Jump to content
Do Not Sell My Personal Information


Poor starting 1.8tdci


Dennis the meance
 Share

Recommended Posts

Hi folks suspecting glow plugs issues now cold weather is here I've checked I've got power at glow plug rail is there any checks I can meter out on individual plugs themselves any help welcome please 

Link to comment
Share on other sites


7 hours ago, Dennis the meance said:

suspecting glow plugs issues now cold weather is here

Like all high pressure common rail diesels, this car should still fire up reasonably well without glowplugs, it just tends to run rough for a bit. Maybe below freezing that could be the problem, but it is not that cold yet (down here, anyway!).

I would suspect battery, battery wiring, starter solenoid, starter motor or fuel pressure related problems before glowplugs, if it is slow to start. Good cranking speed is more important, to get the compression, and run up the fuel pump.

I have just run a starting test on my 1.8, see:

I have done tests on my glowplugs, several years ago after I found the main glowplug fuse had blown, but it needed a clamp on current meter. Without that, they are not easy to test in situ, you would have to remove the wire linking then together, and they are very low resistance, <1 ohm, look like short circuit on a DMM.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thanks Pete I've got a lead on way to use forscan noticed yesterday a leak of pipe is wet on plastic elbow fitting on injector on drivers side of engine  would this cause trouble by letting air in ?

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 hours ago, Dennis the meance said:

noticed yesterday a leak of pipe is wet on plastic elbow fitting on injector

I guess that is the leak off connector from the injector.

Each injector has a HP (metal) pipe, an electrical connector & a plastic leak off pipe. Injectors are two stage valves, where the HP fuel is used to open the main needle valve, and so a small amount of fuel must return to the tank on each injection.

I do not see how this can allow air on to the critical inlet side of the pump. On my car, all that return piping goes straight back to the tank, with no interconnection to the supply pipes and filter. So any air getting in that joint can only go back to the tank. And I feel it would be impossible for it to get back through the injector into the HP pipes.

If it is leaking diesel, it ought to be looked at, wasting fuel & even a potential fire hazard. But it is difficult to see it causing starting problems.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

This morning I pushed clutch in while starting and it started with no rough running at all so wondering about a starter motor/solenoid  problem battery was a new varta one in march I'll check earths and starter connections over weekend I'll try clutch in again tomorrow morning and hopefully lead for forscan will be here by weekend aswell 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites


Tdcipete I think your on a winner with starter motor/solenoid problem every cold start with clutch pushed results in a clean start how can I check if it's a solenoid problem thank you so far for all your help 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Dennis the meance said:

every cold start with clutch pushed results in a clean start how can I check if it's a solenoid problem

Hmmm,

It alright for me to say just check the solenoid, but I have a workshop full of electrical & electronic test equipment!

First what are the actual symptoms? On my unit, it got rather slow at cranking, though I did not notice this until I replaced it, as the change was gradual. Then sometimes it would turn over once or twice slowly, and come to a halt. Just like with a flat battery, but it wasn't. On a second or sometimes third attempt, it would be back to normal, & start ok. Then it stopped altogether, just a click & not even trying to turn. Removing the starter & playing about with the solenoid fixed it for a while, but I fitted a new solenoid (£21) after it failed again, & it has started ok since.

The solenoid has 3 screw terminals. 2 big, & one smaller. Measuring the voltage across the two big terminals while energising the starter would check the solenoid, it should be battery voltage before starting, and under 1v while starting. This test is not very easy to do, you probably need to access from underneath, and use the right size croc clips, well insulated. Short circuits to the car or terminal to terminal will not be nice! Sparks & heat. It should be possible to balance the DMM where it can be seen from inside the car.

I have tested the complete starter unit in the garage, securely clamped to a workmate (bench, not person!). I used an old car battery (on charge), and 3 jump leads, and was careful that all connections were secure enough not to short out. Battery negative clamped to the motor mounting lugs, battery +ve to the un-connected solenoid big terminal, and then battery +ve to the small terminal to test it. Bear in mind that the solenoid operating current is over 40A, to the smaller terminal, and probably over 100A to the motor. And do not run the motor for more than a few seconds unloaded, it could overspeed.

