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Mk6.5 ZS tdci engine system fault - no error codes!


MIdas Mk1
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Morning all! 

 

I'm new to this forum, usually very active on a classic mini forum, with my fiesta being a daily,  but have joined up as I have an issue with my mk6.5 ZS thats puzzling me.

Car : 2006 mk6.5 zs 1.6 tdci (103k)
Mods : EGR blank, Bluefin, K&N in airbox

 

Issue : I as driving along fine as normal, and around 3 minutes after setting off, the engine systems fault warning began to bleep and flash, putting the car into limited power mode.

I crawled home, and used both the bluefin diagnostics tool, and the onboard computer, with no error codes found. Now when I go to start, then engine will only start on the second go, like it has a fuel starvation issue. When started though, the car will rev to 4k without spluttering.

 

I've had the car 4 years now and never had anything like this, it does 500+ miles a week of fast motorway / A road blasting, so not like it could be carboned up inside. Mods were done  years ago too, nothing recent.

 

Any ideas what to check next would be much appreciated! 

 

 

Sam

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3 hours ago, karl46 said:

Fuel filter?

Cheers for the suggestion, changed it an hour or so ago, with no change! :(

 

Ran the revs to the 3k safe mode limit, then it occasionally let me go to 4.2k revs. Went and checked the rear of the car to find this pile of soot.. Guessing time for turbo replacement?

 

Soot.jpg

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An update :

 

Cleaned out all of the intercooler lines, intercooler, full of oil and sludge. Turbo was oily, new recon turbo replaced.

 

Went for a drive, no boost what so ever, soft cut limiter at 3k, hard cutting at 4k, with the same dash warning lights on.

 

The brakes however -seemed awful as if the servo wasn't getting any vacuum.

 

This lack of vacuum, with lack of turbo boost, seems too close together not to  be related?

 

 

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On 12/02/2017 at 10:32 AM, MIdas Mk1 said:

the engine systems fault warning began to bleep and flash, putting the car into limited power mode.

On the 1.6, bad glowplugs have been known to put the EML on and cause limp mode with no apparent error codes. See:

Another cause of hard to identify EML (though I am not sure it causes limp mode) is certain DPF related problems.

I am pretty sure there will be a DTC linked with the warning lamp. It is just that either it needs a deeper scan from a Ford specific system like the Ford IDS, or Forscan, or it need to be done soon after the fault, not several start cycles later.

Forscan is good for identifying most DPF problems, and can help fix some. It should also detect all turbo related faults.

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On ‎2‎/‎16‎/‎2017 at 8:33 PM, MIdas Mk1 said:

An update :

 

Cleaned out all of the intercooler lines, intercooler, full of oil and sludge. Turbo was oily, new recon turbo replaced.

 

Went for a drive, no boost what so ever, soft cut limiter at 3k, hard cutting at 4k, with the same dash warning lights on.

 

The brakes however -seemed awful as if the servo wasn't getting any vacuum.

 

This lack of vacuum, with lack of turbo boost, seems too close together not to  be related?

 

 

http://www.turbopower.com.uy/doc/falla-turbo-motores-dv6ted4.pdf

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17 hours ago, dave_k said:
On 16/02/2017 at 8:33 PM, MIdas Mk1 said:

 

http://www.turbopower.com.uy/doc/falla-turbo-motores-dv6ted4.pdf

It does seem to me that there is a fundamental error in the information in the turbopower pdf. The oil in the sump does NOT get pumped directly to the turbo, surely it goes through the oil filter. The prime job of this filter is to remove solid particles, carbon and metal.

All engines produce carbon and wear debris in the oil. The DV6 (1.6TDCI) has a particular reputation for severe carbon build up, but it is not unique to that engine. The other thing that irritates me a bit is the they have picked a very poorly serviced engine. 30,000 miles between services is far too long, and 15,000 miles is more than double what most DV6 owners on this site recommend.  No wonder it has a bad carbon build up.

