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Mondeo MK3 TDCI 130 Cutting Out - Not usual injector fault


Stuartabates
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I know this has been talked about a LOT in forums, but noone seems to have answers when it gets to the stage I'm at.  I have a 2004 Mondeo (Euro3) 2.0 TDCI 130 which has thrown up P0251/P1211 this past year when putting the foot down at lower revs (and particularly up hills and coming out of corners). I have had the valves in the injectors replaced and tested by a diesel specialist, new IMV, Ford fuel filter and checked the pickup in the tank and main fuel lines. Fuel pump seems ok, no filings in past fuel filters and all fuel pressures reading ok on crank, tick over and higher revs.

I have attached screenshots of graphs using ForScan showing Fuel Pressure, RPM, Speed, No of Diagnostic Codes (P0251 then P1121) and throttle voltage.  It seems to maintain pressure for a certain time under heavy load then, without warning, drop to about half then spike to well over maximum.

 
It seems to be an issue maintaining a high flow rate rather than a pressure problem.  Has anyone any ideas? 

Screenshot 2016-08-26 18.27.13.png

Screenshot 2016-08-26 18.27.34.png

Screenshot 2016-08-26 18.28.23.png

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3 hours ago, Stuartabates said:

screenshots of graphs using ForScan showing Fuel Pressure, RPM, Speed, No of Diagnostic Codes (P0251 then P1121) and throttle voltage.

More usually I see, "help my car is ... & a light is on ..."

Here there is the best amount of diagnostic info I have seen, but it is still hard to see a cause for the problem. As you and others have found, I see!

A couple of quick points: The pressure of over 1800 Bar suggests either: A big problem with the pressure regulation (IMV stuck, or wiring fault to IMV?)

Or a faulty pressure transducer. The pump would have to be in very good condition to get to that pressure while the injectors are being opened for high fuel rate (accelerating). So it may not be a real pressure.

(My system went up to 1500 Bar when I tested it recently, I guess the Mondeo injection pressure are similar, but could be wrong)

The other point is that the DTC P1121 normally refers to throttle position, not Accelerator pedal position. I think there is a throttle valve on the 2L diesel, there is on the 1.6TDCI. It is known as the anti-shudder valve, but can be used as a throttle. Forscan has a PID for this on the 1.6, see if it appears on your PID list. I forget the exact term, could look it up if needed.

Peter.

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Thanks for the reply.  I replaced the IMV with a brand new one, so I guess that rules it out.  I will have a look at the wiring to it and see what it's like. 

As far as I can tell there isn't a throttle valve, or anti-shudder valve, on it but I will have a look to make sure.

I got this from a Ford technical bulletin -

 

"P1211 (Fuel pressure higher/lower than requested)

Symptoms:

• Malfunction indicator lamp (MIL) light on. Engine

shut down.

Cause:

pre-determined number of engine cycles then P1211 is always occurs in conjunction with P0251 (follow on fault). If P0251 is present for a s set and the engine is shut down."

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ever added additives to the tank ? seen some posts with your symptoms and codes where a small circular part from the additive bottle cap has gone into the fuel tank without them realising it, caused a lot of stress for them.

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4 hours ago, Stuartabates said:

As far as I can tell there isn't a throttle valve, or anti-shudder valve,

According to Haynes, there is one on the 2L TDCI for the Focus, but the emissions control (this is part of the EGR system) may be different on the 2004 Mondeo.

It did cross my mind that it could be air in the fuel? Sometimes there is no pump in the tank, and so the filter housing operates below atmospheric, any leak will draw in air. If this builds up till it gets to the outlet pipe, the main pump will stall, with a big pressure drop. Then when the air is gone, the pump may overshoot a bit due to control system lag.

But looking at the traces in more detail it does not seem quite right.

Was the throttle pedal fully down for this run? Seeing the MAP reading (turbo boost) might also help, if this point is when the turbo ramps up, or the EGR may be closing (if it has one).

