Emissions very high

[frund]

Took my just turned 3, mk7 1.5 tdci fiesta car in for first MOT 38k regularly serviced. I will sail through with new tyres.     Wrong.

The fitter said 'Emissions failure' I was flabbergasted. He suggested a bottle of additive then go for a ride using lower gears to warm things up and get the additive working.

I called again a few hours later having done as he said and reved it up in lower gears as asked. (one v due to looking like a w) 

Again it failed, he tested again and it just about passed. I thought he was perhaps a bit tetchy but when he reved up the car there was black smoke. So he was just doing his job.

So I just about got a MOT.

Morrison's diesel, not a high revving chap but I do long runs always on 60 or a bit more. 70 ish on motorways. Regular oil and filter changes 12k  instead of 20k. He suggested changing to BP and as I had just filled up, waiting until empty ish, then BP with Redex additive.

Any further comments welcome.

[GaryPL]

Diesels can easily clog up. More specifically their particulate filters clog up. And EGR valves stop working efficiently as they get caked in carbon. Both of these can impact emissions.

Avoid supermarket fuels like you would the plague. Only ever use the premium fuels like BP ultimate or Shell v-power. Run through a bottle of injector and filter cleaner. Look for one bottle treatments as they're more aggressive, not these ones you put a bit in each time you fill up. Millers do a good one.

And when on your motorway runs, every month or two, get the engine up to around 4k revs for about 20-30 minutes. This will generate enough heat to completely regenerate the particulate filter. If you only do 10 minutes in 6th gear for your morning commute, this is about as bad as it gets apart from heavy start stop driving. The engine and exhaust doesn't get hot and it's a cumulative effect. Emissions increase and eventually you'll break down at worse or lose power at best.

[Tdci-Peter]

3 hours ago, frund said:

He suggested changing to BP and as I had just filled up, waiting until empty ish, then BP with Redex additive.

I would not blame the fuel. I have almost always used supermarket diesel in my 160k mile 1.8TDCI, and so far it has had no problems with smoke. I think there is some basic fault, that is allowing over-fuelling.

Premium fuel has additives that can hide, or to some extent compensate for, minor faults. Similarly for user additives like Redex, but they are just delaying finding the underlying problem really.

There could be a leak in an induction pipe, a faulty or dirty sensor like MAF or MAP or Fuel rail pressure, a poor quality or blocked air filter, or quite a few other things, including the DPF regen system.

If you like technical details then DIY diagnosis using a system like Forscan may be possible, but probably would not be easy. Otherwise check the simple things like induction hoses & intercooler leaks, then perhaps resort to a diesel specialist before the next MoT.

 

[GaryPL]

19 minutes ago, Tdci-Peter said:

Premium fuel has additives that can hide, or to some extent compensate for, minor faults. Similarly for user additives like Redex, but they are just delaying finding the underlying problem really.

Where on earth did you get that from?

[GaryPL]

Whilst I agree that some people don't notice any problems arising from the use of supermarket fuel, there are problems that come with its use.  It's all to do with the supply chain.  Supermarkets will source their fuel from the cheapest supplier possible and due to market forces, this will change quite often.  It also depends on locality - their supplier in the north east is probably different to the one in the south east.  There is potential for variation in the quality of supermarket fuel that doesn't exist with branded fuels.  Shell won't be buying its product from someone like BP now, will it...

Branded fuel sellers will have much less extensive supply chains as they will probably use their own rigs, their own refineries, their own transportation, their own garages, their own additives, etc.  Yes, Tesco might end up having Shell fuel, but similarly it might end up having a product supplied from some obscure wholesaler.  And whilst both products might meet minimum standards, the same can be said of bottles of washing up liquid.  Fairy lasts longer and cleans my dishes better than ASDA smart price.  Even though they're both essentially the same product fulfilling the same need.

[MJNewton]

44 minutes ago, GaryPL said:

Shell won't be buying product from someone like BP now,  will it...

