Mondeo TDCi mk4 limp mode and several DTCs

[Mutti82]

1 hour ago, Tdci-Peter said:

That test run is quite specific in putting all suspicion on the ABS, or its connections. The other previous likely suspect was the TCM, but this test shows that unit to be ok.

The PCM error you have had before, it may be a side effect of the test. The BCM error (rear climate control or sunroof switch) seems unconnected.

As you have said, all the symptoms could be down to an ABS fault, applying the brakes and cutting power when not wanted. If it was the wheel sensors, these would normally raise specific codes, these U faults are more likely to be an internal error in the module itself.

I would repeat the 60 ohm resistance test I outlined on 31 Oct, as it is easy to do. It tests the integrity of the HS CAN bus from end to end, and into the PCM & IC modules. It does not test the spur leading to the ABS. I would re-run the self tests the next time it misbehaves. But then I think it may be time to replace the ABS module, or more likely, the entire ABS unit, as it may have to be removed anyway to get the module out, and the electronics may not be available separately.

It may be possible to have the unit tested & repaired, but I have not heard of this being done.

Somehow I knew that you would suspect ABS module more than those sensors. Cause after I ran those self-tests, my mind turned also towards control module. Damn. Still hoping and believing and praying that it'd be just corrosion or some ***** in abs module connector, because fault always comes only when wet weather. But preparing for the worst.

Found some finnish company which is specialized repairing all brands control modules, like Sinspeed or Ecutesting in U.K. They have listed all modules and other parts where they have found common faults. In that list there is Ford Mondeo ABS/ESP control module repair 350€, 12 months guarantee.

If abs module is the faulty one and beyond repairing, I looked some part pictures from catcar.info and it gives two separate "part id" for pump and module. Link below. So could that module still be replaced separately?
https://www.catcar.info/ford/?lang=en&l=bWFya2V0PT1ldXJvfHxjYXRfaWQ9PTExMDAyfHxjYWJicj09R0NBMnx8dGhrPT0zfHxzdD09NjB8fHN0cz09eyIyMCI6IkV1cm9wZSIsIjMwIjoiTW9uZGVvIENBMiAyMDA3LSIsIjQwIjoiMiBDaGFzc2lzIiwiNTAiOiIyMDYwOSBDaGFzc2lzLkFudGktTG9jayBCcmFraW5nIFN5c3RlbSIsIjYwIjoiMjA2MDkwNSBBbnRpLUxvY2sgQnJha2luZyBTeXN0ZW0ifXx8YWxwaGE9PTJ8fGdyb3VwPT0yMDYwOXx8c2VjdD09MjAxNkFIQXx8c2V0PT1BMjIwNjA5fHxpbWc9PUcwMTYyNzAyMDZ8fGYxMj09LTI2ODM4ODYwOCsxMzE%3D

In parts list below picture, part nr 1857636 seems to be right one for my car. And searching from originparts.de with that, it gives  BG91-2C013-MD with price of 292€. Not too bad when compared to brand new whole unit 950€.

UPDATE: After closer look of the texts in that DTC picture, last one mentions "Hill Launch Assist not available" displayed if it's fitted with ESP. Same dash lights and texts appeared as when fault comes on. So maybe when ABS loses comms to TCM it messes up shifting and when comms lost to BCM it can't activate luxuries co-operating with brakes, like HLA.

[Tdci-Peter]

1 hour ago, Mutti82 said:

Found some finnish company which is specialized repairing all brands control modules, like Sinspeed or Ecutesting in U.K. They have listed all modules and other parts where they have found common faults. In that list there is Ford Mondeo ABS/ESP control module repair 350€, 12 months guarantee.

From the intermittent & humidity sensitive nature of this problem, I think there is a reasonable chance it will be repairable. After all, it works quite often. That big connector between the module & the modulator could be corroded, or just some dirt on the pcb, that can be cleaned off.

Getting at it could be a pig, but that is so often the case.

It would be good If there were independent reviews on the Finnish repair company, rather than just edited reviews or advertising from the company.

[Mutti82]

Yeah I'll try to ask some user experiences of that company before sending anything to them. First I will take off battery and it's housing myself, seeing if there is already visible corrosion or wire damage in wiring or connector outside the module. Going to take some time and warm garage, module should be at back of engine bay, near windshield at drivers corner? Why in hell it has been put to a place where even it's connector can't be seen without ripping out quarter of engine bay's stuff. :D

This morning when car had stayed overnight in +2 celsius and still wet weather, I made those On Demand Self-Tests before even starting it. Picture below. Now there was also lost comms to ECM/PCM (U0100). So yes, propably that PCM fault earlier has been just victim of ABS module faulting.

