Jump to content
Do Not Sell My Personal Information


Initial Start Problem


Russwh
 Share

Recommended Posts

My girlfriends 2013 KA has problems with its initial start of the day. Once the car has been started and has over come the problem that only lasts for about 10 or 15 seconds it behaves and runs perfectly. The car starts on the first turn of the key but the idle is very rough with the revs hunting up and down without touching the throttle. If we then turn the car off and restart, it behaves as if nothing was wrong. Any advice would be greatly appreciated to this annoying but small problem.

The car has only done 14k miles and been serviced regularly. Recently the plugs and air filter were replaced to try and solve this problem but they made no difference.

Link to comment
Share on other sites


Hello and welcome Russell

Also Big congratulations for posting in the correct section.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

sounds like the idle control valve to me. remove it and clean it with brake cleaner or petrol or wd40 and refit it . the other way is to clean out the air intake as the flap (butterfly) maybe sticking but not sure what one the mk2 ka has. look on the net for idle control valve. the ka and the fiat 500 are pretty much the same off the top of my head so you may be ok to also look up fiat 500 

i thik it looks like the piccy below as thats what was used on the previous models

 

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=ford+ka+mk2++idle+control&tbm=isch&tbs=rimg:CQcK1ZJhqKeYIjhLlEBq3g2jCH9dB8VufIYLOzRJkBkamEnM8IvQgyric1o-ugpOVQo3Vghyli2RZMxLlEBq3g2jCCoSCUuUQGreDaMIER2YAh6JrFn5KhIJf10HxW58hgsRKr_1wwVmj-dQqEgk7NEmQGRqYSRHsoHrto-ku9yoSCczwi9CDKuJzEVI4fxUUuGWwKhIJWj66Ck5VCjcRelthvxaKliIqEglWCHKWLZFkzBHaF9hQ1Vi8WCoSCUuUQGreDaMIEU6EX10w8HjA&tbo=u#imgrc=leoVnKNAhkukfM%3A

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thanks for your replies. I think this is going to be a difficult one to fix as there isn't much information out there on this. 

I purchased a Haynes manual which really doesn't show much although I'm thinking of having a look around the throttle body as they say there is a purge control valve mounted in the inlet manifold. I've also just purchased a second hand throttle body as there cheap enough on eBay. Delboy, I think the ICV is built into the throttle body and isn't changeable on the mk2 although I'll need to do more research on this. The strange thing is that after the 10 or 15 seconds after the bad start, it behaves itself throughout the day until the next morning which makes me think it can't be the ICV.

I don't really understand what the purge valve does other than it is some kind of emission control device which should be shut at start up and remain shut until the engine is warm and under load. The rough idle is almost like it is being caused by a vacuum leak.

Please keep your thoughts coming as I'm sure someone will have the answer. Searching on another forum showed that someone also had exactly the same problem although there were no replies and the thread is now closed.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, Russwh said:

I don't really understand what the purge valve does other than it is some kind of emission control device which should be shut at start up and remain shut until the engine is warm and under load. The rough idle is almost like it is being caused by a vacuum leak.

Petrol fuel tanks are vented via a charcoal filter, to prevent escape of petrol vapour into the air. The canister purge valve opens to apply some vacuum to this canister, to suck out any build up of petrol in it, and burn it (usefully). Sometimes you can hear a hiss, a few seconds after getting moving after starting the engine.

If that valve was stuck open on a cold start, it could affect the idle. Once running properly, it will make no difference, as it normally stays open. If you can locate it, try disconnecting the vacuum tube, and plugging the end that comes from the engine inlet manifold or throttle body. (leave the canister end open to vent the tank)

If the throttle body is the electric version, then there will be no separate ICV, the ECU just uses the throttle body to control the idle. Usually, only the bowden cable operated throttles have ICVs.

Link to comment
Share on other sites


Today I had a look at the purge valve and now I'm convinced it isn't the problem. I took the valve out and inspected it by applying a vacuum to one of the ports and it held the vacuum. I then put 12volts from a bench power supply across the connector to open the valve and release the vacuum. Thus this seems to work correctly. The valve was refitted and the car started but the problem is still there. Back to the drawing board to re think the problem.

When the car was started this evening I noticed that the fumes from the exhaust smelt very rich which I hadn't noticed before although this may be normal as you would expect a richer mixture on start up.

Any more thoughts would be appreciated.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

49 minutes ago, Russwh said:

The valve was refitted and the car started but the problem is still there. Back to the drawing board to re think the problem.

When the car was started this evening I noticed that the fumes from the exhaust smelt very rich

Nice bit of testing on the valve! But you could have missed one possibility: That the valve is being energised too early. Usually valves like this get a +ve feed from and "ignition live" supply, and the -ve side is then grounded by the pcm. A fault in the wiring or pcm could be grounding the -ve side all the time, or something.

If that fails (The purge valve sounded such a good idea!), then:

I do not expect a strong petrol smell from a modern car (when working ok), unless due to extended cranking time, trying to start. So it could be running rich after start. At start, and until the engine is running smoothly, the system is in open loop. Here, the airflow is estimated by the MAP & rpm (or MAF if it has one), and used to control the injectors to give the correct amount of fuel. Once running, the O2 sensor(s) take over, and fine tune the mixture accurately. This is closed loop control.