Err... yes - that's pretty much exactly what they do. It just isn't cost effective to transport fuel all the way across the country and so you'll find that the nine(?) oil refineries in the UK tend to supply the same base fuel to pretty much *all* the filling stations within their part of the country. All that varies is the additives mixed in from an underslung tank on delivery.

Source: My Dad delivered fuel for over 40 years. 

 

 

[Tdci-Peter]

50 minutes ago, GaryPL said:

Where on earth did you get that from?

I am not suggesting that the primary purpose of the additives that the oil companies put in is to hide or delay problems, but it can be a side effect. I have read cases where people change to a better fuel, it gives a short term benefit, then the problem returns.

The additives that are put in by the oil companies, over and above the basic required standards for fuel, will be for reasons that hopefully have documented evidence. They make claims in their advertising about cleaner engines, etc., and could be liable if they can not back them up.

But in the case of a 38k Fiesta, 3 years old, putting out excess smoke, I still think there is a bigger problem lurking in there somewhere than supermarket vs oil company fuel. However that is only my opinion, based on limited experience. Forums like this allow different opinions to be expressed.

[GaryPL]

12 minutes ago, MJNewton said:

Err... yes - that's pretty much exactly what they do. It just isn't cost effective to transport fuel all the way across the country and so you'll find that the nine(?) oil refineries in the UK tend to supply the same base fuel to pretty much *all* the filling stations within their part of the country. All that varies is the additives mixed from an underslung tank on delivery.

 

That statement presumes that they are getting all of their product from UK refineries.  27% of the UK's energy imports are petroleum products.  They just get them ashore and transport them to wherever they need to go.

[GaryPL]

7 minutes ago, Tdci-Peter said:

I am not suggesting that the primary purpose of the additives that the oil companies put in is to hide or delay problems, but it can be a side effect. I have read cases where people change to a better fuel, it gives a short term benefit, then the problem returns.

The additives that are put in by the oil companies, over and above the basic required standards for fuel, will be for reasons that hopefully have documented evidence. They make claims in their advertising about cleaner engines, etc., and could be liable if they can not back them up.

But in the case of a 38k Fiesta, 3 years old, putting out excess smoke, I still think there is a bigger problem lurking in there somewhere than supermarket vs oil company fuel. However that is only my opinion, based on limited experience. Forums like this allow different opinions to be expressed.

I don't deny there's a bigger problem than supermarket vs branded fuel - but a cleaner burning product will certainly help. I also said that his driving pattern is potentially contributing to it.  Most people's driving doesn't warrant having a diesel engine and in three years, averaging just over 12k miles a year, I respectfully suggest that frund is one of them.

I had a diesel car before I got my Fiesta and did maybe around 6-7k miles a year.  The DPF becoming clogged was a regular occurrence and I had to adapt my driving and fuel to suit.  I found that premium diesel meant I could go further without having to take a noisy blast down the motorway.  This could be in part due to the fact that the supermarkets don't actually sell premium diesel, but it didn't feel like that.  I found Sainsbury's diesel would make it smoky, Tesco's fuel would make it idle lumpy from cold.  I then went to Shell as there's one near home and one near work.

This is why I changed to a petrol.  Just wish I had held out as there are some healthy scrappage deals coming about now! 

[MJNewton]

1 hour ago, GaryPL said:

That statement presumes that they are getting all of their product from UK refineries.  27% of the UK's energy imports are petroleum products.  They just get them ashore and transport them to wherever they need to go.

It's not presuming anything. My Dad spent virtually his entire working life delivering fuel and so has first hand experience of how fuel is distributed. I am not claiming to be an expert, even a second-hand one, but I am able to at least pass some knowledge on of how it works given discussions I have had with him. 

[MJNewton]

Recognising that I'm just some random bloke on the Internet offering only anecdotal evidence I've found this from the UKPIA (UK Petroleum Industry Association) which backs up my assertions:

 

----

Storing, moving and delivering fuel to the end user is a very important element in the economics of the downstream industry. It is the one area where joint ventures or collaboration with other oil companies are commonplace, with the aim of pooling resources and reducing costs.

