Am I getting shafted?

[SamFoz]

Morning all,

Looking for some advice on current financially depressing situation.

First things first I've got a 56 reg Focus 1.8 tdci Sport circa 70000 miles FSH etc etc

When I bought the car there was a slight wobble when breaking, I assumed slightly warped discs. I was getting a good deal so took it on the chin. It wasn't that bad so I didn't get it sorted until only recently, Took it in to a garage in Leigh (near Wigan in the North West) called BPA service centre. They had a look and agreed it needed new front discs. They took the car in, did the work and rang me at the end of the day. They said that there was still a slight wobble, and that when the last discs were put on the rust wasn't removed from the hub which meant they were put on slightly bent which has damaged the bearings, still causing some issues. I'm not the best mechanically so no idea if this is a common thing or not.

New front discs parts and labour £140

They said buy new 2nd hand hubs from eBay and they will fit them as it's easier and quicker to do that than just buying the bearings. Looked on eBay, they confirmed they were the correct ones. Bought them and took them in with my car. Left it with them and rang me later on in the day saying they were incorrect, I then agreed for them to just buy the bearings and do the job properly. The car had also developed fumes coming into the engine bay, this required new ignition seal.

New ignition seal parts and labour £60
New Bearings parts and labour £220

They rang me at the end of the day and said the rear discs and pads were still causing a slight issue (I knew these needed changing soon anyway) so got them done

Rear discs and pads £140

Got the car delivered back on to work on Friday and was told it was all sorted now. Drove off at the end of the day and was absolutely fine breaking and no fumes into the car. When I got to 40mph and accelerated to 60mph or 70mph the hole car shuddered and wobbled. It has never done this before.

Took the car back on Monday and they have been looking at it since then, they replaced the bearings as they thought they may be faulty. Rang me this morning and said replacing the bearings have made no difference. They don't know what it is, they can only guess at it needed a new clutch and flywheel. They have said to just drive it and see if it gets worse and then bring it back in. They aren't charging me for replacing the bearings again. 

1. Am i getting absolutely bent over here or am I just being really unlucky?
2. Do you have any idea what this might be?

Any advice would be great because I'm really not interested in a £2000 Ford focus costing me thousands in repairs haha.

Cheers
Sam

[isetta]

it is hard to diagnose things without first hand experience of being in the car and experiencing the problem.

I am wondering if they actually experienced the problems you described for themselves on a road test at the relevant speed or if they were just guessing what it might have been from your descriptions to them.  from what you tell us I think their skills in diagnosis might not be all that good.

"When I got to 40mph and accelerated to 60mph or 70mph the hole car shuddered and wobbled. It has never done this before", replacing the bearing again and then saying it might be clutch/flywheel .  I would have thought those faults would cause a different feeling.

does the shudder/wobble vary when you have your foot on and off the throttle?    does it depend which gear you are in?  does applying the brakes at 70 affect it?

if the car is jacked up and you spin front wheels round can you see anything out of line/bent eg. drive shaft.

there must be more that can be done to narrow this down

[biff55]

in defence of the garage , it sounds like the car was in need of new brakes and other repairs when you bought it , but you put off doing the work until recently.

and the prices they have charged are reasonable and in line with the going rate.

its just unfortunate that all these problems worsened at the same time.

dont know what would cause the 70 mph wobble though , ,maybe get a second opinion on the flywheel as the cause of this issue.

[btmaldon]

Whole car shuddering at that speed suggests it is the rear end. It could just be rear wheel balancing and or tracking.

[Ford_lover38]

On 2/1/2017 at 10:59 AM, SamFoz said:

Morning all,

Looking for some advice on current financially depressing situation.

First things first I've got a 56 reg Focus 1.8 tdci Sport circa 70000 miles FSH etc etc

When I bought the car there was a slight wobble when breaking, I assumed slightly warped discs. I was getting a good deal so took it on the chin. It wasn't that bad so I didn't get it sorted until only recently, Took it in to a garage in Leigh (near Wigan in the North West) called BPA service centre. They had a look and agreed it needed new front discs. They took the car in, did the work and rang me at the end of the day. They said that there was still a slight wobble, and that when the last discs were put on the rust wasn't removed from the hub which meant they were put on slightly bent which has damaged the bearings, still causing some issues. I'm not the best mechanically so no idea if this is a common thing or not.

New front discs parts and labour £140

They said buy new 2nd hand hubs from ebay and they will fit them as it's easier and quicker to do that than just buying the bearings. Looked on ebay, they confirmed they were the correct ones. Bought them and took them in with my car. Left it with them and rang me later on in the day saying they were incorrect, I then agreed for them to just buy the bearings and do the job properly. The car had also developed fumes coming into the engine bay, this required new ignition seal.