 

[Mutti82]

Had Christmas trip to 250km away. Left for Helsinki day before yesterday, road was all wet and there was two rains during trip. Car drove fine for first 230km, I was almost surprised. But then one loser decided to drive 10 km/h under limits in leftmost lane and had to tail him 8km flashing lights and sounding horn before he understood that should move away from front. While driving behind him water just sprayed hard over my car and nice... fault came in again. Last 15km I had to either stick pedal to floor if needed to accelerate (otherwise just bounced badly) or press it just teenyweeny little bit to maintain speed. Survived to finish somehow. 

Today trip to home was ahead. Car malfunctioned right from the start. Weather was wet all weekend so this time fault had not gone "dry" even car stood still 2 days. Decided that I will try to limp outside downtown no matter what because there was so much traffic and had no clever chance to pull over. But hey, while I had driven something like 5-10km bouncing ahead, suddenly car started to work normal, even ESP light had stayed on (maybe to info that there had been some error... no *****...). I just kept driving and no problems came for the last 240km even it rained twice very hard and of course wet road all the time. So once again idea of "something drying up when engine is warm and enough time has passed" came up. Of course I had no chance to pull over to weather free place, look for wet areas etc when fault started... and no use of it after it had gone.

My parents are already enraged of this ***** too. Always frightened that when I will crash badly if it paralyzes in middle of rush traffic in motorways. Car has been to three different Ford service now and no one has idea what could be behind this fault. Father is ex-serviceman for Ford, tractors though, but knows right channels and manufacturer responsibilities in cases like this where there is very fundamental problem, what is even endangering people when brake systems etc fail during high speeds in rain when those systems are needed most. Father told that going to start calling tomorrow to some of his old Ford contacts and trying to get manufacturer to do something about this *****. I don't care if car has to stay a month in Ford service to find the problem. I'm not going to pay anymore of some explorative searhing without even a clue of reason.

So once again I made those On Demand test just a moment ago. This time testing one module at a time, always reading and erasing DTCs before moving to next one so that could separate what codes appear after which module. Funny pattern... no matter what module I tested, DTC reads always found ABS module reporting U0126 (lost comms to SASM) and U0452 (invalid data from RCM) and no other codes from any other module.

[Mutti82]

Had this afternoon chance to check my car in warm garage without a rush. So took out air filter housing, battery and it's housing and inspected ABS module, connector and everything nearby. Not even signs of damp. Also inspected all ABS sensor from wheels, all ok. Almost threw towel to ring but decided to try my father's OBD-reader/live stream device, not expensive one but dad offered me to try it out and teach it to him. Noted something very strange... MAP showed 74 kPa no matter if engine wasn't running or it was idling. Lowest measured sea level barometric pressure has been 87 kPa (in middle of tornado). I started to press gas pedal, had to go up to 4000 rpm and MAP value showed just almost 100 kPa which should be normal barometer all the time. Double checked the measure with my Forscan mobile + bluetooth OBD reader and it showed the same. 

What if the fault isn't related to water or damp... but to low air pressure, which as we know is usually most lowest when weather is rainy/wet. We took off MAP sensor and it was again very oily, cleaned it. It appears to be some unknown brand spare part, no FoMoCo logos on it. Someone in this forum had written much before me that he had same Engine malfunction + ESP lights symptoms and it turned out to be faulty MAP sensor causing bad overboost and then loss of boost. Some garage had told him that he should buy new turbo. So we started to think that what if my MAP sensor also is really faulty one, telling turbo to boost more than really needed and turbo just has it's limits. Turbo overloads and drops all boost to zero which would make engine bounce hard when trying to accelerate but goes with steady juddering when just holding steady light gas. Any sense in this? Cause fact is that MAP sensor readings were just lunatic. Gave also thought to split in turbo pipes but if turbo boost is lost via split in hose... still MAP sensor should measure at least barometric 100 kPa. And when MAP is part of engine torque calculation together with MAF, it would also explain that P1719 Engine torque signal DTC....

 

UPDATE: Of course it's possible that MAP shows differential pressure compared to barometric? In that case it would mean that there is all the time at least 74 kPa boost in system and goes up to 100 kPa? But also in that case readings would be nuts... how there could be already boost when engine isn't even running? :D PETER!! Is there any sense in this? Just that if there is, I'll order new MAP sensor asap. Some Facet-brand costs 25€ and FoMoCo 78€. At the moment there is some aftermarket brand installed. Also decided to back up a bit and concentrate to those dtc PCM P062E (which by the injector circuit group 2 meaning inj #2 and #3, not bank 2 as described earlier) and ABS U0401 which ALWAYS appear when fault starts, and reappear no matter I clear dtc memory and restart car but fault reappears the second. Cause also the bouncing and unable to handle any gas could be like two cylinders misfiring badly because of electrical circuit failure. Found instructions to measure those injector connectors b+, earthing and injectors internal resistance in case.

[Tdci-Peter]

22 hours ago, Mutti82 said:

MAP shows differential pressure compared to barometric?