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2 hours ago, craigie53 said:

ever added additives to the tank ? seen some posts with your symptoms and codes where a small circular part from the additive bottle cap has gone into the fuel tank without them realising it, caused a lot of stress for them.

Thanks Craig, but I have never put additives into the diesel cause I know how sensitive these engines can be.  I had the tank out and there was nothing in there that shouldn't be.

1 hour ago, Tdci-Peter said:

It did cross my mind that it could be air in the fuel? Sometimes there is no pump in the tank, and so the filter housing operates below atmospheric, any leak will draw in air. If this builds up till it gets to the outlet pipe, the main pump will stall, with a big pressure drop. Then when the air is gone, the pump may overshoot a bit due to control system lag.

Peter, I put a section of clear pipe in the line from the filter to the pump.  Once all the initial air got out of the system there doesn't seems to be much air at all in the diesel.  Maybe a very small bubble now and then but nothing that should cause any issues.  Unless air is getting in at the connection of this pipe to the fuel pump?

 

1 hour ago, Tdci-Peter said:

Was the throttle pedal fully down for this run? Seeing the MAP reading (turbo boost) might also help, if this point is when the turbo ramps up, or the EGR may be closing (if it has one).

The throttle pedal was fully down until after it cut out.  I had done tests showing the MAP but didn't notice anything out of the ordinary.  I'll take it for a run in the morning and get a reading of the MAP.  I blocked off the EGR to see if it made any difference.  It didn't, but I just left the blanking plate in anyway.

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i think you should consider doing a leak off test on your injectors, i know you said you had them tested by a diesel specialist, but it might be worth trying just to rule them out completely.

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1 hour ago, Stuartabates said:

The throttle pedal was fully down until after it cut out.

I am guessing that 35.7mph @ 1690rpm is 4th gear. It seems a bit lacklustre acceleration, 5mph in 2.5 sec, but with that low rpm, it is below max torque, and the turbo may not be doing much. I tend to avoid max throttle below about 1800rpm, and there are some flat spots on my engine, certainly below 1500rpm. Did the car once pull smoothly from this rev range?

And can this problem be replicated reasonably repeatably at this rev range?

I am trying to understand that initial pressure drop. Subsequent events can be impossible to analyse without full knowledge of the software & hardware. But even with systems where I have designed the hardware, and written the software, multiple or cascaded faults have had me completely confused.:wacko: (That is on much simpler systems than a car engine!)

Possible causes are: Lack of fuel in, excess flow, bad pump, bad IMV, pcm command for low pressure, faulty transducer.

Lack of fuel: Dealt with as far as possible.

Excess flow: Where, why? Seems improbable. Leak back test as Craig (above) suggests might be a good idea, if not already done.

Bad Pump: Gives good pressure at times, runs well most of the time.

Bad IMV: Replaced, runs well most of the time.

Transducer: It is not usually rpm sensitive. If it works well the rest of the time, why this dip?

PCM command: Detects some anomaly, and shuts down the fuel pressure. That is why I am looking for some event like Turbo ramp up or EGR change of state, that is making the pcm reduce the fuel pressure. Any odd sounds or vibrations just prior to the pressure drop?

Apologies for lots of questions and vague suggestions, but you and others have looked at this, with more knowledge & experience. All I can do is try to break it down, and suggest possible additional lines of inquiry.

I wish it was something simple like air, blockage or that old favorite, a blown fuse. But sometimes appallingly complex faults do look simple once you know the answer!

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17 hours ago, Tdci-Peter said:

I am guessing that 35.7mph @ 1690rpm is 4th gear. It seems a bit lacklustre acceleration, 5mph in 2.5 sec, but with that low rpm, it is below max torque, and the turbo may not be doing much. I tend to avoid max throttle below about 1800rpm, and there are some flat spots on my engine, certainly below 1500rpm. Did the car once pull smoothly from this rev range?

