if practicality/ running/ fuel cost is no object - Ford GT - this one will do nicely -
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FOCAMember Since 30 Oct 2012
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Mondeo TDDI sleeper build thread -
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Mondeo Mk3 Sleeper 194 flb.p.t.
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- First Name FOCA
Posted by FOCA on Yesterday, 08:51 PM
Posted by FOCA on Yesterday, 02:45 PM
isnt the Wynns step a bit of a mine field?
Im not an expert at all but I've been reading all sorts and the general consensus has been, if you have a new car or its had plenty and regular oil changes then its fine, but if its a bit long in the tooth with unknown oil changes then doing it may give you more hassle as it breaks up all the old crap, which may either lead to leaks or more likely block things up as it comes off and floats about. I read somewhere that if your going to do it on poorly looked after engines or long oil change intervals, then the first time you'll need to clean it change it, run it and repeat it 2 or 3 times to help reduce the chance of crap getting in to places you don't want it, suggestion was to use cheap oil first for a couple of hundred miles then on the final go put in the good stuff. Using it after should be fine so they say...
We have to be clear that we are talking about fuel or oil additives, you sound like you are talking about oil additives Lenny is talking about fuel additives (obviously 2 different things)
Fuel additives such as Winnes cannot clean the EGR valve, or inlet manifold, they can only clean the fuel lines and injectors, combustion chamber etc, the fuel goes nowhere near the EGR valve or inlet manifold on a direct-injection diesel, to clean the inlet manifold (or EGR valve) you need to take it off and clean it properly
Posted by FOCA on 25 August 2014 - 07:49 PM
I beleive THD less than 1% on the Kappa 4 - means 0,05% :
As for the Class AB vs Class D, at home in a very good listening environment - maybe you are right. Class A - for sure. Still - I own a Pioneer home cinema receiver, with class D - and I beleive it collected top results in every review I have read. And I like it too
In a car - with lot of roadnoise etc - and perhaps playing mp3's - spotify - I do not believe it would be an hearable improvement using class AB over class D.
Ok - i agree with most of that - for most people class D fine and has efficiency advantages when running in a car enviroment, but look at the spec/ quality of the focals - i think that car owners wantling to turn their cars into a high fidelity/ quality enviroment would benifit from the (even slight) quality edge that a class AB amp has over a classD - in my experience a classD amp can get a bit harsh/ gritty at the top end when driven hard at high volume levels, and many musicians, sound engineers, hi-fi enthusiasts etc would hear the difference, i realize manufacturers' are continuing to develop classD designs to bridge the gap to class AB - but for me, class AB has the edge in quality
The difference may be small, and the difference between different speakers (sound quality wise) is probably bigger but with class AB amps available for less than a classD, its a no-brainer (for front speakers at these power levels) for subs or very high power (eg competition) systems,(power/ efficiency over quality) classD may be the way to go
- people debate class D vs class AB -
Posted by FOCA on 25 August 2014 - 05:42 PM
Thanks a million for the kind words. It took a while but I am glad I did most of it myself.
So, thinking that when funds allow, which might be a while, I will get the Infinity amp to replace the Blaupunkt one. Unsure whether I will then keep the Blaupunkt and go passive with the Focal speakers or use the Infinity Amp to go active with the Focal and power the rear speakers with the Blaupunkt amp. Guess I will cross that bridge when I get there.
Massive thanks for all the info given as I have learnt a lot and know that there is still more reading and learning to do. Love how this sound upgrade project started with me knowing very little with the basic stock components in the car and now I have something that I am quite proud out. It still surprises people when they hear it for the first time and that makes me smile
The infinity amp is overpriced at £350, and the total harmonic distortion at the rated output is 1% thats (bad) brobably due to the cass D output stage - translation = its crap
The much cheaper BOSS amps are 0.01% total harmonic distortion at the rated output (exellent quality) - i looked at scores of amps to find an affordable one (or range of amps) with i very high spec (including superior class AB output stages ) at an affordable pric- this amp/ range of amps blows many much more expensive amps away (in terms of quality)
Im not looking at brand names but at technical specs
You could get 2 boss amps, and this active boss x-over -
for less than 1 overpriced (and inferior) amp - and that would mean you have more left over for another set of focals -
so you could have the seperate active x-over (with fine control of the system) + 2 four chanel amps so the front and rears would be active, 8x (an amp for each woofer + tweeter!) 150w = 1200w so awesome power, headroom and clarity - and a fraction of the price of an equivelant system
PS - yes your sub x-over frequency is low, try 100 to 200hz, see how it sounds, you may need to turn the bass down
Posted by FOCA on 25 August 2014 - 04:53 PM
Hi , Hassen, your setup looks great. Great Work I agree with FOCA's advices. But I think class D are totally ok in the listening envirement of a car. Think voltage drop are a bigger concern - class D delivers more power, using less current.