My MAP always reads about 1 Bar (100kPa) when idling or engine off. I have not tried comparing it to barometric, our usual range is 980mB (98kPa) to 1025mB (102.5kPa), so it is not easy to detect such small changes on my usual display. It does go up to 2.4Bar (240kPa) or more when on full turbo. High rpm but no real power (or over-run) just gets a few kPa above the normal 100kPa.

74kPa is decidedly wrong, unless you live on a 2500m high mountain. Certainly worth fixing. I can not see how a MAP calibration error could generate those U  DTCs specific to the ABS, but it could be contributing to the problem.

Did you manage to inspect the pcb(s) and internal connections on the ABS module?

For test purposes, it might be possible to temporarily remove the main ABS fuse. This will cause an error, and probably go into limp mode, but if it cures the bouncing, it will increase suspicion on the ABS unit.

[Mutti82]

I didn't have chance to inspect inside of ABS module. I suppose you're right about MAP generating U-codes to ABS when doing KOEO. 

Car stayed once again overnight in +2 and very high humidity. First start this morning, car drove bit over 400m and once again fault came in. I read fuel rail pressure all the time and it was steady and responsed to throttle pedal immediately. I had yesterday hint from Ford Findand chief engineer to try switching from D to S,  if it were somehow transmission related problem. No change, kept bouncing. For first time fault came so that my father could also see it and look/listen engine. Told me to raise revs to about 2500/min in place and hold it steady. Whole car vibrated at 1500-2000/min while slowly revving up. When reached 2500, it held for 5secs and then revs dropped to 2000, then back 2500, 2000, 2500... it felt like it was cutting fuel injection for some reason. DTCs told once again injector circuit 2 electrics malfunctioning and ABS receiving silly information from PCM. We opened injector cover to inspect if there was any water, damp or visible splices in wirings or connectors. No luck. Engine had run for 15min and fault gone, revs holding steady and without vibration even at 1500-2000.

But for some reason engine sounded different above injectors #2 and #3 (cyl 3 and 4) than above injectors #1 and #4 (cyl 1 and 2). Like louder knocking from cyl 3/4 end of engine. We gave a thought of injector internal electrics fault, but there has been no white smoke etc. which would be common and typical symptoms. I called local diesel specialist, told him everything about symptoms, fault usual conditions etc. He said that clearly points to problem in fuel injection someway. But haven't seen in 20 years injectors failing this slowly and faulting in wet conditions only. And usually injectors are broken/worn mechanically, not electrically. Injectors faults with cold engine could make sense, because when warming up they start to work fine. But the humidity won't affect them and faults have also started after 1,5h driving in rain when engine is warm. Told also that what he knows of ABS/ESP, if it wanted PCM to cut fuel when at full stop already, PCM would recognize that as nonsense and log it. But if injector misbehaves for some electrical reason, low voltage or wiring problem, PCM sees faulty sum of voltage signals in particular circuit, cuts the whole circuit and gives circuit-based DTC (as it has been giving always) because diesels have no knocking sensor for more accurate pinpoint. And ABS/ESP gets inaccurate and unexpected info from PCM about engine torque/power/running which is critical thing for safety, it lights ESP-light and tells PCM to activate Limp Mode.

Because we have already replaced PCM, he told me to concentrate back on wiring. It would fit to fault after overnight in humid and then drying with idle or running in dry roads, also to fault coming when driving in wet conditions. Wires with high resistance would limit normal voltage to injectors, making them work with inadequately but still in some way. He sent me Ford/s official technical diagram about pinout and wire colours going from pcm to injectors. I'm going to measure resitances when I have chance. If nothing is found, he could take injectors out and test them of course, cost 200-300€ + possible reconditioning or service. I dunno... this all just keeps going circle.

[Mutti82]

I don't know if this actually has anything to do with my issue but decided to share my experience from last few days. Temperature rose again from -10-20 degrees to +1-3 and roads are back to wet/wet snow. But my car hasn't had any symptoms for first time in 2 years even it has stayed two nights in that weather and I've been driving in city and highways during this time. Only thing that has changed, just before temps warmed up again...

As I told earlier, there has been this weird thing that my alternator has kept charging with about 15 V no matter what the weather or temperature has been, even after driving 1h in highway speeds. Last saturday I found this post from finnish Ford forum where someone guided how to reset Ford battery monitoring system (by turning ign power on but not starting, then pressing rear fog light button 5 times, then immediately after that "emergency lights" button 3 times; battery light will blink for few seconds). I changed my battery bit over a year ago, after old factory fitted battery had fully discharged for about 5 times, but didn't know of this BMS reset thing. But okay, I recharged my battery first with external "clever charger" to make sure it is really full, then reset BMS, After that Forscan showed battery age 0 days, set new min-max limits to battery current live read (much higher max because changed from 80Ah/700A to 85 Ah/800A), battery current value is now also much steadier... and for the first time during new battery, charging voltage started to alternate between 13,8 - 15,0 V depenging of battery temperature, not just pushing this 14,9 - 15,1 V all time. Also battery voltage dropped last week after staying overnight in -5 degrees Celcius to 11,8V, but now has stayed between 12,3 - 12,7 V.

