 

[Tdci-Peter]

42 minutes ago, omerone said:

New valve:

VOUT closed: 1,16 V ( 1,25 V when I delete the DTC with Forscan )

VOUT open: 4,13 V

 

Old valve:

VOUT closed: 0,28 V

VOUT open: 4,77 V

That makes a lot more sense!

Hard to say if the difference is significant. If I was designing the software, that is in what I would consider a sensible range.

But the span (open-closed) is about 3v on the new valve, and 4.5v on the old one. That could be outside the set limits. It is a bit unfair though, because you can not see what the new valve is doing, it may not be moving over its full range, whereas the old one is.

It is looking like a test with a Valeo valve that works is the way to go, if that is possible.

 

[omerone]

I'm not sure technically, but it seems than that due to higher voltage in closed position, the new valve is not getting enough current to move...But than how is it possible to move it from Forscan? Because this lower current limit in the ECU is being forced? Anyway it's clear that without a working Valeo i'll not find an answer... I'll come back with hopefully a final verdict...

[Tdci-Peter]

3 hours ago, omerone said:

it seems than that due to higher voltage in closed position, the new valve is not getting enough current to move...But than how is it possible to move it from Forscan?

The signals from the feedback pot (VOUT, VREF, VGRD) are entirely separate from the drive signals to the motor.

I suspect the ECU is driving it fully open, but using its earlier (Valeo) learnt values, it only sees the movement as 70%, because the new valve gives a smaller signal on its output for the same travel. And then it is detecting a fault, and refusing to relearn the new values on this valve. Personally, I think it needs a good kicking! Fussy software. Unfortunately I doubt if that would help very much.

Without the ability to test the valves side by side on a workbench with a variable power supply and multimeter, probably the best option is to try to get a working Valeo valve to try. It is frustrating

[omerone]

only a detail I found on official Ford repair manuals:

http://workshop-manuals.com/ford/focus_2004.75_07.2004/mechanical_repairs/3_powertrain/303_engine/303-08c_engine_emission_control_1.6l_duratorq-tdci_(dv)_diesel/description_and_operation/diagnosis_and_testing/engine_emission_control/

"If a new EGR valve is installed. The base setting (closed position) value must be configured to the PCM. This is initiated using WDS. If the base setting is not configured to the PCM, the setting from the previous EGR valve will be used and the control function of the EGR system will be incorrect."

Could it be that not official Ford diagnostic softwares are not able to really initiate the base setting of the new valve into the PCM?

[Tdci-Peter]

On 04/03/2017 at 11:25 PM, omerone said:

Could it be that not official Ford diagnostic softwares are not able to really initiate the base setting of the new valve into the PCM?

If anyone has changed an EGR on a 1.6TDCI, and used Forscan to reset & relearn, it would be very useful to hear about it!

The Forscan EGR reset procedure has been in since about 2013 (version 2.1.6), and there are not a lot of reported problems on the Forscan forum, your queries there seem to be the first!

Forscan is usually pretty good at doing the jobs that the Ford IDS (was WDS) system does. I would have thought major defects in that procedure would have been reported or fixed by now. Judging by the number of replacement EGRs advertised, it seems quite a common diy job.

Did the garage who replaced the EGR have IDS? They did a valve reset, I believe.

If Pierburg are charging more, and claiming it is compatible, then perhaps it is they who should be answering some of these questions.

[andystephenson]

Hi all,

I can't help too much with all the diagnostics you have posted however in the end what fixed it was replacing the EGR with whatever brand the standard Ford part was. I had tried 3 EGR valves of a different brand (can't remember exactly which brand) but once a genuine part was installed and the EGR reset procedure was done the car has run fine since.

[omerone]

Hi Andy,

thanks a lot for this feedback, I think it really says a lot. Is it possible for you to find out which EGR was last installed? Maybe you have it on an invoice or something or you could just take a picture of the cap where the brand and the model N. is!

Thank you very much

[andystephenson]

7 hours ago, omerone said:

Hi Andy,

thanks a lot for this feedback, I think it really says a lot. Is it possible for you to find out which EGR was last installed? Maybe you have it on an invoice or something or you could just take a picture of the cap where the brand and the model N. is!

Thank you very much

I've just been out to the car, I'm no mechanic but I think this is the EGR valve fitted below.

