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Help! Sump plug / in the middle of oil filter change


Albert27
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Hi guys,

 

Everything has gone to plan on the oil filter until i've come to put the sump plug back in.

As it gets tighter it suddenly goes loose then tightens again.  When it goes loose i can move it slightly as if to loosen it and then i can't move it any further with my hand.  I've put some oil to test if it will leak and there's no sign of leak.  When i pulled the plug out initially, i noticed nothing.  When i pulled it out the second time, small metal rings came out with it.  Shall i just get the a new sump plug? Could the thread have come from the inside of the sump rather than the plug?  The rings were wrapped round the plug.

Any advice gratefully received!

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You will most likely have stripped the thread out of the sump. The sump plug is usually made out of steel while the sump is usually made out of aluminium. Because aluminium is much softer than steel the thread of the sump will almost certainly be damaged. The sump plug may have been overtightened in the past which damaged/weakened the thread. Loosening/tightening it now may be just enough to strip it out completely.

Personally I would not take any risk and repair the thread in the sump. This can be done by using a helicoil/insert or by rethreading and using a larger sump plug.

 

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29 minutes ago, JW1982 said:

You will most likely have stripped the thread out of the sump. The sump plug is usually made out of steel while the sump is usually made out of aluminium. Because aluminium is much softer than steel the thread of the sump will almost certainly be damaged. The sump plug may have been overtightened in the past which damaged/weakened the thread. Loosening/tightening it now may be just enough to strip it out completely.

Personally I would not take any risk and repair the thread in the sump. This can be done by using a helicoil/insert or by rethreading and using a larger sump plug.

 

Thanks for that.  

I would need to wait before i can get anything like a helicoil/insert - don't even have a drill! So i guess my question is, if i tighten it as it is to a 'tight point' and it won't loosen with my hands force, is it safe to drive for a while until i can sort out a repair?  I should add that it looks like it's almost as far in as it can go - washer is visible but no thread is out.

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4 minutes ago, Albert27 said:

Thanks for that.  

I would need to wait before i can get anything like a helicoil/insert - don't even have a drill! So i guess my question is, if i tighten it as it is to a 'tight point' and it won't loosen with my hands force, is it safe to drive for a while until i can sort out a repair?

TBH  NO!!!!  if does come out even if it seams tight   SODS law says it will   come out at the most inconvenient time and you will kill your engine I know I have done this myself in my youth as I was a busy person with things to do and still used it. Cost me a complete engine rebuild two weeks before going on Holiday using the car.This is a true story do you  really want to take the risk

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Personally i would not take any risk. When the thread of the sump is stripped out the sump plug can easily come out when driving. This can litterally result in engine damage in seconds. Before you notice that there is no oil pressure the engine will already be gone.

Installing a helicoil/insert is not difficult but you need the correct tools (which generally are not cheap) and you have to make sure that the helicoil/insert is installed perfectly straight. If you do not have any experience doing this it may be a good idea to go to a local garage.

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If you don't want the expense of buying kit to use once then you'd be better off sacrificing the oil that's in the sump and getting it to a local garage to fit an insert.

The best option is a new sump but an insert will do. 

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Thanks guys. I think i'll have to opt for a garage.  I take it they do heli inserts or would they just replace the sump? And how much are we looking at ?

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a new sump is about 30-40 quid, its about an hours work so call it an even £100

if it wasn't the sump id even suggest tapping it out to a larger size but you don't want metal filings floating about your sump!

don't know how much the inserts would cost.

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Can anyone give me a run down of the tools i would need to replace the sump myself?  How difficult is it?  Haynes puts it at 3/5  and I've only done 2/5 difficulty jobs so far.  Also it mentions Silicone sealant when refitting, is that essential? All i have in my toolbox is silicone grease!

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I had a fiesta 1.6tdci which i assume has same sump. It is a  steel sump not alloy. i stripped the thread on mine like you. the thing was I had noticed the thread looked a bit dodgy on the sump plug when i did an oil change but it did up tight. so I though i must buy a new sump plug ready for next oil change. but i forgot and when i did the next oil change I remembered as i took the sump plug out. And then it would not do up tight but was like yours. It was a weekend and I could do get one there and then, and once it had gone round and round the chances are the thread in the sump was dodgy too. So it did it up as best i could and covered the head and surrounding in araldite (which is not easy due to it dripping down.) my brother now has the car and it has been like this for over a year. it does drip oil very very slightly, it has not needed topping the oil up in over a year.

I was sh***ing myself the sump plug would come out on the motorway and ruin my engine and cause an accident with the oil slick, but that did not happen. I think I was lucky, I really would not reccommend it.

But anyway some points to make:

on fiesta haynes says you have to remove the exhaust to get sump off. I have not tried but it looks to me like it would come off with exhaust in place.

You can buy replacement sump plug like this:http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Universal-Sump-Plug-with-Rubber-Sealing-Washer-for-Sump-Plugs-M10-USP1-/171220360541?hash=item27dd875d5d:g:89wAAMXQuTNTKt5V   but i think the hole in the sump is too small to get it through (but it can be fitted by removing the sump to get to both sides of the hole

judging by number of replacement sumps on eBay i think it might be a common problem. 

I think I read somewhere that these do not have a gasket and just use sealant. If it has a gasket you will probably need a need one as it might tear when removing. it it just uses sealant and no gasket you will defintely need a tube of proper sealant designed for hot engines. (don't use bathroom sealant).