New ignition seal parts and labour £60
New Bearings parts and labour £220

They rang me at the end of the day and said the rear discs and pads were still causing a slight issue (I knew these needed changing soon anyway) so got them done

Rear discs and pads £140

Got the car delivered back on to work on Friday and was told it was all sorted now. Drove off at the end of the day and was absolutely fine breaking and no fumes into the car. When I got to 40mph and accelerated to 60mph or 70mph the hole car shuddered and wobbled. It has never done this before.

Took the car back on Monday and they have been looking at it since then, they replaced the bearings as they thought they may be faulty. Rang me this morning and said replacing the bearings have made no difference. They don't know what it is, they can only guess at it needed a new clutch and flywheel. They have said to just drive it and see if it gets worse and then bring it back in. They aren't charging me for replacing the bearings again. 

1. Am i getting absolutely bent over here or am I just being really unlucky?
2. Do you have any idea what this might be?

Any advice would be great because I'm really not interested in a £2000 Ford focus costing me thousands in repairs haha.

Cheers
Sam

What I would do is take it to a ford garage and ask them just to look at it (make sure you say JUST A LOOK these buggers will try and action the work before you giving the green light). Anyways have them look at it and see if they can spot whats wrong (them having a look is free) then hopefully they can find out whats wrong and you can take it elsewhere and get it done cheaper (if its worth doing at all).

Sounds like you are in abit of a hard position, I had this with my first car. So I got the AA breakdown cover (the one which covers you for £500 worth of claims), So as I was driving along and the car problems would start I would call the AA and they took it to a garage and paid for the work to be done (I had to pay £35 excess). Im a car noob but those are just the steps I would take if I was you, hope it helps buddy.

[Tdci-Peter]

On 01/02/2017 at 10:59 AM, SamFoz said:

They don't know what it is, they can only guess at it needed a new clutch and flywheel.

I think they are talking rubbish. I might be wrong, but there is a dead easy test. At 60-70mph, drop into neutral, and let the engine slow down to idle. If the judder continues, it is definitely not related to the clutch!

All that stuff about wheel bearings sounds a bit dodgy to me. A bearing gone badly enough to allow any movement of the wheel whatsoever would be very clearly audible as a droning or rumbling noise when running. I have had a bearing go, there was absolutely no play in it at all, but the noise was horrible.

BTW: The going rate for a garage to change one wheel bearing (properly) is about £200. It not a trivial job, £80 bearing (OE quality), £90 labour, +VAT. Two will be double that, there is no common work.

They may just have knocked off a wheel balancing weight, or something.

[Jon84]

On 2/11/2017 at 6:42 PM, Tdci-Peter said:

They may just have knocked off a wheel balancing weight, or something.

This. I had a bad wobble at M/Way Cruising speed. It disappeared with 4 new tyres all balanced, and a Wheel Alignment adjustment. 

[SamFoz]

Turns out it was a clutch and flywheel.... excellent. The said they could tell this because (and they brought me in and showed me) when the car was on a ramp and you revved it to certain revs with the car in neutral you could feel the wobbling. It was just exaggerated at higher speeds and it was coming through the clutch/flywheel assembly.

Apologies for this taking so long to reply. I basically just threw my card at them and pretended the problem didn't exist. I think to be fair many normal serving things went at an unfortunately similar time. They did it for a decent price in the end also compared to a lot of other garages. They did it for £650 and other garages were quoting circa £800.

The car that was supposed to be a cheap run around has cost me considerably more than a 2005 3 liter BMW!!! Who knew... 

Just one of those things!

[SamFoz]

On a side note. It's now been occasionally having a cylinder misfire which is affecting the alternator.

Took it in to the garage yesterday and they think it's going to need a new injector.... wooooo!

Seriously thinking of just cutting my losses and getting rid. It will have cost me circa £1500 (possibly more) in the space of 2 months. 

Anyone any idea how much this usually is?

[isetta]

I don't see how a misfire can affect the alternator. The alternator is driven by a rubber belt on the end of the engine, if the engine keeps turning, the alternator keeps turning. 

I appreciate that the misfire itself can be quite a pain and potenetially dangerous depending on how much hesitation it causes

[GaryPL]

A misfire could potentially cause a charging issue.  If the misfire causes some engine rock, the alternator belt could slip as the correct tension wouldn't be maintained.  This may then present as the charge light coming on.  Bit of s stretch, but it is possible.