Is it possible that my car has assumed all this time after battery change, that it's still fitted with factory fitted less powerful 5 times discharged battery which requires "full power" if wanted it to recharge even a bit, cause there is so high internal resistance etc? And thinking my battery is still 80Ah and not charging it full, thinking it's at 100% capasity. Cause for example today I have driven 4-5 short trips in city but it highest recharge voltage after crank has been something like 14,5 V and lowered quite fast to 14,1V. 

To put this all together, there has been quite big mess up with my car's battery and charging all this time, even if it isn't related to my basic problem. But as known, this voltage issues can make big bugs to electrics....

[Mutti82]

Coming back to this subject after a while. Three months passed with no issues, even we had all major PoS weathers here. Symptoms went away after I did battery monitoring system reset at begin of January. Those charge voltage issues disappeared and I thought already that reason for this intermittent problem was some sort of voltage spikes messing car systems.

Yesterday we were driving home 600km in wet snow / wet conditions, somewhere near 0 degrees Celsius, once again. Car drove just fine the first 500km when we drove in middle of nowhere with no traffic. Then with got to four-lane highway. Changed to left lane to pass those sunday-cruisers, not even remembering the issue. One moron drove left lane 90km/h (100km/h speed limit) and I have to stay behind him for about 20 seconds in total washout spray. He changed to right lane finally, so I decided to pass him and accelarated with semi-pressed pedal... and in that second felt bounce, then all lights lit to dash again and ride from hell started. :D Pulled over to nearby gas station, read DTCs and hey... there was this P0299 - Turbo underboost condition. First time when car noticed something else than electrical issue. I just restarted car but bouncing kept going. So decided to keep on driving towards home, though chose "old highway" running beside new one cause no traffic. I put Cruise On to 70km/h, let it drove just steady and somewhere halfway in that 15km path, suddenly car just started going normal again, though MIL etc lights were lit cause didn't restart engine. So something either cooled down or dried up when had chance to drive alone with no wet spraying from front. "Old highway" came to end and I had to pull back to new one. Drove fine all flats and hills for 30km cruise at 80km/h, then just suddenly started bouncing and rough running without acceleration or else, though there was again this traffic and water spraying.

Usually intermittent DTCs have gone after engine restart but this P0299 have stayed in memory now after 6 off/on. Had once again a long conversation with local Ford dealer mechanic. He suggested following options:

- MAP sensor is failing and showing erratical readings when getting damp (MAP location is very water sensitive and is all the time dirty from water or dried sand) 
- There is leak somewhere in turbo hoses (which just opens up more during bad weather conditions)
- Turbo is clogged up and when getting moisture inside turns into "clue-tar-*****" cocktail, causing vanes sticking, then drying up when driving steady long enough with no need for boost
- EGR sticking because of same reason as turbo mentioned above and making turbo lose power
- Turbo is in need of maintenance

Options 2 and 5 are supported with that fact that there has been this progressively strengthtening whistling for two years, what can be heard inside cabin even in highway speeds when accelerating or driving steady uphill... in other words, when turbo comes in.

Does anyone of you have similar issues with Mondeo, S-Max or C-Max with same 2.0 TDCi 140PS engine? Intermittent power loss, DTC P0299... what was the solution?

[Tdci-Peter]

On 03/04/2017 at 2:49 PM, Mutti82 said:

Usually intermittent DTCs have gone after engine restart but this P0299 have stayed in memory now after 6 off/on.

Have the ABS related DTCs happened again since the battery reset?

That P0299 error has quite a lot of possible causes, I have been having it on my car a few times lately. It has no effect on the car, and I can see the turbo is working pretty well, as I can monitor the boost pressure (MAP) at all times. My EGR is currently blanked. I may try changing the air filter, though the current one is under a year old (<5k miles).

So back to your car, was the battery voltage problem causing the ABS errors. Or is there still an underlying problem in the ABS or its wiring loom?

I find it hard to see that a minor turbo error, or small MAP error, would cause dramatic "bouncing" or stop-go driving, but I can imagine the ABS doing this.

Though I see your car has a powershift transmission. Maybe that is getting confused by minor engine power variations caused by a turbo or MAP problem, and shifting gears to make the matter worse.

Some Mondeo turbo actuators have been very prone to internal electrical bad connections. If it is not the ABS, then maybe that is the next suspect.

