Do you pay the garage bill when they haven't fixed the problem???

[ianash]

I'm guessing this subject has been raised before, but very interested to hear some views.

I took an 02 Fiesta 1.8 TDDi into the local garage as the heater wasn't working properly (as per other thread). The car was in all day Tues and then back in Weds from noon until 5pm.

The bottom line is that the thermostat has been replaced, coolant added and a diagnosis EVENTUALLY made that the problem is the heater matrix (with a quote of around £300 to fix which I can't justify), however the car has come back with exactly the same problem as it went in with, and I've been presented with a bill to pay.

After some negotiation we eventually settled on £50 + Vat to cover time spent, the thermostat and coolant, and whilst I appreciate that these are potentially worthwhile additions and they spent a fair amount of time trying to remedy the fault, I've still shelled out nearly £60 for basically nothing.

What are your thoughts on this, is it in fact covered by law? I will say I don't have any quibbles over the integrity of the garage in question.

[thesilverfox]

I'm guessing this subject has been raised before, but very interested to hear some views.

I took an 02 Fiesta 1.8 TDDi into the local garage as the heater wasn't working properly (as per other thread). The car was in all day Tues and then back in Weds from noon until 5pm.

The bottom line is that the thermostat has been replaced, coolant added and a diagnosis EVENTUALLY made that the problem is the heater matrix (with a quote of around £300 to fix which I can't justify), however the car has come back with exactly the same problem as it went in with, and I've been presented with a bill to pay.

After some negotiation we eventually settled on £50 + Vat to cover time spent, the thermostat and coolant, and whilst I appreciate that these are potentially worthwhile additions and they spent a fair amount of time trying to remedy the fault, I've still shelled out nearly £60 for basically nothing.

What are your thoughts on this, is it in fact covered by law? I will say I don't have any quibbles over the integrity of the garage in question.

The garage can't diagnose all problems for free - they need to be compensated for their time and that's definitely reasonable. Had you agreed to have the work done as a result, they may be more willing to negotiate, but consider that an hour of labour is usually around £60+VAT at Ford, you've done rather well ...

[bigjock]

I'm guessing this subject has been raised before, but very interested to hear some views.

I took an 02 Fiesta 1.8 TDDi into the local garage as the heater wasn't working properly (as per other thread). The car was in all day Tues and then back in Weds from noon until 5pm.

The bottom line is that the thermostat has been replaced, coolant added and a diagnosis EVENTUALLY made that the problem is the heater matrix (with a quote of around £300 to fix which I can't justify), however the car has come back with exactly the same problem as it went in with, and I've been presented with a bill to pay.

After some negotiation we eventually settled on £50 + Vat to cover time spent, the thermostat and coolant, and whilst I appreciate that these are potentially worthwhile additions and they spent a fair amount of time trying to remedy the fault, I've still shelled out nearly £60 for basically nothing.

What are your thoughts on this, is it in fact covered by law? I will say I don't have any quibbles over the integrity of the garage in question.

not sure about your rights but i guess it pays to level with the garage from the start. you probo should have suggested you didn't want to spend a fortune on a fix and that you'd be happy to pay a tenner for them to diagnose the fault, this way neither party would be out of pocket. i have used this method a few times last time was with a buckled alloy the chap told me my tyre was loosing air due to a buckle he asked if i wanted to order a new one i said no as it was £130 instead i asked if he'd be happy to batter it with a hammer for a tenner which he duelly did and the wheel was fixed! otherwise id have looked for a 2nd hand one. always pays to barter with them.

[ianash]

not sure about your rights but i guess it pays to level with the garage from the start. you probo should have suggested you didn't want to spend a fortune on a fix and that you'd be happy to pay a tenner for them to diagnose the fault,

We did actually discuss the potential work and what it would cost. It appeared that it could stretch to the thermostat, some coolant, the heater tap and some labour, total around £110 + Vat. As I was guessing around £100 before I walked in, I said that this would be fine.

Bottom line is, if it was £150 and it was fixed, I'd be happy. But £60 and the fault is still the same, different way of thinking!

[bigjock]

We did actually discuss the potential work and what it would cost. It appeared that it could stretch to the thermostat, some coolant, the heater tap and some labour, total around £110 + Vat. As I was guessing around £100 before I walked in, I said that this would be fine.

Bottom line is, if it was £150 and it was fixed, I'd be happy. But £60 and the fault is still the same, different way of thinking!

id say you did well to get the diagnosis for £60 let alone the thermo and coolant. least you know whats wrong with it now and you can try looking for a heater martix yourself thus saving on dealer prices/parts. then just get someone to fit it for an agreed price, you will probo end up saving a fair bit on the £300 quoted more than the £60 you spent on diagnosis.