[omerone]

Hi Andy,

thanks a lot for this...it confirms even more my theory...the genuine EGR for the Focus is Valeo...the number on yours anyway differs from my old one....do you maybe have the 90hp engine? I have already asked the garage to provide the Valeo 700412 Egr and will post the results.

 

[im2009]

Hi all,

nice discussion going on so I will join. :)

I have a 2008 1.6 TDCI Ford Focus, 109BHP, 147.000 miles (237.000km)

I am also starting to get some EGR misbehavior and I am thinking about buying a new EGR valve before more problems will appear. I occasionally (cca. once a month) get a P1402-21 (EGR metering orifice restricted ), never when driving, always after engine switch off. Car drives more or les normally, not engine lights, maybe some occasional hesitations when accelerating.

I asked my garage to check/clean EGR valve and I was told that there are no obvious problems and that it looks pretty clean (mechanical part) so I assume that electrical part is misbehaving. 

When I connected to ForSCAN I get FL_EGRV (first learning of EGR) Not Learnt and similar for LL_EGRV (last learning of EGR) Not Learnt.

So to be on the safe side I am planing to buy a new Valeo EGR valve to replace existing part (see picture). When I asked for price at my garage they said it is over 200 pounds, so I decided to find one on eBay for more reasonable price. Based on part numbers I have a "700414 type" EGR. On eBay I found a few options .

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/GENUINE-VALEO-FORD-EGR-VALVE-1-6-TDCI-BRAND-NEW-1338675-1439414-1526689-/171990646920?hash=item280b710088:g:k6AAAOSw5VFWPLX5

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/700444-VALEO-OE-QUALLITY-EGR-GAS-RECIRCULATION-VALVE-/282316737156?hash=item41bb638a84:g:FNAAAOSw2xRYbzmz

Are those genuine parts? Are they ok since Peter said that there are "some cheap clones" available for 70 pounds and this is not a lot more?

You mentioned also 700412 type EGR for similar type of engine. Differences?

Thank you for information.

ps. Regarding your problems with presumably 70% open / closed EGR. Can someone with same engine do a ForSCAN recording and then compare data? I can share some data, but as I said, I also have some "Not Learnt" issues.

[omerone]

Hi Igor,

just to give a short feedback before you buy and replace maybe for nothing your working EGR valve....the DTC you are getting it's not surely an EGR valve problem...could be quite more than normal carbon build up in the whole EGR system ( that's not only the EGR valve, there's the cooler and several pipes ) and maybe it should be cleaned... the EGR is for sure to be cleaned or substituted when stuck open or closed, so it cannot at all operate properly. I was getting this error also but the car was working fine but only when the valve was stuck open for some reason it needed to be replaced and there is where all of my problems started. Tomorrow my garage will replace the Pierburg valve with a 'genuine' Ford one that I guess will be a Valeo. I was suggesting to the garage to try the 700412 because here

http://www.valeoservice.com/data/master/webfile/12915640124FCF68B668BA9.pdf?rnd=570

is the only one offically listed by Valeo for the Focus Euro4, but the garage has some contacts directly in Ford so they will get this genuine one and we will see what this means. Tomorrow probably i'll be able to tell you more.

Actually you have my same engine and year and the numbers on your EGR ( 9685640480 and 21604679-9 ) are also on my old valve. Would be great if you can check from Forscan which values in percantage you are getting when commanding the valve to fully open ( you can do this also with only ignition on ). Strange that you have 'Not Learnt' values for the old valve...you or anybody else tried to reset the adaptation values of the valve?

 

[im2009]

Hi Omerone,

thank you for info. I basically do not want to get into a situation when EGR got stuck (open or closed) because it may happen when I will be going to the sea side, fully loaded and I will be in a hurry (Murphy law :) ). Since there was not a lot of carbon buildup on EGR I assume there is not a lot of it on other components, piping (lot of motorway driving). I can be wrong.

Have my fingers crossed that your new valeo EGR will work ok. If so, I would be interested to get a picture or numbers from your new EGR to see what to look for when I will have to change it.

Unfortunately I only have Android version of ForSCAN so I can not command different values to EGR, but I am attaching a log from one of my longer drives with ForSCAN recording (change file type from pdf to rar and open). There you can see that maximal position is 98%, so it should be ok. 

During that drive, you can also see DPF regeneration (form 430s to 950s). When DPF process starts, EGR is closed, but EGR throtle valve "becames alive".