All that said, the first thing to check is that the battery voltage is getting to the motor. Visual & feel check of the leads. Then voltage check at the motor to confirm the drop in the leads is not too high. A volt or so is probably normal.

Then, if motor problems are strongly suspected, the normal thing is to just replace it for £200 or so.  Or, if anything like me, take it apart & find the fault, locate a new solenoid, and repair it. Must be mad!:wacko:

The solenoid I used, for the Bosch motor on my car, was: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/BOSCH-TYPE-STARTER-MOTOR-SOLENOID-FORD-FIESTA-KA-STREETKA-VOLVO-12V-CARGO-138763-/191307731232?hash=item2c8ad45120

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

13 minutes ago, Tdci-Peter said:

Hmmm,

It alright for me to say just check the solenoid, but I have a workshop full of electrical & electronic test equipment!

First what are the actual symptoms? On my unit, it got rather slow at cranking, though I did not notice this until I replaced it, as the change was gradual. Then sometimes it would turn over once or twice slowly, and come to a halt. Just like with a flat battery, but it wasn't. On a second or sometimes third attempt, it would be back to normal, & start ok. Then it stopped altogether, just a click & not even trying to turn. Removing the starter & playing about with the solenoid fixed it for a while, but I fitted a new solenoid (£21) after it failed again, & it has started ok since.

The solenoid has 3 screw terminals. 2 big, & one smaller. Measuring the voltage across the two big terminals while energising the starter would check the solenoid, it should be battery voltage before starting, and under 1v while starting. This test is not very easy to do, you probably need to access from underneath, and use the right size croc clips, well insulated. Short circuits to the car or terminal to terminal will not be nice! Sparks & heat. It should be possible to balance the DMM where it can be seen from inside the car.

I have tested the complete starter unit in the garage, securely clamped to a workmate (bench, not person!). I used an old car battery (on charge), and 3 jump leads, and was careful that all connections were secure enough not to short out. Battery negative clamped to the motor mounting lugs, battery +ve to the un-connected solenoid big terminal, and then battery +ve to the small terminal to test it. Bear in mind that the solenoid operating current is over 40A, to the smaller terminal, and probably over 100A to the motor. And do not run the motor for more than a few seconds unloaded, it could overspeed.

All that said, the first thing to check is that the battery voltage is getting to the motor. Visual & feel check of the leads. Then voltage check at the motor to confirm the drop in the leads is not too high. A volt or so is probably normal.

Then, if motor problems are strongly suspected, the normal thing is to just replace it for £200 or so.  Or, if anything like me, take it apart & find the fault, locate a new solenoid, and repair it. Must be mad!:wacko:

The solenoid I used, for the Bosch motor on my car, was: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/BOSCH-TYPE-STARTER-MOTOR-SOLENOID-FORD-FIESTA-KA-STREETKA-VOLVO-12V-CARGO-138763-/191307731232?hash=item2c8ad45120

Hi mate must admit it does seem a little slow turning over but I've come from 10years of shoguns/pajeros and the they are always slowish lol I can test battery voltage etc no probs and don't mind fitting a replacement solenoid just in rented no big shed to hide in and play just seems it's starter motor related in z way as clutch dipped it starts straight up no struggle without clutch dipped in cold weather it needs cranking over to fire up prob 10-20seconds in total 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 hours ago, Dennis the meance said:

in cold weather it needs cranking over to fire up prob 10-20seconds

Cor, that is a bit slow!

I just recorded 0.6 seconds for a cold start (about 8C) after about 36 hours standing.

Normally the gearbox input shaft does not add a huge amount of drag. Unless someone has put a really thick, high viscosity oil in it. If so you would hear a big difference in the cranking speed. If you can't really hear a much faster cranking, then it seems like it is only just getting up to the right rpm or fuel pressure. And removing the gearbox drag just makes that small difference that takes it over the starting point. I think the fuel pressure, in particular, has a sharply defined stating point at about 200Bar. I saw that on a Fiesta 1.4TDCI engine, and on mine.

I hear you have an ELM cable on order. A Forscan run would differentiate between rpm problems and fuel pressure problems.

