Blue smoke, rough idle - Forscan DTC code

[Albert27]

8 hours ago, Tdci-Peter said:

It is extremely difficult to make really good contact when just using probes or prongs on the meter. Strong croc clips usually make a much better connection. You have to break through the oxide layer that covers all metals (except gold and a few similar noble ones), and that takes quite a lot of pressure. Cleaning with a file or sandpaper helps, but a thin oxide layer re-forms instantly.

Measurements below a few ohms really do need very good contact, or you are just measuring your contact resistance.

But if you are reading 0 ohms to 2 ohms using just the prongs held by hand, that suggests to me the tested plugs are quite likely to be ok. A full test needs removal, and either accurate measurement with 2 meters (one for current, one for volts), or just putting 12v on like I did to heat it up. Though preferably without setting fire to things, or burning yourself!

In that last photo, you've got the one set of croc clips connected to the meter, presumably measuring the voltage.  I take it the other set have croc clips both sides and are attached to a battery and then the glow plug?  Where would be a good place to get a proper set of these clips? I have none, not even for the multimeter.  I'm not sure i fancy non branded eBay stuff when it comes to electrics!  I also had some higher numbers flash up like 8.6 when i did the prong test so i'm really going to have to get them out and test them properly so we can rule them out (or in!)

[Tdci-Peter]

5 hours ago, Albert27 said:

I take it the other set have croc clips both sides and are attached to a battery and then the glow plug?  Where would be a good place to get a proper set of these clips?

Yes, the pair of leads not going to the meter went to a power supply, I used a pair of bench power supplies to get the current. A car battery would also do it, but you always have to be careful when connecting anything to a car battery, as short circuits can make wires get very hot, and burn up, very quickly. Same as when connecting jump leads.

I have had difficulty locating decent insulated croc clips! I located the clips on RS components, but not the insulating boots that fit them. I have had them for many years, so I do not know where they came from.

The best I have found so far is:

https://www.rapidonline.com/mueller-bu-65-series-large-jaw-fully-insulated-safety-alligator-clips-565093

They have nice wide opening jaws, good for bolts, glowplugs, etc. But they are a bit big & clunky, may not fit in a confined space.

The wires I use are something like:

https://www.rapidonline.com/4mm-stackable-test-leads-517549

I use Rapid a lot, though they do have a P&P charge below about £25 order.

4mm banana plugs (heaven knows where the term "banana" comes from!) should fit in most multimeters.

 

 

[iantt]

just be carefull when trying to remove the glowplugs. you dont want any snapping off in the head.

[Tdci-Peter]

9 hours ago, Albert27 said:

I also had some higher numbers flash up like 8.6 when i did the prong test

Bad contact can make the resistance jump up, but not down. Unless you made the probe on the live (tip) of the plug accidentally short onto the body of the plug (ground or negative), then the lowest readings you saw are valid, and indicate a likely good plug.

As Ian says, there is always a risk in removing these plugs, though if they have only been in 4 years or so, it is a bit less than if they had been in for say 10 years.  I would recommend persevering with testing them in situ if possible.

If they do need to come out, be prepared to take some time on it, and apply torque to the plug without side force. A Tee-bar handle can help, or a long handled ratchet, supporting the driver end against the side force you are applying at the other end.

[Albert27]

3 hours ago, Tdci-Peter said:

Bad contact can make the resistance jump up, but not down. Unless you made the probe on the live (tip) of the plug accidentally short onto the body of the plug (ground or negative), then the lowest readings you saw are valid, and indicate a likely good plug.

As Ian says, there is always a risk in removing these plugs, though if they have only been in 4 years or so, it is a bit less than if they had been in for say 10 years.  I would recommend persevering with testing them in situ if possible.

If they do need to come out, be prepared to take some time on it, and apply torque to the plug without side force. A Tee-bar handle can help, or a long handled ratchet, supporting the driver end against the side force you are applying at the other end.