Can EGR valve learnt position only be (re)set at garage or with ForSCAN windows version or can it be also reset by resenting car computer (battery disconnected for several minutes)? I took a look at some older logs from 2015 and there FL_EGRV and LL_EGRV were Not Learnt as well and car was running with no problems.

 

LiveData_2016-09-03_11.23.58 focus_loka_pred.PDF

[omerone]

Hi all,

Igor thanks for the data and for the confirmation that the egr valve should open up to 98% and not 70% like in my case.

Anyway the guys at the garage today substituted the Pierburg valve with a genuine Valeo model that you can see here in photo ( and of course performed the reset procedure )

 

 

So it looks the same like the one Andy has got ( for some reason a number is missing on it - *9672880080* ) but there was also the box with the model number 700414 and not 700412 as should be from the list from Valeo that i've posted yesterday.

Anyway it didn't solve the problem: all the 3 DTCs still present any time the engine is shut down and ignition on again and in Forscan still showing maximum opening up to 70%, but with the following differences

- the car has got back the full power like was not completely there with the Pierburg, much better response in every moment of acceleration

- the valve now is operating ( as possible to monitor with Forscan ) even without deleting the DTCs, thing that was not happening with the Pierburg

So the thing is not solved, I'll try to use a bit the car without deleting the codes in order to complete some driving cycles but at this point the visit to Ford must follow as it looks like a PCM / software issue that only they can probably solve...

Anyway Igor this valve you can find as a genuine piece also on eBay like here ( just pay attention that the brand with barcode and numbers is there ):

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Genuine-EGR-Valve-1-6-HDi-D-TDCi-Mini-Citroen-Fiat-Ford-Peugeot-Volvo/222217263280?_trksid=p2047675.c100623.m-1&_trkparms=aid%3D222007%26algo%3DSIC.MBE%26ao%3D2%26asc%3D20160323102634%26meid%3D4b012e5865ba4720a0d893ff5f5cdf0a%26pid%3D100623%26rk%3D2%26rkt%3D6%26mehot%3Dpp%26sd%3D171990646920

and as far as I know the reset procedure must be done with a diagnostic software like Forscan or other ones. Anyway you can change the valve also without resetting the parameters, the new valve will simply use the same from the old one.

 

 

 

 

[im2009]

Hi Omerone,

Thank you for EGR picture and data. To install 700414 makes more sense to me. Version 700412 is probably the one with extra cable connector. Valeo data can be outdated or just wrong.

Have you tried to record data while driving? Is there also 70% open a maximal value?

Thank you for eBay link. Now I am pretty sure what to buy if needed. 

I also ordered USB version of OBD2 connector that I can use with PC version of Forscan to see more data from my engine and to be able to do resetting and programming if needed.

[Tdci-Peter]

14 hours ago, omerone said:

Anyway it didn't solve the problem: all the 3 DTCs still present any time the engine is shut down and ignition on again and in Forscan still showing maximum opening up to 70%

That is not good news. It deepens the mystery of what is happening, as well as being potentially expensive.

It might be helpful to compare the electrical measurements of the valve position signal, to see if it is more like the old valve (4.5v span), or like the Pierburg (3v span). But I know that may not be easy or convenient.

Does the garage fitting these valves use Ford IDS to reset the learnt values, or some other system like Forscan or Snap-On?

It would be disapointing if it turned out that Ford IDS is the only system that can do it. I am pretty certain that other people have used Forscan to do this, it must be quite a common need. But maybe there are different ECU software versions in use for the car, some of which have not been tested by the Forscan team. The 1.6TDCI does seem to vary a bit, like some take EGR blanking plates ok, some complain.

2 hours ago, im2009 said:

I also ordered USB version of OBD2 connector that I can use with PC version of Forscan to see more data from my engine and to be able to do resetting and programming if needed.

I looked at the big .FSL file you uploaded, but apart from seeing what you said, I did not notice any obvious clues.

In graph mode (most useful for runs while driving), I only see the 1st 12 PIDs. And they are not very useful. Have you found a way to select channels to graph? Maybe I need to check the latest issue, mine is a year old. Also actual rpm would be useful.

This failure to learn new values is annoying me, but it must be much more annoying for you and other owners.

 

[im2009]

Peter,

I also noticed that only a few graphs can be seen on PC version of Forscan (thought I do not know how to scroll) whille in regular data mode there were all there..

