PAS Green or Red

[Botus]

I'm a bit shocked part's guy today tells me the car should have green hydraulic oil, not red PAS fluid.  Went home and checked the manual it says WSS-M2C204-A2 (which is allegedly green not red)

18 months back the PAS hoses went and I got the full kit (both hoses) and a " litre of stuff " (which I thought was red) from my main ford dealer.  I had it fitted by a garage and I guess they would have topped things up as probably needs 1.5 ltr.  Anyway, the pump which had a bit of a tough time when the hoses went and it ran dry, made the fluid a nasty metallic grey colour after about a month and started to be nosier than you'd want, so I sucked it out and refilled with ATF ran and did the same, till it was pretty clean and the steering pump was much quieter and has been OK for 12 months.

Over the weekend, I got a nasty noise like a drive idler bearing was on the way out (nothing like last time it ran dry, which I'd recognised as PAS pump noise from 30 years back when I was an apprentice).  Like last time, the dirty tide mark in the reservoir makes it look like its full of fluid when its almost empty!!  I topped up with ATF and noise is gone but its all a bit dirty.  So I removed the tide mark with a tooth brush and went to get another litre of ATF to re flush.  That's when he looked it up and said its supposed to green !!!

I don't get why Ford would have gone to the green stuff, that supposed to be used when you have integrated it with suspension systems.  PAS doesn't need it on its own.  Cars have happily run Red ATF in most cars for the last 55 years.  Unable to find anything to say Red is right I got 2 litres of Green and went home and flushed the rubbished out, ran it flushed, ran flushed till a nice green clear colour.... But after going for a drive using Green hydraulic oil the PAS is much heavier, (plus 30%) before it was light and nicely weighted now its a bit on the heavy side.  Checking forums, I found three which say its normally a bit heavy.  Anyone come across this change in steering weighting from a fluid change before ? and will the ATF have taken out the pump and rack as the two oils are not that compatible ?

Also got two codes

U1900 CAN bus (showing in Instrument Cluster) is this the normal failure mode kicking off and I need BBA or ECU testing to sort

and

P0599-71 thermostat issue.

Would love any advice on these, I can't work out if its got the expensive electronic stat or the simple cheap one.  How do I tell, mine looks like it has an aluminium housing?.

[JW1982]

The WSS-M2C204-A2 specification is not completely correct for this type of vehicle/engine. This was a known fault of the instruction manual. The manual does not mention that this type of fluid is not used for all production dates and engine types.

The correct power steering fluid for systems that are filled with the red power steering fluid has the WSA-M2C-195A specification.

Initially the green power steering fluid was only used for the old Ford Galaxy (which basically is a VW Sharan). All other Ford models used the red power steering fluid. During production of the Focus MK2.5 Ford switched from the red power steering fluid to the green power steering fluid. Early versions of the focus MK2.5 did still have the red power steering fluid. At some point Ford decided to reduce costs by reducing all different types of power steering fluid that were used to just 1 type.

First the versions with the EHPAS (Electro Hydraulic Power Assisted Steering) switched over to the new green type of power steering fluid. The versions with the conventional (engine driven) power steering system did still have the red type of power steering fluid at that time. On the conventional power steering systems the transition to the new green type power steering fluid was much later.

Ford prescribes that the green power steering fluid can also be used to top up a system that has the red power steering fluid in it. This basically means that both types of power steering fluid should be compatible. However personally I would not mix the new green power steering fluid with the old red power steering fluid. If you want to use the green power system fluid on a system that is filled with the red power steering fluid you should drain and flush the complete power steering system. Completely flushing the system will need a lot of new green power steering fluid. Personally i would avoid this and just stick to the red power steering fluid that originally was used for this system. 

 

The U1900 DTC code is usually caused by diagnostics. This DTC code can be ignored. Even cars without any problems do often have this code. 

The P0599-71 DTC code refers to an electronic thermostat. As far as I know Ford did not use electronic thermostats for the Focus MK2/MK2.5.

[Botus]

Hi JW1982,  thanks for the quick reply and your help.

I was ranting and raving I couldn't find this info before the parts place closed.  I was so sure it was red PAS that I bought two bottles of red against his advice and came home to find out.  The stupid manual says green, the parts system said green and I couldn't find anything sensible on any forum.