[...] 

The six main refineries in the UK all have substantial storage for finished products coming out of the refinery. However, given the location of refineries, there are also other large storage terminals around the country, generally near major conurbations. These terminals are mainly supplied from the refineries by pipeline, rail and by sea. Often they are run as joint ventures between a number of oil companies as a means of increasing efficiency and reducing costs. Furthermore, commercial arrangements are commonly negotiated between companies to draw product on exchange from another company's terminal. This avoids the necessity to transport products over long distances from one terminal to another and also means that no one company has a dominant local position by virtue of the location of their refinery or terminal.

---

 

[frund]

Interesting debate. Thanks. I have read the replies and considered these. The easiest one is try another supplier eg BP put some cleaner in. The MOT tester has asked me to do this and return in a few weeks (full tank at the mo) as he would like to know if this has made a difference. He mentioned EGR. If there is little change then other things will have to be looked at. Get rid is high on the list. As a retired fitter taking bits off and cleaning etc is not too difficult. The modern car is full of sensors, now that is not easy to sort although I use a laptop and understand remapping, so trying to keep in  touch. I will try giving it a good thrashing up the motorway in 4th for a hour or so just to see if this helps. 

The bit that is really interesting is ..What 'one' thing could be wrong. I live quite far from motorways 25 miles or so but there are cars just like mine doing similar driving. Fuel not sure about that one I favour a sensor or EGR sticky ? Particulate filter?  Before I exchange this car I will have to sort it as it will always nag me. 

My other car is a 1.6 tdci fiesta old shape, 2008 goes like a bomb sails through MOT passes lots of cars on hills. Runs totally on ...Morrison's diesel.  I put a EGR blanking plate on this years ago. No smoke, a proper car, no motorway driving at all. I may polish it later.

[MJNewton]

1 hour ago, frund said:

No smoke, a proper car, no motorway driving at all. I may polish it later.

[Tdci-Peter]

1 hour ago, frund said:

The modern car is full of sensors, now that is not easy to sort although I use a laptop

You may already have an ELM327 adapter. This links a laptop to the car's diagnostic systems. If you do not, then they are available for as little as £3, for a standard one, or about £16 for a "modified" one. The modified one allows connection to the other Ford bus system, the MS-CAN bus, that allows connection to interior electronics like doors, airbags, radios & the BCM (Body Control Module). I am fairly sure later Fiestas have this 2nd bus. A standard one will still be able to probe all engine sensors & actuators.

Forscan is a free download for Windows, and is a comprehensive diagnostic system specifically for Fords. In addition to displaying and clearing error codes, it can display sensor readings in real time, and log them while driving for later analysis. Diagnosing problems on modern cars is still hard, even with this assistance, but it is totally guesswork without these aids.

Serious EGR problems, like being jammed open, will usually raise error codes, as this valve is continuously monitored by the ECU.  But some sensor problems are more subtle, and can be missed by the ECU, so give no error message.

Sometimes error codes (DTCs) are present without any warning light on, and can give some clue of a problem.

But do try the fuel / additive route first. It will do no harm, and if the problem is just a build up of dirt or gunk in the engine, it might even cure it completely.

Also, do not forget the air hose leaks possibility. These are common, and reduce the amount of air getting to the engine. They are relatively easy to find & fix, though leaks or splits are usually hidden round the back of the hose, so you need to be thorough.

[frund]

I have the ELM adaptor as I had a eng management light coming some time ago although I had changed the oil and filter. Found out how to reset this and take light off, could have saved £3 quid on  this one . but this will always be handy. I will look into the modified ELM.327  Forscan looks very interesting and I will do this straight away. I find things like this a challenge and after I sort it will probably keep the car not a bad ol thing. 

I do learn a lot from this site, so your replies are real value and it is onward going. 

i will also keep my young MOT man informed if any one thing fixes the problem he also likes to learn.

I won't be able to do anything to the car until next week due to family things in southern Ireland. But whatever happens I will keep you posted. I will of course read any further info.

thanks.