[SamFoz]

A misfire could potentially cause a charging issue.  If the misfire causes some engine rock, the alternator belt could slip as the correct tension wouldn't be maintained.  This may then present as the charge light coming on.  Bit of s stretch, but it is possible.

That actually sounds like what it is. There's a lot of rock in the engine and it sounds like there is a screeching from the belt when it does happen. The dimming of the lights on the dash (when it happens) seems to be completely in time with the misfire.

Be interesting to see what they say.

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[Guzzilazz]

9 hours ago, SamFoz said:

That actually sounds like what it is. There's a lot of rock in the engine and it sounds like there is a screeching from the belt when it does happen. The dimming of the lights on the dash (when it happens) seems to be completely in time with the misfire.

Be interesting to see what they say.

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Tightening the drive belt will sort the screeching and momentary loss of charging, but the alternator is attached to the engine, so the rocking is immaterial

[Tdci-Peter]

13 hours ago, SamFoz said:

There's a lot of rock in the engine

The engine mounts on the 1.8TDCI should be really quite rigid, with almost no appreciable movement when pushing the top of the engine about by hand. If the engine can move visibly in its mounts, then it is likely that one or more is defunct.

That could cause all sorts of vibration and juddering problems.

[SamFoz]

I'm not the best mechanically to be honest so I'm trying to work this out and educate myself as I go along.

After what I've spent on it so far I'm thinking it might not be worth just trading it in. Surely something else will give me more reliability.. I'm thinking Japanese of course

 

 

[SamFoz]

So they replaced the injector that they think was causing the issues. The only reason they decided it was this one is because it's one they've replaced an injector seal on.

Took it home yesterday and it's still doing the exact same thing... and I'm another £210 down.

What would you all do in this situation? I've got it booked in at Ford to see if they can diagnose it. It's literally the only option I can think of.

[Tdci-Peter]

On 29/03/2017 at 2:15 PM, SamFoz said:

After what I've spent on it so far I'm thinking it might not be worth just trading it in. Surely something else will give me more reliability.. I'm thinking Japanese of course

 

1 hour ago, SamFoz said:

What would you all do in this situation? I've got it booked in at Ford to see if they can diagnose it. It's literally the only option I can think of.

That is a hard question. Garages with a Ford franchise (dealers) vary a lot. Some charge huge sums just to look, and are quite useless, some are honest and good garages. So it all depends on what your dealer is like.

From the reports above, I do not have much confidence in the garage you have been using, at least when it comes to faults that require any diagnosis work. And from the title of this thread, I guess you are unsure, as well!

If you are reliant on garages for honest and competent diagnosis, and work, then you either need a very good local garage, or a very reliable car. An 11 year old Ford is never going to be the most reliable car on the road.

My 1.8 has served me well, but it has had a very long list of ailments, from major Instrument Cluster failures to reverse light switch & coolant tank failures. I have been able to fix them all myself apart from a wheel bearing, so they have been annoying rather than expensive. If I had used garages for all the fixes, it could have cost a fortune.

I do not like to "do down" Ford on a Ford site, but their dealer network is patchy and too often poor quality. Japanese brands do have a reputation for reliability. Though all car manufacturers are global enterprises now, so it would need some homework to ensure the reputation has some substance, for any particular model.

------

Maybe the dealer will find some simple problem like an engine mount or something. Otherwise you might have to consider other options.

I think charging for an injector changed "on a whim" that did not cure a problem, might be challengable. CAB might be able to advise.

 

[SamFoz]

36 minutes ago, Tdci-Peter said:

 

That is a hard question. Garages with a Ford franchise (dealers) vary a lot. Some charge huge sums just to look, and are quite useless, some are honest and good garages. So it all depends on what your dealer is like.

From the reports above, I do not have much confidence in the garage you have been using, at least when it comes to faults that require any diagnosis work. And from the title of this thread, I guess you are unsure, as well!

If you are reliant on garages for honest and competent diagnosis, and work, then you either need a very good local garage, or a very reliable car. An 11 year old Ford is never going to be the most reliable car on the road.

My 1.8 has served me well, but it has had a very long list of ailments, from major Instrument Cluster failures to reverse light switch & coolant tank failures. I have been able to fix them all myself apart from a wheel bearing, so they have been annoying rather than expensive. If I had used garages for all the fixes, it could have cost a fortune.

I do not like to "do down" Ford on a Ford site, but their dealer network is patchy and too often poor quality. Japanese brands do have a reputation for reliability. Though all car manufacturers are global enterprises now, so it would need some homework to ensure the reputation has some substance, for any particular model.

