Are Modern cars really that fast?

[Ratters]

10 hours ago, Dave1981 said:

But simple fact is a turbo'd petrol or diesel will leave a non turbo petrol standing if both r floored from a standing start 

Not 100% true 

 

My Focus is driven mainly around town, in traffic, so I generally change gear below 3,000 a lot of the time. Still shouldn't be afraid to rev it much higher though if you have to.

[Dave1981]

57 minutes ago, Ratters said:

Not 100% true 

 

My Focus is driven mainly around town, in traffic, so I generally change gear below 3,000 a lot of the time. Still shouldn't be afraid to rev it much higher though if you have to.

I agree u shouldnt be afraid to rev it past that but all my experience of driving diesel and turbo'd petrol engined cars says that a non turbo will lose out from a standing start, esp with modern turbo'd engines.. I know there are alot of factors to take into account too but in general a N/A engined focus ain't got the instant grunt.

[Dee_82]

12 hours ago, Incontro said:

Pretty sure they don't redline engines during MOTs? Where did you get that from?

 

Indeed, with all the notices up on the garage wall talking about timing belts and Max RPMS and its your fault if it snaps, I had just assumed that they max it out but apparently not, 2500-3000 on a petrol and 2500 ish on a diesel. There you go, pays to check :)

[Dee_82]

23 hours ago, TomsFocus said:

 

Not really...  But it does only have half the torque of my old Golf...   It's been 5 years since it died and I still can't get over the torque from the damn Golf!  

how much torque does it put down? mines about 280 or there abouts, I only tend to get that in third though and just now I have to watch out because she will slip the clutch, the other gears are fine but 3rd is definitely where the fun is at. In saying that ive not driven a Golf before so cant compare.  That narrow band between 2500-3000 has more kick than a 2008 2L petrol Astra though.  

 

22 hours ago, Dave1981 said:

But simple fact is a turbo'd petrol or diesel will leave a non turbo petrol standing if both r floored from a standing start 

VNT :) works wonders as long as it doesn't break.

 

Heres a curious question for you all. 

1.6TDCI, max boost is around 1.48 BAR, at stock and brand new the car delivers around 110HP

So that 110, is that delivered on the 1.48 BAR or is it delivered on the over Boost you can get if you mash the accelerator? theres a cool down period of several min after doing it but its definitely there,

Get the car up to temp, run it kindly for a few miles then when coming out of a roundabout in third accelerate a bit, lift then put the hammer down, it maxes out my 2 BAR gauge in a flash so It might even be as high as 2-2.5BAR of boost for limited time. If you use forscan to watch the trace you will see that the sensor maxes out at the 1.48BAR and flat lines, its during that flat line that actually rises even further, be interesting to know if the reported 110 includes that "overboost" or if the overboost actually gets you even more than 110...

[TomsFocus]

1 hour ago, Dee_82 said:

how much torque does it put down? mines about 280 or there abouts, I only tend to get that in third though and just now I have to watch out because she will slip the clutch, the other gears are fine but 3rd is definitely where the fun is at. In saying that ive not driven a Golf before so cant compare.  That narrow band between 2500-3000 has more kick than a 2008 2L petrol Astra though.  

Yeah mines about 275Nm.  The Golf had 310Nm as standard before being mapped...  Mapped figure was about 450Nm but I can't remember exactly.  It also had a larger VNT turbo, meaning better top end and a wider power band, same turbo as the 150ps Vectra I had which I kept standard as that had plenty of torque as well.  Both had a little more lag bottom end than the Focus but top end was much better. Plus a 6sp gearbox on both which made the most of all that torque.  Also a vid of the 306 2.0 HDi I had before the Focus, 135bhp, no idea of torque on that.

It was a different time with awful phone cameras, and turn the sound down as I failed to switch the radio off in one or two of these...  

 

 

 

I haven't always had quick cars though...  This was a standard 90bhp 2.0HDi...with a dead MAF! (Also note the injector tick!)

 

And a 106 non-turbo diesel...this one always gives me a giggle!   It doesn't look that slow until you realise that's 55 at the top, 70 is at 1 o clock position lol.