And can this problem be replicated reasonably repeatably at this rev range?

I should have said that this reading was taken going up quite a steep hill.  It just down the road from my house and it's easy to get the car to do this nearly every time.  Sometimes there is a slight holding back for a split second when accelerating, but in general the car is nippy and quite torquey. 

18 hours ago, craigie53 said:

i think you should consider doing a leak off test on your injectors, i know you said you had them tested by a diesel specialist, but it might be worth trying just to rule them out completely.

I did do a leak off test using the method outlined at http://www.fordwiki.co.uk/index.php?title=Injector_Leak-Off_Test.   I got readings of 39ml, 39ml 40ml and 41ml.  This is only marginally better than before I got the injector valves done (48ml, 46ml, 43ml and 39ml), and well outside the stated 25ml limit.  I think I will get back on to the company who did the injectors and ensure that they were tested before I got them back. 

I did a run and recorded the MAP as well  This is shown in the attached images.  I take it that the turbo is not the cause as the MAP does not drop until after the fuel pressure drops. 

Thanks very much for all your help and suggestions.  It would be annoying, and a relief at the same time, if it ends up being the injectors.

Screenshot 2016-08-29 10.35.53.png

Screenshot 2016-08-29 10.36.10.png

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i would get your injectors checked again, preferably with a different diesel specialist, you should not be getting readings like that still, find a delphi or good reputable specialist like  Swadincote Diesel, either take yours out to send and be reconditioned or order some reconditioned ones, or buy new :wacko:. i think it would be best to get some reconditioned ones, fit them and see if it makes any difference, 

because your injectors are leaking that much after new valves, you cannot rule out that it is your injectors causing this, all four look shot so there is a high probability it is them, but nothing is 100% certain.

are you sure they fitted new valves, and not just gave them a sonic clean in fluid, seems a bit suspect in my opinion.

 

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On 8/29/2016 at 5:35 PM, Stuartabates said:

I did a run and recorded the MAP as well  This is shown in the attached images.  I take it that the turbo is not the cause as the MAP does not drop until after the fuel pressure drops. 

The steep hill & MAP info helps, and it does look like injector leakage, as Craig said.

Looking at the Forscan run with the MAP, it is clear that the turbo was on full boost, and fuel at max, before the drop in pressure. On my car I get 1500Bar under those conditions, you only got 1100Bar. I think it should be higher than 1100Bar,  and excess leakage could cause that.

After a certain time, the pcm is recognising a problem, cuts the fuel pressure, cuts the turbo boost, then for some reason bumps up the pressure again, but that is all after the main event.

(I had been assuming it was on the flat (for some reason), and that the power, and fuel rail pressure were still building, prior to full turbo boosted air flow, so the 1000 to 1100 Bar pressure did not seem unreasonable then).

 

You may know this, but some others may not: Common rail injectors are two stage valves, sometimes called self-piloted.

In order to make a sub-millisecond solenoid valve, it must have a very small, light, quickly magnetisable armature. But that means it is quite weak, and can only operate a very small diameter valve. This small valve is between a small chamber, and a path back to the tank or filter (via leak off pipe). The chamber is connected to the fuel rail by an orifice which is appreciably smaller than the valve orifice. So normally this chamber is pressurised, and is quickly de-pressurised when the solenoid is energised.

Connected to this chamber is a piston, which is actually the main valve needle in the injector tip. When the chamber de-pressurises, the needle lifts to allow fuel into the cylinder. So the fuel pressure is used to operate the main valve. There is a picture of this on page 6 of the pdf below.

What all this means is that there should be a quite well defined flow to the leak off pipes when operating normally, but it will depend on rail pressure and energisation time. Any leakage past the small solenoid valve, or in various internal seals, will add to this leak off flow.

Assuming the 25ml figure is correct, then it looks like that is the problem.

https://www.fordownersclub.com/applications/core/interface/file/attachment.php?id=42491

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Thanks for your answers again.