So I went back and paid more for the green and swapped it over missing the start of the F1 race.  It actually seems quieter with less (almost no) noise when turning the steering a little side to side.  Its actually a smaller system than I thought.  1 ltr seems to get rid of dirty red, metallic grey fluid to pure clean green.

I have no idea if it was Red or green to start with.  It was black and horrid when I got the car... empty when the metal high pressure fractured.  topped up with red to get me home and filled with something, that went grey and metallic 1 month after I got the car back 18 months ago.

What would you suggest I do? Today its been empty, noisy grey, quiet red (both with light steering) and now clean green with heavy steering.  I'm a bit annoyed as I cracked open the other 11 quid bottle of green and took out about 50ml.  And I'm not joking the much heavy steering is a massive change.  Its almost gone from Japanese light, to stupid German overly heavy. 

On the thermostat point, all the part ones by reg say its either and of late I'm sure the rad fan cuts in far too early and stays on a bit longer. Often when the engine should even be at operating temp let alone hot.

 

its a 57 plate, CHASSIS WF05XXWPD57Y19XXX    with the oval stereo 

 

 

 

[JW1982]

Your car was built in June 2007. At that time The Focus MK2 did not yet have the green power steering fluid.

Personally i would flush the system again and use the red power steering fluid.  

[Botus]

Thanks, also asked a mate who I was at college with who still runs a garage ...  he said best way to think as a rule of thumb is there's 3 system

1) electric rubbish that doesn't use anything

2) electro hydraulic PAS that uses "Green Hydraulic Oil for suspension systems" !!!

3) normal PAS been on cars for 70 years and "has always used Red Power Steering Fluid"

so went back and got the Red stuff, the owner of the parts place was there and seemed to get how the world works and said if the system says green it ought to be green, they could swap it in a computer database if its an error in seconds.... (which is exactly how it could be). 

Then went to Halfords as none of the big places are open and there's says green.

Tried one other local guy and he said he hates ford as they don't know what they are doing.  On a Transit it said it takes both !!!

His systems three separate ones, Coma = GREEN, Granville = GREEN, Millers = GREEN so if it is red and I still believe it is.... FORD are complete retards who don't know their ***** from their elbow and have persisted with this error for 10 years !!!!

Quite why you can't get hold of anyone at FORD on a Sunday or a Bank holiday to clarify what / and why they have done what they have done is PATHETIC

[Botus]

this post is about a slightly newer car with the later system that takes GREEN how can so many systems be wrong when its such a simple fix ???   even the owner thinks his green fluid is red !!!

and here's when it was fitted to later mk 2.5 cars

Saturday, 20 September 2008 | Published in EHPAS, focus, ford, steering | 0 comments

 

One cool feature of the new Focus is the clever steering system. Instead of the hydraulic setup of my old Focus, this new Focus features Ford's new Electric Hydraulic Power Assisted Steering (or EHPAS for short).

The EHPAS system differs from normal hydraulic-only power steering in that its hydraulic pump is driven electrically rather than by the engine. At higher speeds the EHPAS delivers reduced assistance for a strong on-centre steering feel, while at low speeds it delivers more power assistance for easy steering action. This means that the EHPAS system demands less power from the engine, which results in improved fuel economy.

Being electrically operated, EHPAS also allows the amount of assistance to be varied, a feature that is controlled through the Focus's computer display. There are three settings - comfort, normal and sport. Comfort is given the most assistance and makes for very light steering, while sport mode has the least resistance but does allow for more feedback through the wheel.

Now some people may be alarmed at the prospect of electrically assisted power steering, as it's received some bad reviews on other cars that have used it, but the Focus's new variable system really does work. When I first picked up the car I was concerned that the steering seemed too light and vague, but when I got home and started playing with the settings I realised that the previous owner had the car set up in comfort mode. I switched it back to sport mode and the steering is now much more positive, giving good feedback without being too heavy.

While the steering may have lost some of the ultimate feedback of the old Mk1 Focus it is still very good, and response to input from the wheel is instant. The excellent steering was always one of my favourite features of the Focus, and I'm glad to see that the EHPAS system hasn't ruined this.