Replacing the solenoid is not expensive, and removing the starter motor is really easy on the 1.8TDCI, once you have it jacked up & on axle stands. Disconnect the heavy positive cable at the joint just down the side of the battery, and then at the alternator, & remove the wire with the starter. But getting the solenoid off the motor can be hard, I had to shorten (grind down) a Torx bit to get enough force on the little, tight, corroded screw heads. It is not intended to come apart.

But your symptoms sound rather different to mine, where the starting was intermittent. It may not be the solenoid. The voltage drop over the solenoid terminals is the best test for that.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thanks for all your help Pete lead not here yet but this morning tried starting without pushing clutch down it started and died instantly pushed clutch down started instantly under a second perfect idle no rough running so I'll run a forscan when lead gets here and report back seems to be rpm/fuel pressure related I'll. I'll check voltage drop aswell tomorrow am aswell 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

pete ive run forscan if im reading this screenshot right this is with clutch depressed its 100rpm behind when it fires compared to yours

Screenshot (1).png

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 minutes ago, Dennis the meance said:

ive run forscan if im reading this screenshot right this is with clutch depressed its 100rpm behind when it fires compared to yours

Hmm, I can not see what might be the critical bit, the "128" is printed on it. It looks like there is a second flat level on the cranking, just before the rpm started zooming up. That may be the actual firing point. If so, then it is cranking nicely with the clutch depressed.

We need another run with the clutch out to see if there is a difference.

Nice data though, I am pleased the ELM worked ok, all too many fail.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I have a theory (I have lots, mostly really daft, but once in a blue moon, one works!). That initial flat on the cranking at about 100rpm works out to be about half a rev of the crankshaft. That would be the initial compression on one cylinder. The next compression will be assisted by pressure in the first cylinder, so will be quicker. Hence a step change in the rpm.

I have memories of hand starting a vibro-plate diesel, & a diesel cement mixer. That first compression is evil. Not possible to do by hand cranking. Needs a valve lifter. Not that that has much to do with a 1.8TDCI!

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

hi mate heres clutch in first pic second is clutch out ill do clutch from 9hrs standing when i get up tomorrow afternoon on nights this week these were both done after 8hrs today at 8c

Screenshot (3).png

Screenshot (6).png

Link to comment
Share on other sites

After tinkering with the internal combustion and CI engines for more years than I want to admit, 99% of the time it's usually the obvious rudimentary things that go wrong! We are in the beginnings of winter and there's only 3 trades that welcome the plummeting temperatures; car battery salesmen, plumbers and undertakers.

A seemingly youthful lead acid battery looses a lot of its summer vitality in the cold and it's worthwhile getting a good old drop test done as opposed to these new electronic black box testers. Batteries fail spontaneously apparently overnight! Does the starter perk up when you try a jump start? Cranking currents expose bad earths, inferior terminations, corroding connections and failing batteries. 

Generally electromechanical devices like starters give you a bit of notice when they're getting bored with life and if it was working fine a couple of weeks ago I'd go for thr obvious culprits first. A highly regarded friend who had spent 60 years of his life mechanicing  before the advent of DTC's told me when I wanted to put an oil pressure gauge and voltmeter on my 1961 980cc Morris Minor "waste of time bl***y worry gauges change the oil first and clean the terminals". 

Hope you get it sorted. My 1960 Ford 4000 tractor doesn't even have glow plugs and starts first time at -10 deg C after a couple of turns with a well looked after battery and connections.

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites


A can of "Easy Start" always comes in handy. I remember we had a 7 ton Crossley way back in 1953 and the only way you could get it to start was to light a fire under it in the winter..

In reply to Focusoap, the Moggy Minor, now your talking my language. Plugs, a condenser, a set of points that's all you needed in those days.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 hours ago, Dennis the meance said:

clutch in first pic second is clutch out

Yes, I can see from that it took a bit longer for the 1st stage of cranking at 100rpm ish, with clutch out.

These high tech cars deliver a bit more than a good old Morris, for a lot less fuel. The high tech diagnostics do seem to have ruled out problems like fuel pump & leaky injectors. The pressure shoots up nicely. It does seem to be pointing to the basic cranking speed problem.