[bigjock]

examples of some for sale at monent - http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/FORD-FIESTA-HEATER-MATRIX_W0QQitemZ270444386197QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUK_CarsParts_Vehicles_CarParts_SM?hash=item3ef7bdd795 http://www.aaronradiator.co.uk/catalog/Ford_Fiesta_Mk5_Heater_Matrix-225-1.html http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Ford-Fiesta-1-2cc-2002-mk5-heater-matrix-radiator_W0QQitemZ170398216465QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUK_CarsParts_Vehicles_CarParts_SM?hash=item27ac867111 http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/FORD-FIESTA-KA-PUMA-HEATER-MATRIX_W0QQitemZ270444383724QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUK_CarsParts_Vehicles_CarParts_SM?hash=item3ef7bdcdec - probo manage to fit yourself with a bit of research.

[KeithC]

Why should a garage, or any one else for that matter spend valuable time looking for a fault and not get paid for doing such?

For example, you take the car to a garage and they spend 4 hrs fault finding and the result is a faulty relay somewhere in your electrics. They advise you that the relay will cost £15 and will take 2 minutes to swap in the fuse box. Do you think it's fair for them to spend 4 hrs finding your fault with no recompense and you go out and fix the problem in 10 minutes and for £15?

Say that did that twice in one day, that's 8 hrs labour for them and zero income. Next time you want something fixing, that garage will no longer be there.

This day and age there are just too many people out there who want something for nothing.

[alexavfc]

Why should a garage, or any one else for that matter spend valuable time looking for a fault and not get paid for doing such?

For example, you take the car to a garage and they spend 4 hrs fault finding and the result is a faulty relay somewhere in your electrics. They advise you that the relay will cost £15 and will take 2 minutes to swap in the fuse box. Do you think it's fair for them to spend 4 hrs finding your fault with no recompense and you go out and fix the problem in 10 minutes and for £15?

Say that did that twice in one day, that's 8 hrs labour for them and zero income. Next time you want something fixing, that garage will no longer be there.

This day and age there are just too many people out there who want something for nothing.

So you think that they spent all day Tuesday and 5 hours on Wednesday on his car?

[cyb]

Whilst I agree with all sides here I have a question …

Should a garage be able to tell if it was the heater matrix at fault without changing the thermostat and coolant?

If the answer is yes than I feel perhaps being charged for these items is a little unfair and perhaps the garage should have looked at other possibilities before hand.

If they have made the wrong diagnosis and wasted their time and your money trying to fix the wrong problem I think next time I would look at using a garage that might have better knowledge.

But I do think if a garage is spending time trying to find the problem then in all fairness I can understand them wanting to charge you for some of the time.

[KeithC]

So you think that they spent all day Tuesday and 5 hours on Wednesday on his car?

What the hell are you on about??????

What part of "for example" do you not understand??

[KeithC]

Whilst I agree with all sides here I have a question …

Should a garage be able to tell if it was the heater matrix at fault without changing the thermostat and coolant?

If the answer is yes than I feel perhaps being charged for these items is a little unfair and perhaps the garage should have looked at other possibilities before hand.

If they have made the wrong diagnosis and wasted their time and your money trying to fix the wrong problem I think next time I would look at using a garage that might have better knowledge.

But I do think if a garage is spending time trying to find the problem then in all fairness I can understand them wanting to charge you for some of the time.

It's more than likely that's the first thing and easiest thing to check with heating problems and any garage would go down this route first. It would be wise to replace the thermostat and to be honest, £50 + VAT is hardly extortionate considering the fault was found, never mind the cost of replacing thermostat and coolant.

[Jonny87]

What the hell are you on about????????????????

What part of "for example" do you not understand?????

YAY!!! GO KEITH!!!

This is why you are member of the year Keith!!

[paulworthing]

I guess it depends whether you had a quote in writing which would have constituted some form of contract, without that then it is your word against their's and I would suggest that you got the best you could hope for with a reduced bill . . . .if you're still not happy then I guess it is a letter to Ford GB if it is a franchised dealer or the small claims court

[ianash]

if you're still not happy then I guess it is a letter to Ford GB if it is a franchised dealer or the small claims court

I don't know if this is frowned upon around these parts but it wasn't a Ford garage I took it to, it was an established local non-brand-specific garage.

Now, here's the update...I'm driving around town today for a good 20 minutes or so and would you believe it the air coming out the heater is stone cold - so there's not even the quite warm air that there was before I put it in the garage. So I decided to drive up to the garage and put my foot down a bit and a nice blast of warm air appears. In a nutshell, the warm air is now only coming through when I rev it up a bit, any smooth town-style driving produces a lovely cooling breeze that we all need in January....

So, bottom line, it is now worse than it was when I put it in the garage.

[ianash]

This day and age there are just too many people out there who want something for nothing.

Bear in mind Keith, I did say that I discussed with the garage that it would probably be around £120 to fix and I was okay with that. Far from receiving "something for nothing", I've received "nothing for £60"!!

[thesilverfox]

Bear in mind Keith, I did say that I discussed with the garage that it would probably be around £120 to fix and I was okay with that. Far from receiving "something for nothing", I've received "nothing for £60"!!