------

Maybe the dealer will find some simple problem like an engine mount or something. Otherwise you might have to consider other options.

I think charging for an injector changed "on a whim" that did not cure a problem, might be challengable. CAB might be able to advise.

 

Thanks very much for the reply Peter. This sounds like some solid advice. I think the plan is, go and see what Ford have to say (even though it's £90 for them to even look at it). I do trust these as I use them for a lot of the vans at work and have built a good relationship.

If it's good news and it's something cheap I'm going to get it sorted and then think about moving on to another car.

If it's something a little more difficult I'll just have to assess my options. But i think you're definitely right. If I'm relying on this car for work, and I don't have the ability to work on the car myself, I just need something more reliable.

Decisions decisions!

[Ford_lover38]

6 hours ago, SamFoz said:

Thanks very much for the reply Peter. This sounds like some solid advice. I think the plan is, go and see what Ford have to say (even though it's £90 for them to even look at it). I do trust these as I use them for a lot of the vans at work and have built a good relationship.

If it's good news and it's something cheap I'm going to get it sorted and then think about moving on to another car.

If it's something a little more difficult I'll just have to assess my options. But i think you're definitely right. If I'm relying on this car for work, and I don't have the ability to work on the car myself, I just need something more reliable.

Decisions decisions!

£90 to have a look at it?! Are you sure mate? Whenever I have any tiny fault I always call my Ford dealer and have them look at my car (its free). They print me out a report with part numbers and quoted labour time to fix whatever they find. 

If your nearest Ford garage charge that much just to look at it then call the next one abit further out. Infact call Dinages in Worthing (my local ford dealer) get them to agree to look at it for free then push back to your local and ask them what the heck is going on?! £90 to look at it thats madness 

[SamFoz]

Yep you're definitely right! I cancelled the booking yesterday. Its an intermittent fault at the moment and is fine to drive the vast majority of the time. I'm going to get it booked in elsewhere.

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[SamFoz]

Update!
I took it in to the garage I've been using again because they said they would replace another injector for free. Got it back on Thursday. Seemed fine but then yesterday it started doing it again.

I'm convinced it's not an injector problem. The car is now making a slight noise constantly but there is no missfire and no rough idle. The other things are still happening but as always just intermittently and after driving for a while. This makes me think whatever is causing this screeching noise is causing the bigger issue (perhaps a belt not sitting correctly and moving around?).

I've taken a video just in case to anyone here it's obvious. You can't really hear it that much on the video but more in person. Its like a high pitch noise approx 4 times a second. But you can hear it the most when I turn the engine off at the end. Any ideas?

Video here:

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[Tdci-Peter]

9 hours ago, SamFoz said:

The car is now making a slight noise constantly but there is no missfire and no rough idle. The other things are still happening but as always just intermittently and after driving for a while. This makes me think whatever is causing this screeching noise is causing the bigger issue

Those flashing lights on the dash (one was the charging system lamp?) look very wrong, It suggests a problem with the alternator.

I could not hear the characteristic squeal of a slipping belt, so I do not think it is that. Dodgy alternators often whine or squeal a bit, not as loud as a belt though.

If that flashing charging lamp is causing the system voltage to vary or have bad ripple, then all sorts of other electrical problems can follow. It could cause engine misfires, if the ECU gets confused by the varying voltages.

I think I would get that alternator checked out by a good auto-electrician, or garage good with electrical problems. A quick test if you have access to a multimeter, is to look for a steady 14.1v to 14.4v at the battery with the engine running, regardless of revs (with all heavy electrical items switched off). It should also maintain that voltage with headlights, wipers & heater fan on, at any normal driving revs (it may drop a little at idle then).

 

 

[SamFoz]

Cheers Peter. The flashing lights on the dash are just the camera haha. They're constant normally. You hear the noise the most right at the end of the video.

I'll take it in and ask them to check the alternator though [emoji106]

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[Victory]

1 hour ago, SamFoz said:

Cheers Peter. The flashing lights on the dash are just the camera haha. They're constant normally. You hear the noise the most right at the end of the video.

I'll take it in and ask them to check the alternator though

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surely the lights shouldn't be on regardless? they must indicate a fault somewhere

[Dee_82]

flickering is because its probably an LED, because of the way they work you tend to get a flicker, the warning lights look like the handbrake and door open so nothing to worry about although for peace of mind checking the electricals is an easy thing to cross off the list of possible problems.  get the engine on, connect up a multimeter and sit It against the windscreen so you can see it inside, then pump the accelerator. with and without lights etc

Does the 1.8 have an anti shudder device, when it was turned off it made a right racket