 

And a petrol for comparison, 1.8 16v, 112bhp, fixed timing, no VVC/VVT on this.

 

[Incontro]

Pffft diesels. The sooner they are extinct the better 

[TomsFocus]

1 minute ago, Incontro said:

Pffft diesels. The sooner they are extinct the better 

I've added a thirsty, high tax, torqueless petrol video for comparison...   Sadly no videos of my GTi6 or ST150, they at least sounded nice despite not being fast lol.

[Dee_82]

Try that overboost thing and see if you can feel it, ive seen it on a couple of 1.6 TDCIs. Even so, its  bit depressing how sluggish she is compared to the others. Weight must be a big part of that. if we are only pulling 280nm in our overweight lady, its no wonder shes a bit sluggish compared to the others.

Ford doesn't seem to think Diesel is Dead, despite what our politicians (and certain members of the public) want to believe. be interesting to see the real world numbers on this

 

 

[zain611]

Lol the reason people get diesels are because of the low road tax (compared to the petrol equivalent) and economy. That's kind of why I got the diesel zetec s. £30 road tax (petrol is £180) and good claimed mpg however I'm averaging 47.5 in 30mph roads but don't know if a leaking injector is using up more fuel as there is a strong diesel smell when the cars on. 

If Ford didn't put a diesel engine in the zetec s then I'd probably still be driving my petrol 1 litre Peugeot 107. 

[Incontro]

1 hour ago, TomsFocus said:

I've added a thirsty, high tax, torqueless petrol video for comparison...   Sadly no videos of my GTi6 or ST150, they at least sounded nice despite not being fast lol.

Oi that's unfair! Need a proper comparison -  something like a 1.5 180PS EcoBoost petrol, not a lawn mower engine  :) 

[TomsFocus]

6 minutes ago, Dee_82 said:

Try that overboost thing and see if you can feel it, ive seen it on a couple of 1.6 TDCIs. Even so, its  bit depressing how sluggish she is compared to the others. Weight must be a big part of that. if we are only pulling 280nm in our overweight lady, its no wonder shes a bit sluggish compared to the others.

Ford doesn't seem to think Diesel is Dead, despite what our politicians (and certain members of the public) want to believe. be interesting to see the real world numbers on this

 

 

Yeah, it is what it is...I bought the Focus for running costs and comfort rather than power anyway.   Diesel isn't dead for motorway commutes, but you'll have to use park and ride to go into large cities soon I reckon...  

 

3 minutes ago, zain611 said:

Lol the reason people get diesels are because of the low road tax (compared to the petrol equivalent) and economy. That's kind of why I got the diesel zetec s. £30 road tax (petrol is £180) and good claimed mpg however I'm averaging 47.5 in 30mph roads but don't know if a leaking injector is using up more fuel as there is a strong diesel smell when the cars on. 

If Ford didn't put a diesel engine in the zetec s then I'd probably still be driving my petrol 1 litre Peugeot 107. 

The Focus 1.6TDCi also costs £30 to tax and does the same (or better) MPG and has more practicality, comfort and spec...  Just a shame they don't have the looks of the mk6.5 Fiesta!  

Anythings an improvement over a 1.0 107 though, reliable and cheap to run...but soooo slow and uncomfortable!  

Of course, diesel tax on 2017 onwards cars now costs the same as petrol tax...and the extra servicing and repair costs (DPF etc) make the overall costs of modern diesels about the same as petrols unless you do massive mileage now...  

[TomsFocus]

8 minutes ago, Incontro said:

Oi that's unfair! Need a proper comparison -  something like a 1.5 180PS EcoBoost petrol, not a lawn mower engine  :) 

Tbf, the better comparison would be an equivalent petrol Golf GTi (1.8 20v turbo 180ps)...should be reasonably well matched to the mapped diesel I had...

My mate owns a Saab 9.3 estate...2.8 V6 turbo petrol...wipes away any car I've owned!   Plus it's now remapped as well.  Does around 30-35mpg which is decent for what it is!  However it costs more to tax in a year than my Focus has cost in tax it's entire life!   And goes through expensive tyres quicker than I go through DV6 oil... 