I've got to say, I do find the thought of removing them a bit daunting.  A friend has offered to help who is more electrical minded to make sure i'm getting a proper contact and i will try and get some better clips.  Then all I've got to do is to concentrate on creating enough space to get at all of them by loosening/removing the EGR cooler and associated plastic bracket.  Reaching that part of the engine doesn't half hurt the back though so may emerge a cripple   Will let you know how I get on!

Thanks for the advice gentlemen, as always......!

[Albert27]

7 hours ago, Tdci-Peter said:

(heaven knows where the term "banana" comes from!

Bizarre one!

[Albert27]

This morning I've had Engine Malfunction and DTC code P0380-61 (Glowplug circuit). The only thing that's bugging me is that yesterday a hose snapped off the airbox (see thread ).  Could it be linked or is it just pure coincidence?  Any help would be much appreciated!

 

[FatHead1979]

Can't see how the 3 can be related, glowplugs pretty much just need to correct amount of power to them and they're happy.  Airflow or vacuum etc shouldn't make any difference.

[Albert27]

Update:

Glow plugs have been replaced at the garage but she's still pumping out the blue smoke as usual........the mechanic noticed this and said he could hear the engine 'knocking' and suggested the car would benefit from an engine flush followed by stop smoke being put through it.  I've done some reading on engine flushes and seems to split opinion.  Considering it's at 154,000 miles & been puffing blue smoke for the last 40,000 I'm wondering whether it's a case now of living with it.  It it ain't broke, don't fix it.  In some older threads people were saying some of the carbon build up might be helping sealing and if you dislodge it all you end up with worse symptoms, for others it worked. Any thoughts guys? I mean would it be worth putting the stop smoke through without the engine flush?

 

 

[TomsFocus]

Personally, I wouldn't risk putting an engine flush through a DV6 at all let alone one with that mileage.  It could end up pushing sludge or even solid lumps of carbon into the oil pump or turbo oil feed.  That said, I'm pretty sure @Dee_82 flushed his at some point?  I have also used it on some less sensitive engines to help with sticky hydraulic lifters etc and it has worked on them without any issues - Wynns is good stuff.

Not sure about stop smoke, never tried it myself but I think it just thickens up the oil a bit.  You could try some thicker oil at the next change, but again that's a risk as it could reduce the amount of lubrication available for the turbo bearings.  Realistically, at your mileage the engine internals will be worn a bit, but as it's only burning oil when cold before everything expands, I think I'd just leave it...  That's just my opinion though, others will vary!

They all knock when cold btw...mine sounds like a blacksmith shop for a few minutes in the morning...   It's been the same since I bought it but does seem worse than the older common rails I had.

 

 

[Albert27]

2 hours ago, TomsFocus said:

They all knock when cold btw...mine sounds like a blacksmith shop for a few minutes in the morning...

Lol, that's reassuring to know  

[Dee_82]

Yeah, I flushed mine but I did a lot of research before hand for the reasons that have been mentioned.  I used BG EPR which is widely considered one of the best.

Would I recommend using it? I wouldn't if you don't know what state the engine is in.   its never had any carbonisation build up around the injectors, under the rocker cover and for the first 47k she had regular 12k oil changes.

I drained the oil, refilled with some cheap oil, then flushed, emptied, then did 2 more cycles of oil change before running it for 1-2k, then did a final change. (oil never did stop being black, by the last one it was as close to a deep clear brown as I could make without spending even more money on it.

Not long after that I discovered that in the sump about 100ML of oil remains stuck inside, plus anything else sitting in the oil channels.

and was pleased to see that although it was thinker oil in the bottom, it wasn't lumpy!

If you have run it for over 100k, unless you did all of that and can contest to the condition of the oil and frequency of the changes, id leave it.

Frequent oil changes will remove most deposits, only the hardened baked on parts will be left in place. a good flush will dissolve those but if its bad, then rather than dissolving them, it can flake them off... which isn't good!

[Albert27]

1 hour ago, Dee_82 said:

Yeah, I flushed mine but I did a lot of research before hand for the reasons that have been mentioned.  I used BG EPR which is widely considered one of the best.