On 29/08/2016 at 10:18 PM, craigie53 said:

i would get your injectors checked again, preferably with a different diesel specialist, you should not be getting readings like that still, find a delphi or good reputable specialist like  Swadincote Diesel, either take yours out to send and be reconditioned or order some reconditioned ones, or buy new :wacko:. i think it would be best to get some reconditioned ones, fit them and see if it makes any difference, 

because your injectors are leaking that much after new valves, you cannot rule out that it is your injectors causing this, all four look shot so there is a high probability it is them, but nothing is 100% certain.

are you sure they fitted new valves, and not just gave them a sonic clean in fluid, seems a bit suspect in my opinion.

 

They were done by one of the most reputable diesel specialists in Northern Ireland (I don't know if that means much).  He said he replaced the valves with genuine Delphi ones and he is very confident that the injectors would not be the issue.  He said they were not too bad to begin with and that he was very unsure that they were the cause of the issue.  I got them done to try and rule them out....  He said to leave them back in with him and he will retest them but, as you suggest, I would rather get a second opinion.

On 30/08/2016 at 0:28 AM, Tdci-Peter said:

What all this means is that there should be a quite well defined flow to the leak off pipes when operating normally, but it will depend on rail pressure and energisation time. Any leakage past the small solenoid valve, or in various internal seals, will add to this leak off flow.

 

Is there any other route inside the injector back to the leak off pipe other than through the valve?  There is a very slight nock, but there mustn't be excessive leakage into the cylinder as would that not give a bad knock?  I would like a definitive answer on the 25ml, but I know that leak off test are only supposed to be a guide.

I think the best option is to get a second opinion on the injectors and if they come back ok, then it looks like a pump.  Would you agree?  The though of spending more money on this car puts me off my dinner, but it's too late to go back now....

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25 minutes ago, Stuartabates said:

Is there any other route inside the injector back to the leak off pipe other than through the valve?

I am not at all sure what he means by "the valve", all of the inards of the injector are "valve" of some sort. Maybe he means the solenoid coil and control valve part.

Looking at the drawing on page 6 of the pdf, there are several possible leak paths to the leak-off port. The joints between each of the 4 main sections are possible paths. At 1000Bar or more, it does not need much.

Hmmm, I think I have just seen a flaw in my "leak off, high flow" theory. The test is 2 minutes at varying rpm, and you are getting about 15ml x 4 more than expected. At 60MPH & 50mpg, 2 minutes is 2 miles, is 180ml of fuel used. 60MPH is just cruising, and you were accelerating uphill when the error happens, so well under 50mpg, so well over 180ml of fuel per 2 minutes.

What I am getting to is that the leak-off flow is small compared to max fuel demand under load. So the leak off should not cause the rail pressure to drop by 400Bar or so. And the 4 injectors now look very similar.

So could it be the pump is unable to deliver? Or some other constriction in the fuel system? We know the pump can deliver high pressures, too high, if allowed. But that was at a lower flow (low turbo boost, lower air mass flow). Or does the leak flow increase rapidly at higher pressures? (the injector casing will stretch).

What are the fuel rail pressures at the test conditions, idle & 3800rpm with no load? My engine gave about 450Bar at idle, not rising much with revs on the driveway, that is one reason why I tested it while driving.

Does this happen with full throttle at higher rpm? The air flow & fuel demand would be even higher then. That would rule out most constrictions, but the pump will be turning faster, so it is not much help there.

I though we had this one pinned down, but it is wriggling out of grasp againwacko.png.

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I take it that thi is the valve that was replaced in my injectors-

http://www.gknationaldiesel.com/delphi-control-valve.htm

i know what you are getting at in that it's impossible to know exactly what the injectors are doing at the point of the fault occurring and it's difficult to know if the excess leak off is enough to affect the pressure. 