[Dee_82]

aye, that's where I'm at, I do about 18k a year, I love to go all in petrol but the cost will be great unless we can push the mpg up to the 47-50 mark. I get about 57-60 in my diesel just now,

of course if I ever factored in the servicing costs of this thing id probably soon change my mind, 6k oil changes, 12k fuel filter (which is like the most expensive fuel filter ever invented) plus all the "preventative maintenance" spent on the emissions side ;) 

[zain611]

That's another thing I don't understand the government doing increasing road tax on cars made after April 2017. My pug had £20 road tax and a car made after April with the equivalent sized engine and emissions is now £140 which is over ten times more. My dad has a VW bora 1.9 TDI 130pd and a car with similar emissions is I think £800 for the first year. 

[TomsFocus]

3 minutes ago, Dee_82 said:

aye, that's where I'm at, I do about 18k a year, I love to go all in petrol but the cost will be great unless we can push the mpg up to the 47-50 mark. I get about 57-60 in my diesel just now,

of course if I ever factored in the servicing costs of this thing id probably soon change my mind, 6k oil changes, 12k fuel filter (which is like the most expensive fuel filter ever invented) plus all the "preventative maintenance" spent on the emissions side ;) 

Wow, yeah at that mileage you're probably better off with diesel, even with the maintenance costs.  Either that or moving closer to wherever it is you keep driving lol!  When I bought the Golf I was doing over 12k a year and regularly towing a trailer, but I'm only doing about 8k now and don't even have a towbar on the Focus.  For me it'd be cheaper to go petrol now for overall costs I think.

I did work it out recently if you're interested...  Fuel, tax, MOT, breakdown cover, insurance, mods and repairs has cost me ~£190 a month on the Focus on average.  Estimated depreciation is about £60 a month if sold now.  That works out at 33p per mile for me...

Haven't got round to working out the equivalent for any petrols yet though.

 

[Dee_82]

2 minutes ago, TomsFocus said:

Wow, yeah at that mileage you're probably better off with diesel, even with the maintenance costs.  Either that or moving closer to wherever it is you keep driving lol!  When I bought the Golf I was doing over 12k a year and regularly towing a trailer, but I'm only doing about 8k now and don't even have a towbar on the Focus.  For me it'd be cheaper to go petrol now for overall costs I think.

I did work it out recently if you're interested...  Fuel, tax, MOT, breakdown cover, insurance, mods and repairs has cost me ~£190 a month on the Focus on average.  Estimated depreciation is about £60 a month if sold now.  That works out at 33p per mile for me...

Haven't got round to working out the equivalent for any petrols yet though.

 

Ha, that's the problem with Scotland, I work in a "Region" but because the population density is so low this region is about the same size as England meaning I'm literally traveling through the whole bloomin country. To put that in perspective, Norfolk and Suffolk is also a region. seems theres a lot more folk who live down there, cant think why lol

 

[Dee_82]

I wonder if you can do a DIY hybrid job on a car to get around city charges.

[TomsFocus]

9 minutes ago, zain611 said:

That's another thing I don't understand the government doing increasing road tax on cars made after April 2017. My pug had £20 road tax and a car made after April with the equivalent sized engine and emissions is now £140 which is over ten times more. My dad has a VW bora 1.9 TDI 130pd and a car with similar emissions is I think £800 for the first year. 

Tax is now a flat rate of £140 after the first year regardless of anything else.  HMRC weren't getting enough tax from cars when so many were £30 or less...think how many £30 cars it takes to fix a single pothole! 

The first year is based on emissions to give people the incentive to buy new low emission cars, same as the old style tax did.  

[Dee_82]

I think 140 a year tax is reasonable, I'm on 30 and to be honest that's a bit of a pee take. I even have the cheek to pay it monthly. 

surely it would be better to tax it based on efficiency of the car, which would help drive ever more efficient cars and reduce consumption of a finite resource.  I mean its all well and good having a "green" car but if it burns through twice as much fuel to achieve the same job, it surely cant be all that green. 