 

I think there is a lot of good advice in the pdf, especially about checking the oil flow rate thoroughly after a turbo change. And this applies to any engine. But it does seem a bit biased against the DV6. 1000s of these engines have done good service for way over 100,000 miles, but they do require frequent oil changes.

So it is a useful pdf, but is a bit exaggerated. If you have looked after your DV6 engine, it should not be like that inside!

 

On 16/02/2017 at 8:33 PM, MIdas Mk1 said:

This lack of vacuum, with lack of turbo boost, seems too close together not to  be related?

The vacuum on a Diesel is generated by a dedicated vacuum pump running off the camshaft, it has nothing at all to do with the engine induction system or turbo.

But there is one possible link, if your DV6 has a vacuum operated turbo actuator. A leak in the vacuum system could reduce braking efficiency. A split or disconnected vacuum hose, or leaks in either the turbo actuator bellows or in the solenoid valve, could cause a vacuum leak. The higher power DV6 has an electric actuator, the lower power one has a vacuum actuator. (If I recall correctly!)

But I still think most turbo problems should show up on an OBD2 scanner, with a relevant DTC.

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I see there is mention of DPF above. I don't think a Fiesta of that MK number or age has a DPF, not even on the 1.6 TDCI (I think Focus did but not Fiesta)

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  • 2 weeks later...
On ‎2‎/‎19‎/‎2017 at 10:47 PM, Tdci-Peter said:

It does seem to me that there is a fundamental error in the information in the turbopower pdf. The oil in the sump does NOT get pumped directly to the turbo, surely it goes through the oil filter. The prime job of this filter is to remove solid particles, carbon and metal.

All engines produce carbon and wear debris in the oil. The DV6 (1.6TDCI) has a particular reputation for severe carbon build up, but it is not unique to that engine. The other thing that irritates me a bit is the they have picked a very poorly serviced engine. 30,000 miles between services is far too long, and 15,000 miles is more than double what most DV6 owners on this site recommend.  No wonder it has a bad carbon build up.

 

I think there is a lot of good advice in the pdf, especially about checking the oil flow rate thoroughly after a turbo change. And this applies to any engine. But it does seem a bit biased against the DV6. 1000s of these engines have done good service for way over 100,000 miles, but they do require frequent oil changes.

So it is a useful pdf, but is a bit exaggerated. If you have looked after your DV6 engine, it should not be like that inside!

 

The vacuum on a Diesel is generated by a dedicated vacuum pump running off the camshaft, it has nothing at all to do with the engine induction system or turbo.

But there is one possible link, if your DV6 has a vacuum operated turbo actuator. A leak in the vacuum system could reduce braking efficiency. A split or disconnected vacuum hose, or leaks in either the turbo actuator bellows or in the solenoid valve, could cause a vacuum leak. The higher power DV6 has an electric actuator, the lower power one has a vacuum actuator. (If I recall correctly!)

But I still think most turbo problems should show up on an OBD2 scanner, with a relevant DTC.

yes agree with the intervals and the rest of your post, was just putting it out there as wasn't sure the service history of the opening posters car and with it being high mileage and thought there may have been a service or two missed over the years with the vehicle perhaps changing hands a few times etc may have had an owner who never serviced.

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  • 2 weeks later...

Cheers for the replies guys, an update for you all!

 

service wise ive changed the oil for Shell Ultra every 15k ish (on 103k now, bought it with just over 50), had two new fuel filters, K&N etc since then too. 
 

I apologias for the slow reply, the Fiesta has been at my uncles mates garage the past few weeks, with them all scratching their heads. Initially when plugged into their diagnostic, it was coming up with a crank sensor fault. I put this down to it failing to start several times after falling into limp mode. 

 

Weirdly, afew weeks back, the car was back to working fine, full boost and power. Ran it to work, 50 miles in the dreaded limp mode and error warning came back on.

Since then, we've cleaned out the actuator, fitted a new glow plug relay, removed the egr blank and cleaned it. It only smokes and stinks of running rich on limp mode, which id sort of expect for in limited sensor mode. 