Data was recorded on Android version of Forscan and there I had no problem scrolling through data in graph mode.

But as I said, mine problem is not so obvious, jet.

 

[omerone]

59 minutes ago, Tdci-Peter said:

That is not good news. It deepens the mystery of what is happening, as well as being potentially expensive.

It might be helpful to compare the electrical measurements of the valve position signal, to see if it is more like the old valve (4.5v span), or like the Pierburg (3v span). But I know that may not be easy or convenient.

Does the garage fitting these valves use Ford IDS to reset the learnt values, or some other system like Forscan or Snap-On?

 

It is not good news...today the mechanic from the garage will contact a guy in Ford to try to understand a bit better what could be behind this all...they also want somehow to understand better..I was quite lucky that the garage decided to fit a genuine Valeo without additional expanses for me because for them was also all very strange...Let's see what will happen with Ford.

I'll maybe try to re-measure the VREF or the new Valeo.

I don't know which system the garage is using, forgot to ask but for sure it's not Forscan and neither Ford IDS, it's a kind of portable tool in the dimension of a laptop, looks as a profesisonal tool that they use for all car brands...

But how to explain a different behaviour of the car? I have more power, it's like it always was in acceleration now, but the codes are still there...Any idea if those codes could be self-erased after a while? Or absolutely not if the PCM reads maximum opening at 70%?

[Tdci-Peter]

21 minutes ago, omerone said:

I have more power, it's like it always was in acceleration now, but the codes are still there...Any idea if those codes could be self-erased after a while?

Maybe the voltages are more like the older valve. If the Peirburg valve was always staying a bit open, then that could reduce power, but if the voltages have changed, maybe it is now closing fully, but not opening enough.

Unfortunately the diagnostics from the car do not help that much here. We are just seeing the values that the ECU is reading, the same wrong (unlearnt) values that the ECU is using. It needs direct access to the valve (voltages, and ideally seeing the valve movement, to understand what the valve is really doing.

Codes will usually self erase after a few start cycles, but not if they are being re-generated on each EGR test at switch off.

It sounds like an honest & helpful garage you are using, it must be a real struggle for garages like that to keep up with all these complex, software dominated, cars. I hate the monopoly that Ford PLC. & Ford franchised dealers try to keep to themselves. It is bad for everyone in the end.

[omerone]

Hi all,

i'm coming back to the topic with a final conclusion over my 'bad' experience with the EGR valve, in hope that it could also help somebody else out there.

Finally it's all solved. After having the second new EGR valve installed from my mechanic, the problem was still there, but the car had a better response for some reason. But the garage had no other clear ideas, so I decided to go to Ford to hopefully come to an end and to stop using the car in this way that for sure would create other problems after a while. 

So I went to a different Ford garage ( in the first one the chief mechanic excluded the software update of the car and I never really understood that position, it should be a positive thing for every car if a software is improved, like a firmware of any device ). After explaining the whole story they were actually a bit reluctant to take my car in but under my insistance they proceeded to make a diagnosis with Ford IDS. The result was the same, same 3 codes that after deleting were reappearing only after engine off and on again. The mechanic than said that the first thing they must do is to substitute the EGR valve with a genuine one and to install a new software in the car. I was totally surprised of course because this guy had no problems to make the software update but also because he said that Valeo is also not the genuine product, while my mechanic has got from his Ford contact the information that a genuine egr valve was a Valeo and I was quite sure that Valeo valves are originally mounted by Ford because several owners I've asked to could confirm and my original old valve was a Valeo ( same one that Igor has ) and i've got the car with only 60.000 km, so I really doubt that that component was already substituted. 

Anyway I've decided to take the risk and do the job. The following day it was done and here is the photo of the valve that was installed