[Botus]

it gets worse !!!  on Alfa forums cars that started life on RED were swapped to GREEN to stop problems, but many that did this ended up with issues.  But here's why its supposed to be green.

Power Steering Fluid (PSF) is for most cars Pre 2002

Central Hydraulic Fluid (CHF) is used on many vehicles manufactured after 2005 and not just on EHPS systems. 

CHF is light green and is especially designed to withstand high temperatures and pressures over a long period (100,000 miles).  Because they can withstand higher temperatures vehicle manufacturers can use smaller PAS reservoirs, reducing weight, space and “environmental cost of disposal of waste fluid”. USING ATF IN THESE SYSTEMS CAN CAUSE PROBLEMS. ATF will deteriorate when operating at the temperatures experienced in systems designed to use CHF.

and I guess that last point is why in 18 months on a focus the oil is black and nasty

[Botus]

I'm beginning to think it had green originally....  

around 2 years back when the PAS high pressure pipe fractured and the was a hell of a noise, I stopped and looked for issues...   The PAS looked full (that stupid tide mark on the reservoir) and the only fluid I found traces of a leak ( I vaguely recollect now ) was a green oil.  I remember being confused at the oil leak colour.  As it was on the drivers side as I thought the only possible green oil might be whatever a modern manual may have in the gearbox.  So we drove on till it was clear it was PAS steering pump noise.  That's when I saw the reservoir said full, but was really empty.  When I limped on to a garage they went straight to the fracture metal pipe and filled it up with red to get me home.  I then got the parts from ford and I guess he gave me red ( I've need  to get to Aylesbury to find the invoice to see what he actually sold me).  Within 2 months of the new pipes and fluid change it was black rubbish, I flushed with clean red, yesterday it was low and a grey brown rubbish.

 

[Botus]

Just phoned oil manufacturer they think most 2004 onwards Focus' take green CHF every Reg. we tried from 55 plate, 56 plate and 57 plate Focus' takes green CHF on a different system

Ford said go ask a dealer!!!

Ford Mechanic didn't know !!!

Ford main dealer parts system by chassis number says mine takes green CHF

And another big motor factors said green CHF

[Botus]

GREEN  

but most people never knew....   

and some ford factories moved to the new green standard after others, so may have built some with the wrong fluid…  

 

[Incontro]

I think JW1982 summed the situation up perfectly, a few posts above.

My 59 Reg Focus always used red PAS fluid.

[Botus]

it was NOT designed to use Red that is the wrong stuff....you ought to change as soon as possible. 

Red was in the days where large volume systems had a separate PAS oil cooler, thus lots of fluid ran much cooler and coped with life.  When NEW environmental laws came in to force, it became the manufacturer's issue to clear up the mess at end of life.... large volumes of fluid leaching in to the environment or to collect costs more money... So low capacity systems came online... but these NEED a better quality fluid as its working harder - which is what the Green stuff does

 

 

[TomsFocus]

On 5/1/2017 at 12:53 PM, Botus said:

this post is about a slightly newer car with the later system that takes GREEN how can so many systems be wrong when its such a simple fix ???   even the owner thinks his green fluid is red !!!

and here's when it was fitted to later mk 2.5 cars

Saturday, 20 September 2008 | Published in EHPAS, focus, ford, steering | 0 comments 

I never did fix that leak from 2015...the car will almost certainly still have red in it now, but as it failed MOT in March and is now SORN I don't suppose it matters either way.  

Interestingly, you state it was switched to green on 20th September 2008?  Mine was a very early facelift built in Feb 2008 so red must be OK for the EHPAS systems... 

 

[Botus]

the ford green (big money) does not give the heavy weighted steering

the cheap and readily available CHV stuff didn't meet the ford spec (but this now says it does) and did make the steering heavy  https://granvilleoil.com/prodInfo?pID=331

the ford stuff is green and healthy after 2 years

red is black and burnt inside 6 months (for a reason.... its the wrong stuff) 

the law changed in 2000 and I think came into force in 2005 so a mk 2 should always have used green https://ec.europa.eu/environment/waste/elv/index.htm

[Botus]

there shouldn't be any judder ever.... mines never done that in 120k miles

worn CV joints, the wrong wheels and tyres or a slipping belt might cause strange effects