I took readings at different revs when stationary and compared them to readings someone on some forum gave as ballparks.  They all seemed OK, actually in the higher regions. It doesn't happen at higher revs. I take it that the pump is then able to supply the pressure as it is spinning faster.  What are the characteristics of a pump that is on it's way out due to "wear and tear" (not the issue with the earlier pumps of metallic swarf) ?

I might be able to borrow a pump to try it.  I don't think they are the hardest to change.

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1 hour ago, Stuartabates said:

What are the characteristics of a pump that is on it's way out due to "wear and tear"

The short answer is "I don't know"!!!

A longer answer is that diesel has good lubrication properties, and wear in the general & gradual sense should be minimal. I have worked with high pressure valves (400Bar air), and I know that the small, hard seats needed to seal these pressures, are very easily damaged. The tiniest solid impurities can leave marks in the seats. Then the valves start to leak. The same can happen to pistons & bores, minute scratches lead to leakage. The pump contains pistons and non-return valves.

Leaks in the internal parts of the pump will allow a reverse flow, that is dependent on the pressure, but should be relatively constant with speed. Let us say that at 1500rpm, the pump should have 10% spare flow capacity, above the engine's needs, but it has 15% internal leakage. That is -5% overall, not enough. Speed up to 2250rpm, & assume the rpm and desired fuel flow rate both increase by the same 50%. The ideal pump still has 10% spare capacity, but the fixed leakage has shrunk to 10% of the bigger flow, so the pump can cope with the demand.

This all a bit hypothetical, but I think that for high pressure, fixed displacement pumps like this, the general principle is right, as it speeds up (at constant delivery pressure), the accumulated effects of damage ("wear") become a little less significant.

Hmm, I seem to be talking myself into condemning the pump here, when I originally though it was the least likely suspect. Perhaps I should have stuck to the 1st line of this reply, and shut up!

The biggest argument against the excess leak off idea is the consistency between the 4 injectors. The other route for fuel is into the engine, but this should generate smoke, or poor mpg, or other poor performance.

Talk of wear brings me to the next point, which is that in any work on the fuel system after the filter, extreme cleanliness and care is essential. Not just the grime on the surface, but dirt in the threads and fittings. Also simply undoing and doing up tight fittings will generate wear debris. As you have already worked on the pump & injectors, I am sure you know this, but it is for the benefit of anyone else "misguided" enough to read this! Plan the job and allow time to do it properly.

The pipes are intended for single use. If re-used & they seal ok, then I do not see a problem. But do not exceed the recommended torque, or they could be weakened to the point of total failure.

The GK Delphi control valve looks similar in principle to the control valve in the diagram in the Delphi pdf. That is probably the part of the injector most susceptible to impurity damage the leads to increased leak off. I presume he checked the other bits like the injector tip, needle valve and control orifices.

Do you have a link for the reference pressures that you saw? This info can be hard to come by, and I like to collect it!

Peter.

 

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to be honest if it was me, i would change all 4 injectors, i don't think you have anything to lose by doing this, all 4 are leaking above acceptable levels even after valve changes.

those codes are the most frustrating codes to get on a mondeo, i would do your injectors first, it all depends on what you want to spend on it, when they run right, mondeo's are great, i always use to add 2 stroke oil to my tank every now and again, i sold mine 3 weeks ago with 130000 on the clock and still original injectors in it, so who knows.

does forscan recode your injectors for you, like fordiag does, try recoding them and see if it makes any difference.

 

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20 hours ago, Tdci-Peter said:

Do you have a link for the reference pressures that you saw? This info can be hard to come by, and I like to collect it!

I can't find it.  I will have another look and let you know.  I have been on that many different sites this past while about this...

20 hours ago, Tdci-Peter said:

Hmm, I seem to be talking myself into condemning the pump here, when I originally though it was the least likely suspect. Perhaps I should have stuck to the 1st line of this reply, and shut up!