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Hi iantt, is the eBay link the right size for the steel sump on 1.6tdci? (one size up from what is on there as standard). when you do this does it leave any slithers of metal in the sump?  even it it does, is that really a problem? would it do any damage, bearing in mind the oil filter would stop it going anywhere dodgy? or would it?

 

 

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1 hour ago, iantt said:

ive used these laser sump plug repair kits that do the job.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/272492165222

Cheers for that Ian.  

Forgive my lack of knowledge, but how do you use this tool? And is that the right size for my sump ?

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As the thread is already stripped , your only cutting the new thread by a small amount, and the trick is to coat the tap with multipurpose grease which the small metal cuttings stick to . As for thread size I'm not sure what the original is. Thought it would of been 10mm but don't take my word for it. I checked on eBay and replacement sump plug specs are showing as 10mm .

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2 minutes ago, iantt said:

As the thread is already stripped , your only cutting the new thread by a small amount, and the trick is to coat the tap with multipurpose grease which the small metal cuttings stick to . As for thread size I'm not sure what the original is. Thought it would of been 10mm but don't take my word for it. I checked on eBay and replacement sump plug specs are showing as 10mm .

I think i'm with you but what's the tap? Is there any drilling involved or is everything i need contained in the kit?

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No drilling, the tap is the cutting tool.all in the kit. There's enough plugs for 6 sumps. We used them there I used to work

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Just now, iantt said:

No drilling, the tap is the cutting tool.all in the kit. There's enough plugs for 6 sumps. We used them at work.

Great, this could be my life saver!  I'll get one and give it a go :thumbup1:  

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6 minutes ago, iantt said:

No drilling, the tap is the cutting tool.all in the kit. There's enough plugs for 6 sumps. We used them at work.

And just one final simpletons question.  Does this work if it's the thread in the sump that's stripped and not the sump plug?  

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8 hours ago, Albert27 said:

And just one final simpletons question.  Does this work if it's the thread in the sump that's stripped and not the sump plug?  

That's the whole idea. If it was a damaged sump plug you'd simply just replace it. 

If you go down the route of using one of those kits, I'd recommend some cutting compound of sorts on the tap - Trefolex is my preferred compound but not really available to the diy market in small quantities. Because it's a paste means the material cut away by the tap tends to stick to it in the flutes meaning less of it will end up in the sump.

Make sure you only do a small amount at a time - turning the tap back to breakaway all the materials it's cutting and to keep it clear. The last thing you want is to snap the tap if you bung it up.

 

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If it was me I'd let the oil settle and run in through a sieve before using it to flush out any swarf from the tap before putting the plug in. Pour it in the top and let it run out the bottom. Don't start the engine! Or flush with a litre of the cheapest you can find and re-use your oil after settling/sieving. Any small pieces of swarf remaining should get trapped by the pick-up filter /main filter anyway, I would have thought...

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11 minutes ago, trailertrash said:

If it was me I'd let the oil settle and run in through a sieve before using it to flush out any swarf from the tap before putting the plug in. Pour it in the top and let it run out the bottom. Don't start the engine! Or flush with a litre of the cheapest you can find and re-use your oil after settling/sieving. Any small pieces of swarf remaining should get trapped by the pick-up filter /main filter anyway, I would have thought...

Which is a nice idea except that the sump plug on a 1.6 TDCI is recessed in to the sump creating a small hump on the inside which will helpfully store about 100ml of old crap oil including all those heavy deposits.

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Well, I've done probably 10 and none have had any issues since.

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32 minutes ago, Dee_82 said:

 

Which is a nice idea...

Ah well :smile:

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ALBERT 27; going by the pic of the kit, it does not include a handle for the tap. Because they probably assume every workshop has a tap handle from a general tap and die set they already have. you could use a spanner on the end of it but it's not that good doing that. with the proper handle it's like a T so you can hold both ends and keep in straight and even. bearing in mind how crucial doing this right is with no problems I think you need a proper handle.

Anyone else: if any swarf or whatever is left in the sump, is it possible it could cause damage or will the oil filter 100% stop that? serious question, I really don't know.

I know what Dee_82 means about the recess where the sump plug is. When i did an oil change on my old fiesta 1.6tdci  I did think it seemed a stupid design as it must leave something in the bottom of the sump no matter how you angled the car by jacking it up.

 

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5 hours ago, isetta said:

ALBERT 27; going by the pic of the kit, it does not include a handle for the tap. Because they probably assume every workshop has a tap handle from a general tap and die set they already have. you could use a spanner on the end of it but it's not that good doing that. with the proper handle it's like a T so you can hold both ends and keep in straight and even. bearing in mind how crucial doing this right is with no problems I think you need a proper handle.

Anyone else: if any swarf or whatever is left in the sump, is it possible it could cause damage or will the oil filter 100% stop that? serious question, I really don't know.

I know what Dee_82 means about the recess where the sump plug is. When i did an oil change on my old fiesta 1.6tdci  I did think it seemed a stupid design as it must leave something in the bottom of the sump no matter how you angled the car by jacking it up.

 

oh it does, I recently changed my sump, my original idea was to get one with a flat base but it seems everyone stopped selling them and those that still had the pictures up with the flat bottom all had changed to the recessed bottom, anyhow, long story short, even tho it was emptied there was about 100ml of thick oil in the bottom, wasn't lumpy but it was thicker than normal. the only thing that comes to mind is that the thick oil sicks, so will heavy particulates so it should all hang about down the bottom, you could get a massive magnet and attempt to drag it out the hole.

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