In open loop, there are a lot of error sources: MAP calibration & operation, Fuel injector calibration, fuel pump pressure, air temperature. And maybe more. Anyone of these could be making it run rich, and rough, so making it hard to switch to closed loop control. To test this out probably needs a good diagnostic aid like Forscan. This will show fuel trim values, which are intended to match the open loop operation up to the closed loop. Once in closed loop, those errors (up to a certain point) are cancelled out by the fuel trims. Without this aid, there are quite a few bits to test or replace, and it may be another red herring anyway.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hello Peter,

Thank you for your replies, I'm really learning a lot about how these things work. It's no big problem at the moment due to the small time it runs rough, but I know it's not right and eventually I will fix it. She isn't that bothered about it either and if I hadn't pointed it out she probably wouldn't have noticed.

Going back to your reply, how long would you expect a car to run in open loop before switching to closed loop? The car starts very well without any extended cranking. The problem is that the revs go up to about 1200, down to about 600/800 back up and down before settling down. It never cuts out but does come close.

I'll look into the Forscan but don't know that I'll get any more out of that than my Creader. There are no stored codes that I can read. I don't really know how to use the reader or if it will help as within 15 seconds the car behaves as it should. 

Maybe I'll look into the wiring on the purge valve as you suggested and check for the correct supply and a switched ground from the ECU as my next step before looking at the map sensor. I know from playing with the Creader that the temperature sensor seems to read correctly.

I'll report back my finding soon. Thanks.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, Russwh said:

how long would you expect a car to run in open loop before switching to closed loop? The car starts very well without any extended cranking. The problem is that the revs go up to about 1200, down to about 600/800 back up and down before settling down. It never cuts out but does come close.

TBH, no (definite) idea! I could google it, and might get some clues, but I am fairly sure the simple answer is as soon as it can. Emissions will be out of spec while in open loop, so Ford will want to get it into closed loop asap, to meet the requirements. But the O2 sensor will give bad readings while unburnt fuel is going through, so until its readings settle to a reasonable value, it probably can't go into closed loop. Maybe the rpm hunting is it trying to go in, but failing.

Good point about it being low priority at present, but if it does get worse, then the more you know, the better.

I have looked at the Creader 5 spec, and can not find a reference to fuel trims. But have a look down the "entire data list" section, to see if it is there. I am pretty sure Forscan will read them from a 2013 Ka, so my standard intro to Forscan follows:

------------

Forscan is a powerful Ford specific system, Cost £15.00 for the interface. Needs a computer of some sort. (COM port, USB, bluetooth or WiFi interfaces available). You will find a lot about ELM327 & Forscan on this site, which together provide a very comprehensive diagnosis & maintenance tool. James (jeebowhite) has done a nice guide: http://www.fordownersclub.com/forums/applications/core/interface/file/attachment.php?id=21196

Forscan works best on a Windows laptop, with a USB ELM. The Tunnelrat one (below) has been reported to work well by several people. Forscan is also available for iOS & Android for some tablets & phones.

For a USB ELM327 adapter, see
http://www.spanglefish.com/TunnelratElectronics/index.asp?pageid=516992

Wireless ELMs are also available (bluetooth & WiFi), but are often not as reliable as the wired ones. Also they are rare in the "modified" form which is needed to access the 2nd Ford bus system. This 2nd bus is the MS-CAN bus, and links all the car interior electronics like door modules, and the BCM (aka GEM). But a standard ELM will still work with all the Underbonnet Modules (PCM, ABS etc) and with the IC (Instrument Cluster).

For an bluetooth wireless ELM, which one user at least says works with Forscan, see the KW902: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/ELM327-KW902-Bluetooth-Scaner-OBD-Link-OBD2-Diagnose-Interface-Tester-white-UK-/281631334205

The Forscan programme is free (in Windows format) and you can get it from:
http://forscan.org/download.html

Link to comment
Share on other sites

russ the other thing you can try is looking up the fiat 500 details or owners club as the f 500 uses a lot of the same parts and someone may have had the same problem

and put up the fix  ?

worth a go mate

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Delboy,

Good idea, I registered and asked my question but I've not had any satisfactory answers yet. They seem to imply that these cars do sometimes idle rough and can produce smoke on start which I don't accept. I pointed out that my lawnmower starts and idles much better than my car.

There are loads of these cars around and surely people wouldn't buy them if they started like an old tractor.

The most annoying thing is the lack of service data available, after all the mk2 KA has been around since 2008.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 1 month later...

Hi Delboy,

I've been playing with the car over the last few weeks and think that I've managed to fix it. Firstly I replaced the plugs with iridium ones which basically made no difference, although they will last longer so I've not wasted my money. (Recommended by the other forum)

Secondly, and the process that seems to have made a real difference was the cleaning of the MAP sensor. I took the sensor out and found it covered with oily fuel which I cleaned with FE10 solvent. The car behaved as it always did from new once this sensor was cleaned. I think this was a real result as it did'nt cost much and was easy to do. The question is, how do you stop the sensor fowling up again? I'm monitoring the situation and have now cleaned it twice with good results both times.

I'm thinking that maybe when the weather gets better, I should take the inlet manifold off and thoroughly clean it with a solvent. I suppose my first thoughts about the surge solenoid valve letting fuel vapours into the manifold via a saturated charcoal filter, made worse by me topping up with fuel to the brim has eventually had an effect. Obviously I'll need to also replace the charcoal filter and clean the lines out.

l hope this process helps somebody else as it's worth a go and does'nt cost much to prove. I'll let everyone know how I eventually get on if I find anything else.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

 Share




×
×
  • Create New...

Forums


News


Membership