But that would be an estimate, yes? Sometimes you have to expect to find that the problem is more complicated than anticipated initially.

Personally, I don't know why you're upset. You've had a few hours of labour and a diagnosis for pittance!

[ianash]

Personally, I don't know why you're upset. You've had a few hours of labour and a diagnosis for pittance!

Actually, if we stick to the facts, I've had an unknown amount of labour and have paid for a thermostat and some coolant that, combined, have made the problem worse than it was before I took the car into the garage.

Incidentally, the diagnosis is currently unproven.

[thesilverfox]

Actually, if we stick to the facts, I've had an unknown amount of labour and have paid for a thermostat and some coolant that, combined, have made the problem worse than it was before I took the car into the garage.

Incidentally, the diagnosis is currently unproven.

Well arguably then, you would like to assume that some time has been spent on the car. Some time was spent finding a problem, ordering an item/getting item from shelf, fitting item and concluding that the item didn't resolve the problem. Surely you've thought to look at your receipt to see how many units of labour were charged for the job?

Regarding a diagnosis; a doctor can't come to the conclusion someone has a torn cartilage in their knee, just because it's sore - it needs an MRI scan and then surgery. A mechanic can't just conclude a heating matrix has failed, without checking the thermostat first. It's logic.

Are you suggesting the new thermostat has made your car worse? I'm not sure how this is actally possible if it is a new unit.

What's more likely is the fact that the heating was a problem regardless and the heating was always going to give up the ghost completely.

I can only reiterate: surprised you are upset. As much as we all begrudge paying out for car repairs, I don't see what the problem is. If you took it to a small claims court, you'd be laughed at.

[Jonny87]

I can only reiterate: surprised you are upset. As much as we all begrudge paying out for car repairs, I don't see what the problem is. If you took it to a small claims court, you'd be laughed at.

INDEED

[ianash]

Well arguably then, you would like to assume that some time has been spent on the car. Some time was spent finding a problem, ordering an item/getting item from shelf, fitting item and concluding that the item didn't resolve the problem. Surely you've thought to look at your receipt to see how many units of labour were charged for the job?

Regarding a diagnosis; a doctor can't come to the conclusion someone has a torn cartilage in their knee, just because it's sore - it needs an MRI scan and then surgery. A mechanic can't just conclude a heating matrix has failed, without checking the thermostat first. It's logic.

Are you suggesting the new thermostat has made your car worse? I'm not sure how this is actally possible if it is a new unit.

What's more likely is the fact that the heating was a problem regardless and the heating was always going to give up the ghost completely.

I can only reiterate: surprised you are upset. As much as we all begrudge paying out for car repairs, I don't see what the problem is. If you took it to a small claims court, you'd be laughed at.

I'll stick to the facts:

1. The Bill: Myself and the garage owner discussed the issue like a pair of adults and we came to the final agreement of £50 plus Vat to include the unspecified time that he and his staff had spent on the car during the 15 hours they had it, and the replacement thermostat and the coolant. The bill states parts and labour, not a specific period of labour.

2. Better or worse? Yes, whatever the cause is, the heating system in the car right now is WORSE than it was before I took it into the garage - I'm not "suggesting" it, I'm making a statement of fact. Is it fair and acceptable to pay for a replacement product when clearly the original thermostat in the car was not faulty in the first place?

3. Small claims court: "Tell me Mr Customer, is it true that you took your car to the garage, they charged you £60 and the only result is that the small initial problem became much worse?" Laughed at???

[ianash]

INDEED

I don't have a problem at all paying for car repairs, in fact this is a bit of a project to bring back to life a very neglected little vehicle that has come up a treat.

It hasn't been repaired though, it's now worse than it was.

[Jonny87]

INDEED

I don't have a problem at all paying for car repairs, in fact this is a bit of a project to bring back to life a very neglected little vehicle that has come up a treat.

It hasn't been repaired though, it's now worse than it was.

To be quite honest, I frankly couldn't give a flying poo.

You have got a good deal for the work already carried out.

Now just go back there and pay them to fit a new heater matrix.

JOB DONE (probably)

[ianash]

You have got a good deal for the work already carried out.

Right, so they have replaced a part that didn't need replacing, charged me £60 for it and now the heating system is in a worse state than it was before I took it in.

Where in the world is that a "good deal"?

[KeithC]

Bear in mind Keith, I did say that I discussed with the garage that it would probably be around £120 to fix and I was okay with that. Far from receiving "something for nothing", I've received "nothing for £60"!!

No, you received a diagnosis of your problem, something I presumed you asked for considering you took it to a garage. As I've said previously, you cannot expect any garage to spend time looking at your car for free. I don't know what is so hard to understand about that. Garages tend to charge by the hr, that is how they work, so if you took up x amount of their time, then they are quite right in billing you for it.

[KeithC]

Right, so they have replaced a part that didn't need replacing, charged me £60 for it and now the heating system is in a worse state than it was before I took it in.

Where in the world is that a "good deal"?

Can I ask how old you are?