 

My uncles mate at the garage didnt want to touch the glow plugs, told me horror stories on this engine of them snapping, and needing to have the head off, or even engine swap.. >_<

 

I'm leaning towards glow plugs from the replies above, abit cheeky but doesnt anyone know a rough price for a reputable garage to charge for them, if they snap, is it on me to pay for the extra labour for that to be solved? (my biggest worry)

As its a 2006, it doesnt have a DPF luckily.

Any more advice greatly appreciated, been properly stressed out with it, as im scared I'll get screwed at a garage and end up spending more than the ZS is worth, been using my poor Mini since then! 

 

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1 hour ago, MIdas Mk1 said:

I'm leaning towards glow plugs from the replies above,

It is possible to test glowplugs, though it is not dead easy. They will have to be disconnected from the wiring loom, they can not be tested when all wired up together in parallel. Then each can be tested with a multimeter on ohms range. This is only a partial test, but they should register near short circuit (under 1 ohm usually) on a meter, and any measurable resistance indicates a faulty plug.

For a better test, use a power supply. A battery charger will probably suffice. Measure both the current through the plug, and the voltage from plug to engine, then use R=V/I to get the resistance. With some care, accurate measurements well below 1 ohm can be made like this, and will detect marginal plugs that pass the multimeter test. It needs two multimeters.

Testing would avoid the worry of changing plugs that are working ok.

You reported bad braking some time ago, that may have been linked to a turbo actuator fault. I guess this has been resolved. Also Has an in-depth diagnostic aid like Forscan been used to try to pin down the cause of the warning lamp?

I can not see any garage being likely to accept the risk of high costs due to plugs being seized up in the head. It is something they would say is outside their control. I could be wrong, but that is my feeling.

 

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  • 2 weeks later...
On 21 March 2017 at 2:59 PM, Tdci-Peter said:

It is possible to test glowplugs, though it is not dead easy. They will have to be disconnected from the wiring loom, they can not be tested when all wired up together in parallel. Then each can be tested with a multimeter on ohms range. This is only a partial test, but they should register near short circuit (under 1 ohm usually) on a meter, and any measurable resistance indicates a faulty plug.

For a better test, use a power supply. A battery charger will probably suffice. Measure both the current through the plug, and the voltage from plug to engine, then use R=V/I to get the resistance. With some care, accurate measurements well below 1 ohm can be made like this, and will detect marginal plugs that pass the multimeter test. It needs two multimeters.

Testing would avoid the worry of changing plugs that are working ok.

You reported bad braking some time ago, that may have been linked to a turbo actuator fault. I guess this has been resolved. Also Has an in-depth diagnostic aid like Forscan been used to try to pin down the cause of the warning lamp?

I can not see any garage being likely to accept the risk of high costs due to plugs being seized up in the head. It is something they would say is outside their control. I could be wrong, but that is my feeling.

 

Apologises for the slow reply, i've waited over ten days now for my elm 327 reader with switch to turn up off eBay.

 

Downloaded Forscan and gave it a whirl tonight, and as suspected, getting the PO380-61 glow plug code.

 

Guessing as I've already replaced the relay then it is indeed the plugs that have failed. I'm going to attempt the resistance test another night this week, but I was wondering using Forscan or software with the ELM327, is it possible to disable the limp home mode function? I know this isn't the ideal thing to do seeing as a glow plug (s) are on the way out, but looking at a temporary short fix perhaps? Im new to Forscan so taking me a while to get my head around it.

 

Really do appreciate the replies guys, modern car problems are stressing me out aha!

 

 

Forscan.jpg

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3 hours ago, MIdas Mk1 said:

I was wondering using Forscan or software with the ELM327, is it possible to disable the limp home mode function?

I suspect not, unfortunately. But it might be worth a try. Usually you can only clear DTCs with the ign. on but engine stopped. So if the DTC, and consequent limited power mode, happens after every engine start, then it will still go into limited power mode.

But there is one chance. With some DTCs, it takes two occurrences to light the EML. If this is the case here, then it is possible that clearing the codes just before a start will enable one start cycle without limp mode.

It is a good idea to save the log file(s) to disk before clearing codes, this will give a hard record of what was there, and when.

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