 

[iantt]

does sound like your driving style unfortunatly. i was an mot tester as well as ford tech not long ago for many years . we knew by the customer profile( being polite) wether a diesel fiesta/focus etc was likley to fail on emmisions. then if it failed, i would clear it out up the road in a manner the customer driving syle wouldnt.
passed virtually every time with a few exeptions but those were down to faults with hoses/injectors normally.

[volts]

2 hours ago, iantt said:

does sound like your driving style unfortunatly. i was an mot tester as well as ford tech not long ago for many years . we knew by the customer profile( being polite) wether a diesel fiesta/focus etc was likley to fail on emmisions. then if it failed, i would clear it out up the road in a manner the customer driving syle wouldnt.
passed virtually every time with a few exeptions but those were down to faults with hoses/injectors normally.

Out of interest what driving style keeps everything shipshape

[Tdci-Peter]

1 hour ago, volts said:

Out of interest what driving style keeps everything shipshape

I would say the very occasional use of full throttle at reasonably high rpm, somewhere between max Torque & max Power for your engine.

It is not easy to do this on public roads, especially with a powerful engine. Up a hill is best.

My days of driving everywhere like a young hooligan are past (many years past,), but I try to give it a few seconds at full throttle every week or so. A few seconds is all you get without going up to a silly speed in many cars now. But there is a dual carriageway with a decent gradient on it near here that often does the job.

The other way is to drop down a gear or two, and use high rpm, for longer, but with less throttle. 70mph in 4th gear, or 60 in 3rd might be enough. But that is noisy and inefficient, and may not push the turbo and combustion pressure & temperature up to its max as well as the shorter burst of max power.

See what others do. Some call it the Italian clean-out.

[iantt]

only ever owning petrol cars, ive not had to do the italian clean out on my vehicles. only customers diesel cars .
none of the mechanics at the ford garage i worked at owned a diesel ford.

[frund]

Update. After emptying Morrisons diesel,  half filling with BP, putting in some Redex diesel cleaner. I ran the car until all the Redex mix had gone through, 34 miles to empty. Then

Filled up with fresh BP did 30miles and took it back to the young fitter who had spotted the problem a couple of weeks ago. The problem is still there black smoke after a few seconds tick over. So is is nothing to do with the make of fuel.

as Tdci-Peter said earlier it is not the make of fuel. 

I may have misled you all as my car engine is a ..MK9 version 1.5 tdci. I put MK7 above. The car is doing 64mpg so not overfueling. I just wonder if it is not burning all the fuel properly.

Faulty EGR or something. The fitter ran a computer across the OBD and nothing shows up he did not charge and others there were interested Kwik-fit Oswestry tidy lot.

•  

[isetta]

in UK Fiesta designations it is a Mk7.5  if it is 2014 car with the big mouth grill.  Can get confusing as some countries are using different Mk numbers for fiesta, as does the parts finder on eBay. so it all gets a bit confusing

[Stoney871]

The main confusion is caused because Ford don't officially use the mk system (they go by year of introduction).
Because of this many don't take facelift versions as such and simply call them a totally new mk.
If this was applied generally speaking then the current focus would be classed as a mk6.

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk

[frund]

Confusing indeed. When I looked up the Engine on eBay, just to see where things like EGR were on the engine I had to put in mk9 to get the correct engine type.  see photo 5 showing

electronic throttle and air to manifold also the massive EGR with intercooler.   This is my engine exactly.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/2013-FORD-FIESTA-MK8-MK9-1-5-TDCI-UGJC-ENGINE-42K-CAN-ARRANGE-DELIVERY-752-/172877188730?hash=item2840488e7a:g:BhwAAOSwAPBZw7TB

[iantt]

egr is at the back on the right as you look at engine. but i doubt it will be blocked.

[frund]

As you say iantt it should not be blocked. It may have a problem somewhere ..I would love to bypass / blank off, the thing completely and remap to take out the almost certain dashboard 

lights.  The car goes well so no obvious signs. A bit of annoyance.