Zetec S Fiesta Timing Issues, Non Starter

[Jaiimez]

Hello so the water pump went a few weeks ago on the mums V reg 1.4 Fiesta Zetec, unfortunately her other half decided to get a bit adventurous and do the job himself, which involved removing the timing belt, however he didn't lock the cams or crank before he did it, and we think he's managed to screw up the alignment, I've toyed with it and tried to get them back into alignment but am not having any luck it seems currently whenever you try to turn it over it doesn't fire, I've embedded a video of what it does (ignore the engine running in the background we was having to jump it from my Focus Diesel because it's battery was drained.

We are completely lost as to whats causing this, and alot of the guides i've seen online only seem to be of use if you lock the cams/crank, there isn't much in the way of how to correctly reset the timing if you do manage to !Removed! it up.

The only issues i'm having is a few misunderstandings based on the information online not seeming to match the car itself, the internet is telling me the cam closest to the driver is the inlet cam, however by physically looking at the cam it looks to be the exhaust cam, and b) the use of the timing pin, it says to turn the crank until the crank web hits the pin, but I don't know if it's meant to be hitting the bottom or top of the pin.

 

The video is here and all help is appreciated, i'm very new to this kinda stuff engines is a little out of my leagues and i've learnt a tonne since this happened but i'm still learning so please try to make it as simple as possible for me.

 

https://www.dropbox.com/s/latcunihcbcnegk/Video 29-09-2016%2C 17 39 10.mov?dl=0

[iantt]

oh dear, thats broke, no compression, all to late to fix that now, bent valves. not the first time ive seen or heard that . scrapyard unless you want to spend alot of time and money fixing it by someone who is a mechanic.

[Jaiimez]

I don't mean to disrespect your knowledge, this is me asking more to develop my own knowledge, what makes you convinced that the Valves are bent? Is there an audio clue in the video that you can hear them damaged. I ask also because a friend of mine is a Citroen mechanic and he said if we'd had of damaged the valves you would be able to feel it when trying to hand crank it, which we did before trying to start it from the ignition.

I just want to be 100% sure that it is a lost cause before we give up hope and break it down for parts and buy a new car.

[iantt]

you can tell by the sound the engine makes, theres no pulsing of compression , once you have bent the valves cranking engine over , there will be no compression. you could be very, very lucky and have valves opening when piston is half way down bores.

time it up properly and try it again. what timing tools do you have and what torque was crank tightened to, thats critical.

[Tdci-Peter]

9 hours ago, Jaiimez said:

The only issues i'm having is a few misunderstandings based on the information online not seeming to match the car itself,

I would suggest your first step is to buy a Haynes for the car. These manuals are far from perfect, with many omissions and some bad errors, these days, but they are still better than some of the confusing advice off the net. There should be reasonable details of the procedure there.

I am hoping Ian is wrong, and the valves not been damaged, but he is right most of the time, I am afraid! Even a slight collision can bend a valve enough to ruin compression.

You should be able to confirm the inlet vs exhaust valve, as when the camshaft turns the correct way, the exhaust will open first, then there will be an small overlap as exhaust closes & inlet opens. And you can confirm approx tdc by probing the spark plug hole, to feel the piston at the top of its travel. That should check the timing pin location.

So have a go it you want to learn, it might be good experience even if not ultimately successful!

[iantt]

exhaust cam is the rear one , next to the exhaust manifold, inlet cam is front one next inlet manifold.

[Jaiimez]

We have a sealey locking kit with the 6mm bar 3 pin/bolts then the small loop pin, we also have a compression testing kit.

so as far as tdc your saying use a screwdriver the get the approx tdc then try to put the timing pin in and then just adjust until it slots in?

The other thing that has been a little vague from what I've seen is the locations the valves need to be. The teardrop shaped metal on the cams I've been lead to believe the inlet cam needs to be positioned at approx 2oc assuming straight up is 12 and the exhaust has to be at what, abut 10?

Also we do have a Haynes manual but we couldn't find much to do with resetting it up most of it is more telling you how to lock it so you don't screw it in the first place.

[stef123]

I agree with Ian on the lack of compression. The sound that engine is making is just a constant noise, there is no 'toof toof' type sound. 

You wont feel any valve/piston contact when turning over by hand if the damage is already done and valves are bent. 

[iantt]

the position of the cams are directly related to you slotting the bar into the rear of the cams . so you cant have either of the cams in the wrong place.

so as peter said, screw the crank pin just before tdc, then turn crank until it touches, then see how far out the slots are out at rear of cams, i doubt you will be anywhere near getting the 6mm bar in, but at least you will know how far out it is.

[Jaiimez]

18 minutes ago, iantt said:

the position of the cams are directly related to you slotting the bar into the rear of the cams . so you cant have either of the cams in the wrong place.

so as peter said, screw the crank pin just before tdc, then turn crank until it touches, then see how far out the slots are out at rear of cams, i doubt you will be anywhere near getting the 6mm bar in, but at least you will know how far out it is.

and then I assume lock the crank and disconnect the cams and turn them until the slots line up? then put it all back together and try again, failing that we have a remote camera we'll see if we can get it in to spot any damage to the Valves, problem is I don't know how far out the cams went when he disconnected them, the 2 slots should be perfectly parallel correct? some things I've read say the slots will be slightly offset.

[iantt]

yep, so as long as the crank bolt has been tightened correctly.

so check how far out the cams are with crank touching pin, the cam slots are ofset so when you come to lining them up so you cant get them 180°out.

if the cams are out of alignment and assuming no damage , to get cams back in there correct position, you will need to turn crank away from locking pin a small way off tdc so this enables cams to turn and valves clear the piston, you will be doing this all with the cam pulley bolts loose

[iantt]

once the cams are lined up with bar inserted, turn crank back up to pin. this should all be lined up now, retighten the cam pilley bolts to correct torque making sure nothing moves.

[Jaiimez]

20 minutes ago, iantt said:

once the cams are lined up with bar inserted, turn crank back up to pin. this should all be lined up now, retighten the cam pilley bolts to correct torque making sure nothing moves.

 Ahh that was where I was worried was that they were 180 out so basically if they're 180 out the bar won't fit but if I turn them 180 it still without issue, cool. He has been dealing with loosenin the crank and to my knowledge hasn't been using a torque wrench what should the wrench be set at for the correct torque? 

[iantt]

you should use a new crank bolt, you will need to tighten the bolt before doing anything else regarding lining the cams up etc.

you should have 2 pins in the kit, the thicker one is for tighting crank, the thinner pin for timing

torque is 40nm then 90° . that is very tight.