[Mutti82]

That ABS related DTC appeared also last time when fault came on, but this time it vanished as soon as keys off and on again. Previously it didn't. I got bit better USB-based switched ELM327 cable and hooked it up with Forscan. Following DTCs found permanent (permanent because car is now restarted like 50 times after the fault was last time, that long trip):

PCM: P2456:92-28, P0299:00-68, P062E:12-68
BCM: C2003:49-28, B1130:07-28, B113D:14-2F

Those BCM codes have occured also some other time but never have caused any symptoms and when read fresh, all have said MIL light isn't lit for this dtc. So can you make any sense or new lines to inspect from those PCM codes? Pressure issues charged air system and now also in DPF... soot accumulated in turbo vanes/actuator (or egr and affects to turbo) and in dpf? Though both could be once again electrical faults.

[Mutti82]

Hour ago it started to rain wet snow from full sky so took car to drive. Headed highway in hope to get the fault on again. I didn't thought. But recorded live stream all the time driving 80-110 km/h. BARO was steady 980 hPa (while Finland official forecast shows 1007 hPa to my home city, strange). I don't know exactly what are normal values but... driving in those conditions MAP showed 1,5 - 1,7 bar at 80 km/h and 1,8 - 2,0 bar at 110 km/h when driving flat road. When making hard accelation and then putting Cruise on, MAP value descended VERY slowly from momentary max 2,6 bar and remained at those (to my eye) quite high values. I could hear that whistle from under bonnet to inside in those highway speeds even driving all the time quite flat road and should not need to boost so much. Then headed to my friend with car tuning hobby, told him to listen that is that whistle abnormal in his ears. Opened bonnet and listened while I pressed pedal, his opinion was that whistle is quite loud, pointed it coming from right about there where turbo is located, he didn't know that though so neutral opinion. Also took him to a spin and he was bit concerned of how clearly and strengthening that whistle was even inside car at highway speeds.

His thoughts: Slow decending of boost would point sticking vanes? Also for some reason boosts quite high for normal daily drive? Also that difference between car measured BARO and official one is weird.

[Tdci-Peter]

9 hours ago, Mutti82 said:

His thoughts: Slow decending of boost would point sticking vanes? Also for some reason boosts quite high for normal daily drive? Also that difference between car measured BARO and official one is weird.

There seem to be two possibilities for the BARO sensor. Either it is just read from the MAP sensor before engine start, or when idling, or it is a component mounted on the PCM. The basic sensor is small & cheap, so that is quite possible. But your Baro error is only about 2.7%, which is in bounds for a cheap, uncalibrated sensor. So that may be a red herring.

I am also not sure of its purpose. The MAP gives the air pressure with no need for barometric compensation. Maybe it is used with the MAF to compensate that for air pressure changes. They are not really Mass Flow sensors, just basic thermal ("hot wire") sensors.

Does the boost pressure drop quickly when the accelerator is completely released? At rpm below about 2000 on my car, MAP reading drops immediately to 1bar (100kPa) then.

1.6 to 2 Bar at 80 to 110kph (50 to 70mph) sounds a bit high. At 50mph on a flat road, I get about 1.3Bar, and a bit less with the EGR not blanked. At 70mph I can get about 1.6Bar, though the slightest gradient or acceleration & it goes up to over 2Bar.

If the 2.6Bar is correct, the turbo itself seems healthy. Maybe the actuator or vanes are sticking a bit.

I still suspect a bus related electrical fault is responsible for the kangaroo bouncing & ABS faults, this P0299 & turbo problems sound a bit different to me.

 

 

[Mutti82]

Okay so bit high boost pressures in normal driving. By the way how does EGR blanking affect to boost pressures? Haven't studied so far yet. :) I removing and cleaning turbo seems to need car lifts and good tools so propably better to leave it's and EGRs checking/cleaning to professionals.

But if the problem still remains in ABS system, one thing I haven't done is take off rear ABS sensors, because they seemed to be pretty tough when I checked them. And I was 200km away from home at weekend trip so didn't want to risk that they break and car doesn't move even that much. Rear sensors propably control TCS? Could explain TCS light which ALWAYS lits first when fault comes. Also once or twice has flashed randomly and small "misfire" is felt, usually 1-5min after that light show starts. Weird thing is that no ABS light ever, just TCS.

[Tdci-Peter]

8 hours ago, Mutti82 said:

By the way how does EGR blanking affect to boost pressures?

I don't know for sure. It is just something I have noticed on my 1.8. On a flat or slightly downhill road, boost pressures seem a little higher with the blanking plate fitted than without.

My PCM knows the EGR is not working properly when blanked, though it gives no error codes. It rams it hard open all the time it is in use, when blanked. When un-blanked, it controls it in mid range. So it must know it is not getting the desired EGR flow. I suspect it closes the turbo vanes a little to boost the exhaust back pressure, to try to increase the EGR flow from exhaust to inlet.

Re the ABS: I would say that basic ABS functions are all handled within the ABS unit. The wheel sensors will be wired direct to this unit. The lack of ABS internal errors suggests the wheel sensors are ok.