That brings me on to my next point.  Through a few different phone calls I managed to get in contact with a proper Delphi specialist in Northern Ireland that I didn't know about as he is deals mainly with the trade and he is a couple of hours drive away (that is counted as a very long drive over here).  He knows the guy that did my injectors and he was able to tell me that the fix that he did would have cured my problem, had it been the injectors at fault.  He did say that a proper reconditioned injector would make the car run better, better fuel economy etc, but it would not make a lot of difference with the leak off issue.  Most other diesel specialists I have talked to basically say to send them over and we will test them for £35 each, but he was confident enough to say that they were not the issue in my case.

He said that it is more than likely the pump and was able to tell me that the pumps do wear and this does lead to issues, like what I am having.  So that answers the question I asked you yesterday about the symptoms of pump wear and tear.

18 hours ago, craigie53 said:

to be honest if it was me, i would change all 4 injectors, i don't think you have anything to lose by doing this, all 4 are leaking above acceptable levels even after valve changes.

those codes are the most frustrating codes to get on a mondeo, i would do your injectors first, it all depends on what you want to spend on it, when they run right, mondeo's are great, i always use to add 2 stroke oil to my tank every now and again, i sold mine 3 weeks ago with 130000 on the clock and still original injectors in it, so who knows.

does forscan recode your injectors for you, like fordiag does, try recoding them and see if it makes any difference.

 

I have a lot of money to lose by changing all 4 injectors.  Forscan does recode injectors.  I have tried resetting them a couple of times with no change.  I am still not 100% sure of the leak off test on the fordwiki website.  I have since read of other people having "good" injectors that leak well over 25ml and the car still runs fine.

I can get a hold of a pump from an Mondeo that has stopped running and try it in mine.  I'll just need to make sure that it's not a pump fault that it wont start....  I know that these are so sensitive to the tiniest bit of dirt.  As you say Peter, I'll just have to take my time and clean everything thoroughly and take my time.

 

 

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is it possible too much air is causing the problem, i think i remember somewhere  that you can attach a clear pipe from the filter to the pump to see if there is a lot of air bubbles.

memory is vague on it, so can't remember it exactly.

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2 hours ago, craigie53 said:

you can attach a clear pipe from the filter to the pump

Nice idea, but:

On 28/08/2016 at 8:56 PM, Stuartabates said:

I put a section of clear pipe in the line from the filter to the pump.

Tick.wink.png

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my bad, never saw that peter, will be interesting to see if this gets sorted for him, hope it does.

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Thanks both of you for all your help. I'll be going over tonight to try this other pump. I will let you know what happens...

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Just an update - the car I could have got a pump from the try in my car was a no go.  I am 90% sure that the pump was starting to break down.  I found a pump on eBay that was reconditioned 20k miles ago and the car is being broken due to turbo issues.  I'll give it a good check over, worth a try and it wasn't that expensive.  I'll keep you updated.  Thanks again.

 

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are you replacing the fuel pump or garage doing it , requires special tools to remove.

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On 4 September 2016 at 1:29 PM, iantt said:

are you replacing the fuel pump or garage doing it , requires special tools to remove.

Doing it myself. Borrowing the tools to do it. Thanks for the heads up. 

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  • 4 weeks later...

Sorry for taking so long but I finally got time to change the pump.  It was a handy enough job, just had to modify the tool that holds the sprocket a bit.  It cured the problem and now the car is running great.

Based on what I was told by my local Delphi specialist - if anyone else has this problem there is a basic test that a diesel specialist can do that just tests the leak off of the injector (not spray etc), which will give a good idea whether it is injectors are at fault.  This test is around £5 per injector.  I managed to get a pump for £100 off eBay, tool was £30 and it took me around 3 hours.  I know there is risk with this and the injectors are the most common issue, but I may as well pass my experience on to others in the hope it will help.

I want to say thanks again for all your help on this forum, it was extremely helpful.

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