so really with a Ford brand on it and together with the software update the mechanic said it was solved. I couldn't believe to that and anyway happy that it was solved I've paid 450 Euro bill and jumped in the car to check how it will drive. With big disappointment I've realized immediately that the car was again not that ok, sometimes without boost etc. After some kilometers I decide to plug my computer with Forscan and like in a perfect nightmare I could see again the 3 codes. I than drive back immediately to Ford and tell that I feel the car not ok and ask for another diagnosis and that I want to see with my eyes that the codes are not present in their software. I've raccomended to the mechanic that the codes were reappearing after engine off and on again but he said of course he checked that and that it was ok, but in my opninion he didn't check...so even if they were looking at me and thinking i'm crazy they allowed the re-check and of course found the codes again and only then they became a bit more concerned and focused on the thing. Another mechanic said that of course if this is the 3rd valve i'm installing with same results it couldn't be the valve itself, but he suggested to verify all the electrical harness and connections, but that was meaning to dismantle half car, with many working hours and maybe not finding the problem. But I decided to do that in a hope to solve it and anyway as a last attempt before getting rid of the car for very cheap. And so was done, they unmounted everything from egr valve to the pcm checked every connector and cable and couldn't find anything strange. Only after few hours one of the guys saw in one of the connectors from the pcm that on one pin there was something. He took it off and said it was silicon, probably sealant that they put around the connectors during the assembly or something. Incredibly when reconnected everything and reset the egr the codes were not there anymore. I was also there and couldn't believe. It was solved. So the only possible explanation was that for some reason until the original old egr was there it was working with the original parametrs but once the first new valve was installed it couldn't be programmed because of this one pin not getting in contact properly. So both previous valves, Pierburg and Valeo were fine. Anyway only Ford could solve the problem because my garage would not dig that deep and couldn't install the new software for the car. Ford was also very fair and calculated only another hour of work when in reality they spent minimum 4.

Finally here is a screenshot of how the parameters look like now in Forscan

 

 

so you can see egr valve at 88.5 % at idle and all learnt values for the egr. The egr is also opening and closing 3-4 times after engine off from 0% till 99,5% for the cleaning and self test procedure ( thing that was not happening till now ). The car now is like reborn, full power finally. Another incredible improvement is that the consumption per 100kms that usually I had between 6l and 6,3l has dropped to 4.6l...I really cannot believe to this...maybe I never had the egr ssytem working properly or the new software has some really good improvements.

At the end of all of this bad experience I can say the result is still ok, was expensive all in all but my car was saved, at least for now. I could never immagine that a component like the egr valve could condition so much the performance of the car and would strongly raccomend to anybody thinking on managing the valve personally to not touch it until it's very necessary ( like in my case was: stuck open so engine is dying ). To Igor I can say that those not learnt values are not normal, maybe better to fix that before having bigger issues. At Ford thay said that driving for a month or more like I did with the EGR not operating properly will fill the dpf over limits and it even cannot regenerate properly and it gets very, very expensive.

If anybody is interested I have a genuine Valeo 700414 absolutely ok for the 1.6 TDCi engine, was only one week in my car, so like new and it originally costed 280Euro. You can check online, that's the price...The ones for 100 euro are copies...

Thanks to everybody was helping during these hard days!

 

 

 

 

[justlower]

Hey , thanks for your infos. I have the same problem as you had.  I took the ECU off and clean the connectors with contact cleaner and look what i found inside the ECU pin https://imge.to/i/FSic6 . The car runs a little better now but seems to lose signal to EGR from time to time... 

[Robrobert]

Hi, this problem sounds familiar. How do I find this ECU pin to check? 

[Tdci-Peter]

On 8/24/2019 at 7:17 PM, Robrobert said:

How do I find this ECU pin to check? 

The Focus ECU is in the passenger side wheel arch, inside a plastic housing which is part of the air intake. Remove wheel & wheel arch liner, 4 screws hold on a lid to the housing. But the connector is bolted to the ECU by a headless security bolt that has to be drilled or ground off.

The EGR is on pins D3 & D4 of connector C419 (an 8 rows by 4 columns connector), and A4, D2, C2 of connector C417 (a 12 by 4 connector). The photo above could be C418 or C419 (both 8 by 4), E1 on C419 is the turbo actuator solenoid, E1 on C418 is not used.

Just unplugging and re-connecting the connectors may have made a short term difference in the post above.

[TomsFocus]

9 hours ago, Tdci-Peter said:

The Focus ECU is in the passenger side wheel arch, inside a plastic housing which is part of the air intake. Remove wheel & wheel arch liner, 4 screws hold on a lid to the housing. But the connector is bolted to the ECU by a headless security bolt that has to be drilled or ground off.

I think this might be for the 1.8TDCi and different to the 1.6TDCi?  Mine was inside a plastic casing with 4 'snap-off' security screws holding the lid on.  They had to be dremelled and removed with a flat blade, damaging the plastic casing lid in the process and requiring 4 new screws as well.