But ESP and possibly Traction control functions involve the HS-CAN bus. There are other modules, maybe a Steering sensor module and a Yaw rate module, and possibly a Vehicle Dynamics module, all connected to the ABS via the CAN bus. When the ABS/TCS faults appear, CAN bus related fault codes also appear, if I recall correctly.

 

 

[Mutti82]

There has been no CAN bus related fault codes for a long time, not for at least last 5-10 times when fault has come. And that ABS related U-code has now always disappeared after first restart, so being only temporary, not permanent as was last autumns bad times and just reporting that had some abnormal readings from PCM (possibly because engine gone lunatic). So maybe that battery monitoring reset helped to those possible voltage issues.

But hmm, not this is getting interesting again. Spotted from finnish Ford club forum something very similar symptoms and only in same weather conditions as I have had those issues. That guy wrote that had very strange power losses and limp modes, very rough running and studdering while trying to accelerate only when very humid and cold weather, somewhere near 0 degrees celsius or little bit under it. Sometimes also in city driving, usually in highway speeds. Symptoms gone when had let engine idle for few minutes. Codes were related to boost conditions and also ABS because engine torque calculations where mindless. They had found the fault: There was loads of condensed water in intercooler, which had propably iced in cold conditions and especially in highway speed air current making it more freezing. So choking boost current. And if not iced, when hitting gas and boost goes high, it had sucked that water to intake which messed up injection system. He wrote that after they had drained that water out of intercooler, everything had worked perfectly no matter what conditions were.

Well I started to search internet if this is common or at least known issue. And came to this blog text in U.S.A:

"Have you been having shuddering issues with your Ecoboost engine? Are you suddenly losing power? You are not alone, Ford is working on fixing the problem. What is the problem? Condensation.

Many Ford pickups with EcoBoost have a condition where the vehicle shudders or stalls during normal use. In the most severe of cases, the truck will actually go into “limp mode” causing the engine to lose all power. This issue seems to be primarily from humid states like Texas and Florida.

Ford has a growing issue here with more and more owners encountering this problem and they say they are working on a solution.

What’s Causing the Problem

After doing research by talking with Ford employees, auto technicians and reading through various forums, the cause seems to be the Charge Air Cooler (CAC).

This CAC cooler cools the intake air as it goes through the turbocharger. This cooled air then travels into the engine. The problem seems to be that the CAC is working too well and is causing condensation to build up inside the air intake tube.

Here’s the sequence of events.

1. Air is drawn through the CAC and moisture collects inside the tubing. Most often this happens when traveling down the interstate when air flow into the motor is relatively slow.
2. Sudden acceleration by the driver, changes the intake air flow rate through the CAC which causes the engine to pull in more air. With the moisture sitting in the intake tube, the engine is acting like a vaccum sucking up all this water.
3. Depending on the amount of water that is sucked up causing the vehicle to have different responses. A small amount causes shuddering. A large amount causes the truck to go into limp mode to protect it from damage.

What does this have to do with humid areas? Those drivers live in an area where the dew point is equal to the ambient temperature for much of the time. This means condensation occurs more often causing more issues.

The Fix

While there are no doubt quick fixes on the internet, Ford is planning on issuing a technical service bulletin soon to address the issue. They are currently working on redesigning the CAC to handle times of excess moisture. Be on the look out for this TSB."

 

Just a thought that maybe this could also explain why turbo whining has gone up and boost values look higher as turbo has to make more work to maintain adequate boost levels when charge air is not flowing totally free? And in my case symptoms gone either idling engine or driving slowly like 50 km/h tops for a while... because intercooler has change to defrost? And when I hit the highway again it starts to gather problems again? As I have said, Finland is known for being cold and humid country, springs and autumns has both factors at worst combination level. I have forgotten totally to mention one noted thing... car was more prone to fault when I have used webasto in those 0 to -5 celsius weathers to preheat it, just for comfort mornings. Maybe it gathered condense because of it and when starting engine, cold air rushed into warm engine... twisting things more. I stopped webasto usage also somewhere between december and january (because thought that it drains battery and makes voltage issues), and as I've told it earlier, didn't have any issues for three first months in this year. 

UPDATE: Found also in one of the two Finland's biggest car magazine "Windshield" a story where has been written that this intercooler freezing/condensing issue is a known one in Finland weathers in at least VW, Skoda, Ford, Peugeot and Citroen TDCi based engines. 

[Mutti82]

1 hour ago, Mutti82 said:

There has been no CAN bus related fault codes for a long time, not for at least last 5-10 times when fault has come. And that ABS related U-code has now always disappeared after first restart, so being only temporary, not permanent as was last autumns bad times and just reporting that had some abnormal readings from PCM (possibly because engine gone lunatic). So maybe that battery monitoring reset helped to those possible voltage issues.