[TomsFocus]

2 minutes ago, Dee_82 said:

Ha, that's the problem with Scotland, I work in a "Region" but because the population density is so low this region is about the same size as England meaning I'm literally traveling through the whole bloomin country. To put that in perspective, Norfolk and Suffolk is also a region. seems theres a lot more folk who live down there, cant think why lol

 

Probably all the inbreeding...   

That's a fair point though, I didn't realise you travelled around for work.  Now I get why you're so against electric cars!  

 

1 minute ago, Dee_82 said:

I think 140 a year tax is reasonable, I'm on 30 and to be honest that's a bit of a pee take. I even have the cheek to pay it monthly. 

surely it would be better to tax it based on efficiency of the car, which would help drive ever more efficient cars and reduce consumption of a finite resource.  I mean its all well and good having a "green" car but if it burns through twice as much fuel to achieve the same job, it surely cant be all that green. 

Old style tax goes up by a fiver each year on the ones above £100 though...I doubt the flat rate will stay at £140 for long either...  I didn't even know you could pay the £30 monthly...think of all the interest you're paying on it!  

The best way to tax a car would be on mileage...  Just taking CO2 as an example, an old lady driving her Focus to church and Tesco once a week pays the same as a businessman doing 30k a year.  How is that fair?   The businessman is obviously polluting the environment a lot more, despite driving the same car.  One idea would be to scrap car tax and just add a bit more to fuel instead.

[Stoney871]

Get rid of the tax and put it on fuel instead.
The more you drive the more you pay.
Saves the cost of chasing down car tax dodgers too.

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk

[Dee_82]

which is fair enough where it not for the already insanely high amounts of taxation on fuel. Fuel Duty AND VAT is already paid on the stuff, not to mention the money we earn to pay all that tax is already taxed! I wouldn't mind so much if it was actually used for the roads, but our roads (up here) are crap, I mean seriously, theres no point setting up speed cameras, bumps etc, all you need to do is adopt Glasgow's policy to road repairs, then redefine what constitutes a pothole so it excludes anything but a meteor strike and bobs your uncle, no more speeding! paying a tax for a mythical "environmental saving" which is just boll-ards isn't something I'm happy about, but ring fenced money for road repairs, id be fine with that

oh an I'm forgetting that diesel, which despite being cheaper to refine, magically became more expensive to buy when folk started getting better MPG in their daily commutes.

[Ratters]

21 hours ago, Dave1981 said:

I agree u shouldnt be afraid to rev it past that but all my experience of driving diesel and turbo'd petrol engined cars says that a non turbo will lose out from a standing start, esp with modern turbo'd engines.. I know there are alot of factors to take into account too but in general a N/A engined focus ain't got the instant grunt.

Ahhhh ... If you are comparing a circa 100bhp n/a 1.6 Focus to a circa 225bhp turbo then obviously the n/a Focus hasn't got the grunt  But that's due to the power output difference not just the fact one has a turbo. Maybe we had our wires slightly crossed.

[zain611]

Was just looking at some more cars to compare my 1.6 diesel fiesta 0 to 60 time (11.2). Was looking at a 2009 yaris 1.4 diesel. I think claimed 70 mpg but takes 10.8 secs to 60. Another was a 2010 polo 1.6 TDI which is claimed 76 mpg but takes 13.9 seconds which is horrendously slow; my 1 litre Peugeot 107 is 14 seconds to 60. I just mainly look at road tax, claimed mpg and 0 to 60 times. 

[CrazyInWeston]

I'm pretty sure I've gotten my car to 60mph faster than the stated time. (10.6 seconds) But then I'm NOT counting.

Perhaps its possible my mindset is on diesels, as after passing on a petrol, I didnt own a car but worked for a company for nearly 2yrs driving a diesel truck. Suppose the habit stuck? I dont know.

I did earlier today though kept the car in a higher rev gear and was pleased about the amount of sudden power as opposed to me getting into the highest gear ASAP.