Would I recommend using it? I wouldn't if you don't know what state the engine is in.   its never had any carbonisation build up around the injectors, under the rocker cover and for the first 47k she had regular 12k oil changes.

I drained the oil, refilled with some cheap oil, then flushed, emptied, then did 2 more cycles of oil change before running it for 1-2k, then did a final change. (oil never did stop being black, by the last one it was as close to a deep clear brown as I could make without spending even more money on it.

Not long after that I discovered that in the sump about 100ML of oil remains stuck inside, plus anything else sitting in the oil channels.

and was pleased to see that although it was thinker oil in the bottom, it wasn't lumpy!

If you have run it for over 100k, unless you did all of that and can contest to the condition of the oil and frequency of the changes, id leave it.

Frequent oil changes will remove most deposits, only the hardened baked on parts will be left in place. a good flush will dissolve those but if its bad, then rather than dissolving them, it can flake them off... which isn't good!

Cheers Dee, good advice. I've owned the car since 77k miles and it has been well serviced since my ownership.  Before then it was a lease car and was maintained to the 12k oil changes Ford recommend so in that sense it has a good history.  The injector seals were replaced and there were minimum deposits.  I've just had the rocker cover off to do the rocker cover gasket (I presume that's what you mean) and there was no sign of any carbon build up that I could see there.  But I think on balance, I will just leave it & hope for the best.  With the mileage I do, I hope it'll last another 2-3 years and retire it at 200k!  

[Dee_82]

5 hours ago, Albert27 said:

Cheers Dee, good advice. I've owned the car since 77k miles and it has been well serviced since my ownership.  Before then it was a lease car and was maintained to the 12k oil changes Ford recommend so in that sense it has a good history.  The injector seals were replaced and there were minimum deposits.  I've just had the rocker cover off to do the rocker cover gasket (I presume that's what you mean) and there was no sign of any carbon build up that I could see there.  But I think on balance, I will just leave it & hope for the best.  With the mileage I do, I hope it'll last another 2-3 years and retire it at 200k!  

it think its best, too many negatives with a car with that many miles. 

my wee thing has racked up 122k just now, I have a feeling the alternator is on the way out and the clutch and DMF defo needs done.  Ive got the parts for the latter but just need someone to do it, I'm not sure I can be arsed, it looks like a major job on this car, like most things!

[Albert27]

9 hours ago, Dee_82 said:

it think its best, too many negatives with a car with that many miles. 

my wee thing has racked up 122k just now, I have a feeling the alternator is on the way out and the clutch and DMF defo needs done.  Ive got the parts for the latter but just need someone to do it, I'm not sure I can be arsed, it looks like a major job on this car, like most things!

Agreed there, seems like a lot of jobs that should be simple Ford have made diifficult, maybe they're all laughing at us in a distant head office somewhere lol. I asked the mechanic what he thought of the glowplug job on the dv6, to which he replied "you wouldn't like to have heard my language during the 2hrs doing the glowplugs". He did say he managed it without moving the egr cooler. Ah well, cheers chaps, case closed for now on this very long thread........

[TomsFocus]

It took a mechanic 2 hours to change the plugs!? 

They really aren't that bad...

[FatHead1979]

1 hour ago, TomsFocus said:

It took a mechanic 2 hours to change the plugs!? 

They really aren't that bad...

Maybe they were rusted in, if it's a bad case it can take a while being patient loosening back and forth to avoid snapping the plug.

[Albert27]

8 hours ago, TomsFocus said:

It took a mechanic 2 hours to change the plugs!? 

They really aren't that bad...

He said he had a job getting them out and they were creaking....i'm just glad they didn't snap

[FatHead1979]

1 hour ago, Albert27 said:

He said he had a job getting them out and they were creaking....i'm just glad they didn't snap

Be VERY glad that they didn't snap.

If it had snapped, you'd have been paying for the head to be taken off the engine to get access and forcibly remove the snapped plug.