But hmm, not this is getting interesting again. Spotted from finnish Ford club forum something very similar symptoms and only in same weather conditions as I have had those issues. That guy wrote that had very strange power losses and limp modes, very rough running and studdering while trying to accelerate only when very humid and cold weather, somewhere near 0 degrees celsius or little bit under it. Sometimes also in city driving, usually in highway speeds. Symptoms gone when had let engine idle for few minutes. Codes were related to boost conditions and also ABS because engine torque calculations where mindless. They had found the fault: There was loads of condensed water in intercooler, which had propably iced in cold conditions and especially in highway speed air current making it more freezing. So choking boost current. And if not iced, when hitting gas and boost goes high, it had sucked that water to intake which messed up injection system. He wrote that after they had drained that water out of intercooler, everything had worked perfectly no matter what conditions were.

Well I started to search internet if this is common or at least known issue. And came to this blog text in U.S.A:

"Have you been having shuddering issues with your Ecoboost engine? Are you suddenly losing power? You are not alone, Ford is working on fixing the problem. What is the problem? Condensation.

Many Ford pickups with EcoBoost have a condition where the vehicle shudders or stalls during normal use. In the most severe of cases, the truck will actually go into “limp mode” causing the engine to lose all power. This issue seems to be primarily from humid states like Texas and Florida.

Ford has a growing issue here with more and more owners encountering this problem and they say they are working on a solution.

What’s Causing the Problem

After doing research by talking with Ford employees, auto technicians and reading through various forums, the cause seems to be the Charge Air Cooler (CAC).

This CAC cooler cools the intake air as it goes through the turbocharger. This cooled air then travels into the engine. The problem seems to be that the CAC is working too well and is causing condensation to build up inside the air intake tube.

Here’s the sequence of events.

1. Air is drawn through the CAC and moisture collects inside the tubing. Most often this happens when traveling down the interstate when air flow into the motor is relatively slow.
2. Sudden acceleration by the driver, changes the intake air flow rate through the CAC which causes the engine to pull in more air. With the moisture sitting in the intake tube, the engine is acting like a vaccum sucking up all this water.
3. Depending on the amount of water that is sucked up causing the vehicle to have different responses. A small amount causes shuddering. A large amount causes the truck to go into limp mode to protect it from damage.

What does this have to do with humid areas? Those drivers live in an area where the dew point is equal to the ambient temperature for much of the time. This means condensation occurs more often causing more issues.

The Fix

While there are no doubt quick fixes on the internet, Ford is planning on issuing a technical service bulletin soon to address the issue. They are currently working on redesigning the CAC to handle times of excess moisture. Be on the look out for this TSB."

 

Just a thought that maybe this could also explain why turbo whining has gone up and boost values look higher as turbo has to make more work to maintain adequate boost levels when charge air is not flowing totally free because there is already condense inside intercooler? And in my case symptoms go away either idling engine 10-15min or driving slowly like 50 km/h tops for a while... therefore giving intercooler chance to defrost or engine dry from masses of condensed water which had rushed to engine? And when I hit the highway again it starts to gather problems again? As I have said, Finland is known for being cold and humid country, springs and autumns has both factors at worst combination level. I have forgotten totally to mention one noted thing... car was more prone to fault when I used webasto in those 0 to -5 celsius weathers to preheat it, just for comfort. Realized it now. Maybe it defrosted overnight freezed intercooler and gathered condense even more, and when starting engine, water rushed into engine when hitting acc pedal little more and air flow goes to max, also intake sucks more humid air to system. Then it once again either sucks water into engine when outside temperature goes above zero degrees and intercooler defrost even in driving air current... or it starts to freeze when below zero but only max -5 and humidity is still highest possible. I stopped webasto usage also somewhere between december and january (because thought then that it drains battery and makes voltage issues), and as I've told it earlier, didn't have any issues for three first months in this year. Maybe it was making more this condensation / freezing issue in those temps, where it hasn't even been very useful what I've noticed. Car has started better without webasto in just below zero degrees. Adding up all these thoughts and what is noticed very common issue in humid and cold areas of world... it actually makes sense in all ways. :)

UPDATE: Found also in one of the two Finland's biggest car magazine "Windshield" a story where has been written that this intercooler freezing/condensing issue is a known one in Finland weathers in at least VW, Skoda, Ford, Peugeot and Citroen TDCi based engines. 

Quote is updated version, didn't give me a chance to edit anymore.

[Gringlish]

Hi Mutti,

You have pretty much the exact same problem as me. My issues started about a year ago, and have recently got much worse leading me to buy a diagnostic tool and look for answers. My local garage have had it 3 times over the 12 months and found nothing other than historical error codes - of course the car has never misbehaved while they've had it. 