Tomorrow's cold, clutch out start test results may confirm the slow cranking. Then, as Dave (Moggy fan club biggrin.png?) suggests, it is back to basics like battery, wires, starter. I note the battery is a nearly new Varta, but is still worth testing the voltage drop while cranking.

The first car I ever drove was a Riley 1.5, basically a sportier version of the old Moggy. Nice car to drive, it was too! But I doubt if I would swap my Focus for one now. Not all old cars were reliable, as a one time Hillman Imp owner, I can vouch for that!

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thanks for all advice tdcipete its very much appreciated only diesels i had up till now is are 2.5 and 2.8 pajeros/shoguns no fancy software for them lol

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On ‎01‎/‎12‎/‎2016 at 0:09 AM, Tdci-Peter said:

 Not all old cars were reliable, as a one time Hillman Imp owner, I can vouch for that!

We had a Hillman Imp way back in 1969, Went to Dover during that bad winter of 69, it was the only car to make it up Dover Hill, all the others were stranded. Happy Days!

You had to be careful not to confuse the petrol filler cap for the radiator cap.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 30/11/2016 at 7:27 PM, Dennis the meance said:

ill do clutch from 9hrs standing when i get up tomorrow

Have you had a chance to do a fully cold clutch out start with monitoring yet? Catching a picture of the 10-20s of turning over might be the smoking gun. Though I am a bit puzzled about the time it cut out after starting, " started and died instantly", which sounds a bit different.

 

10 hours ago, Devonboy said:

Went to Dover during that bad winter of 69, it was the only car to make it up Dover Hill, all the others were stranded.

Ah, those good old, bad old days! The Hillman Imp was one of the best cars I have ever had ------ For learning about car repairs! I re-built that engine completely. I have strong memories about driving home from Uni, with steam coming out of the back, and me absolutely freezing in the front. Having to stop now and again to ask some helpful local if I could have some more water for the enginelaugh.png.

With the engine behind the rear axle, it was good on slippery surfaces. The problem came when you wanted to go round a bend. Without the recommended weight of potatoes or bricks in the front luggage compartment, it had a tendency to ignore the steering wheel, and carry straight on ohmy.png!. But I do still remember that car, and those times, with affection:rolleyes:. I am just not sure I would want to repeat them now!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hi Pete I had a emergency shift change at work I'll do it tomorrow so it's parked now and don't need to use it until at least 10am tomorrow morning I left it Saturday until Sunday morning a good 27 hrs forgot to take laptop with me spins over quick enough by sound started but lumpy with cloud of greyish white smoke 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Pete havnt had chance yet to do test car starts on button it's only lumpy and cloud of white,grey smoke and smells of diesel when temp is 4c and lower had alternator and battery checked at garage and all ok hasn't started and died for couple weeks now hopefully get some time to myself at weekend to run forscan again and check voltage drop etc 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 minutes ago, Dennis the meance said:

it's only lumpy and cloud of white,grey smoke and smells of diesel when temp is 4c and lower

Hmmm, Firing up and then running poorly with unburnt fuel, is a different situation to not firing up at all. We will have to wait now for some colder weather to find out!

At a quick guess, I would say poor combustion after starting could be EGR stuck open, or (like you said at the beginning!) glowplugs. I did say in my 1st reply that bad plugs could make these engines run rough after starting.

EGR will not affect initial firing much, as there will be oxygen in the exhaust. But as soon as it fires, the exhaust gasses will be lower in O2, and not be good for a stone cold engine. The EGR stays shut on my car for several seconds after firing up, enough to get to an even idle, at least.

I am not 100% sure if these plugs stay energised after firing up, I never got round to testing that. But residual heat in the plugs will help during those first few seconds of running anyway.

Probably the simplest test for bad plugs is to try starting immediately after ignition on, so they get no chance to heat up, and compare it with stating just as the glowplug lamp goes out. But that still needs cold weather.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Egr is blanked mate and yeah it's wierd as first prob I had seems to of gone and yeah need cold weather now to try plugs test my late father was a mechanic he did say once I past driving test cars would be trouble lol

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

 Share




×
×
  • Create New...

Forums


News


Membership