I live in the UK, so it's a different climate. It's only been over the last week that the problems have got so bad that it failed to start for 2 days, then drove like it was brand new the following day. It threw up errors for the first time since I got my diagnostic tool today, which were P062E and U0401, although at it's worst my garage said it had a whole host of stored errors. I'll be able to keep an eye on them myself now and will update here if I find anything useful.

Keep updating if you can!

Thanks!

[Gringlish]

Update: So, I'm pretty sure that the weather affects the issue. Over the past week it's always been after overnight rain that the car plays up on the first cold start of the following day.

This morning after very heavy rain, the car failed on switching on the ignition, even before trying to start the engine. Lots of error codes, which I cleared and then retested, got the following: P062E P0606 P060C

Also, the glow plug light was flashing non-stop, and upon opening the bonnet I could hear clicking from the main fuse box on the right hand side of the engine. Opened the cover but couldn't isolate it to a particular relay. This was happening with just the car unlocked with no key in the ignition. With the key in the ignition there was a repeated clicking noise from the main engine block (sorry for the lack of technical language, cars aren't really my forte).

I did try and start the car, and it just about fired up but then cut out right after.

Water definitely appears to be influencing the problem, but I'm not sure where to begin. I might leave it with my local garage if they can hold it for a few days as they need to be able to look at it while it actually fails to do a proper diagnosis; just giving them the error codes isn't enough. There's always Ford but that will cost a fortune.

Any thoughts?

[Tdci-Peter]

7 hours ago, Gringlish said:

got the following: P062E P0606 P060C

All those faults are related to problems being detected inside the PCM (aka ECU), but the actual cause can be outside.

The first thing to check is battery voltage: When being charged by the engine, also with engine off & headlights on, and also when cranking.

One thread with error P060C did trace the fault to a dodgy battery. It was too high (15.7v) while on charge, and dropped badly when cranking. But otherwise it seemed ok. See

Odd voltages, and strange electrical faults can also be caused by a faulty alternator. If this does not put out a fairly steady voltage about 14.2 to 14.7 v, under a variety of normal driving loads like headlights, fan & wipers, then it is worth getting it fully tested.

Earth connections, especially the big ones from battery to body and to engine, can also give odd electrical faults if not making good contact.

Did the multiple errors you cleared include many U codes? That would indicate bad wiring or connectors, or maybe varying voltage due to battery & alternator problems. U codes are usually related to communications between modules on the car's CAN buses.

Bad electrical connections can be humidity dependent.

Also, with a fault like this, I would recommend Forscan as a diagnostic tool. It can probe more modules, and in greater depth than most other tools. It can also trigger self-test modes on many modules.

A trick to safely locate a clicking relay is to use a bit of hose as a sort of stethoscope. Though that probably would not help much with as to why it was clicking. If the voltage was varying with the clicking, that would be a big clue.

[Gringlish]

Thanks for the info, at the moment I've given it to my local garage for a few days to see what they can find. I'll post with an update with their findings.

[Mutti82]

Hi there! My problem still persists and I was wondering that did you find the cause for your very similar fault? Those P062E and U0401 fault codes during rainy weather and cold engine etc are exactly the same symptoms as I have still had... 

[Gringlish]

Hi Mutti82,

An update: My local garage had the car for 3 weeks in August, but the problem did not occur for them even once. Typical. So I took the car back, and it was fine for another few weeks before starting to display all the usual symptoms again from time to time. 

My local garage have since spoken to Ford technical, who believe that it is a faulty wire connecting injector bank 2. The only options are to replace the entire loom, which is a massive job, or instead to remove just the wires connected to the injector back (6 in all I believe) and test each one for a split in the casing. The garage estimates several hours work for this, but it's still rather less work/expense than purchasing and replacing the entire loom.

So I've gone ahead with this and booked it in for Wednesday/Thursday. I'll let you know if they have any success. Fingers crossed..

[Corsalex]

Hello guys. I read all the messages on this topic because I had the same error, intermittent, usually in rainy days and with the same fault codes as yours. 

My car is a Mondeo MK4 2011 2.0tdci 163hp, powershift transmission.

The problem, in my case, was at PCM connectors gaskets. Bad gaskets usually lead water inside the connectors. This conclusion was made after I drove my Mondeo almost 2 weeks without rainy days and no errors. On another sunny day I went to an automatic car wash, and as it was washing under the car, with the engine ON, suddenly the ESP lights on, and the engine started running in 3 cylinders until it stopped. I tried to start the engine and it didn't make it first time. After 15minutes, it started again but with the same problems, running in 3 cylinders, ESP lights on, and Engine malfunction message. 

I sealed with silicone the entire white case from PCM and went directly to under-car wash and NO PROBLEM!!! 

I will try to order the gaskets at a Ford supplier but I dont know if they are sell sepparately or with the entire connector. Maybe someone can help me with part numbers for gaskets please? 

 

[Stoney871]

[emoji6]

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