Choosing SQ - active crossovers with time-alignment sure will improve.
The prefab sub looks great. Love the pictures - fun to watch your progress.
I disagree, it may be ok for some that just want to make a noise - but when you want to achiveve hi-fi quality sound in your car - class A-B is better than class D for sound quality classD compromises sound quality for efficiency (better efficiency/ worse sound quality) - classD is OK for subs (because the distortion caused by classD is less noticable at sub frequencies)
They used to say you did not need CDs in a car and tapes (you know, the crappy, hissy compact cassette) were good enough due to the acoustics in a car!
Posted by FOCA on 25 August 2014 - 04:42 PM
Well if you're on at that time what's to say the others aren't too! Anyway, shouldn't you be doing other things at that sort of time like, I don't know, sleeping?!
Mummy sometimes lets me stay up late if its not a school day in the morning
Posted by FOCA on 24 August 2014 - 11:15 PM
Sorry, I know what I read, but is this right? EML light on is NOT an MOT failure?
I want to blank my egr on a Focus euro 4 tdci... from the reading on previous pages mondeo and foci euro 4's are not the same, so perhaps a euro 4 focus might not get the EML light?
The Focus 1.6 TDCI Euro4 can have a solid EGR blanking plate fitted without the EML coming on - many forum members have now fitted one, Lenny has produced a guide -
Posted by FOCA on 21 August 2014 - 03:35 AM
The budget (£118) Boss audio amp has a higher spec and better sound quality than the £350 infinity - t hat is because the Boss has a class AB output stage and the infinity is class D
Class AB has a better sound quality than class D
I dont think there is much you can do without changing components - what is the sub crossover frequency? the levels are meaningless - try changing the subwoofer crossover frequency, and phase - check the realative and absolute phase of all the speakers
The vibes are just cheap speakers and not up to the quality of the focals - the system might sound better with the vibes turned down
Listen to a pro studio setup or a high-end domestic hi-fi then listen to the same music i your car to set up the EQ - if you do this it might work better with different music/ tracks if you find youself changing the EQ for different music tracks all the time
Passive crossovers are not as good as active ones - details are in my previous post(s) - if it was my setup i would ditch the passive x-overs - i would be happy to suggest x-over frequencies
Audio proccesors (the bit ten) are for shaping high-end systems - it would be the last thing you buy after you already had everything else - it cannot fix many deficienceis in the system - There is a saying "you can't polish a !Removed!" (i dont mean your system is a !Removed! - it means sometimes, any amout of E-Qing, prossesors, graphics and fiddling cannot fix some things + it also makes things more complicated )
If you are (reasonably) happy with the system as it is why change it - you could spend 10x as much to get it 10% better - it just depends what you want
Posted by FOCA on 19 August 2014 - 01:08 PM
I had to read all that a few times but I think I got it all now. Great to be learning new things. From what I gather and want to achieve, there will be very little difference for a fairly big outlay on a new amp. I am looking at a SQ setup rather than an SPL as you might have gathered. So, I think I am reaching the limits of what can/need to be done for the current setup. Major thanks for writing all this down and explaining it in simple terms. Really appreciate it
At some point, if I get the itch and money, I will probably get the Audison Bit Ten just to see what's the fuss about because I keep seeing it being used in builds for Soundman Car Audio, which I am addicted watching these days!
Also, today, I spent a bit of time trying to tune the car to my liking as I thought there wasn't enough bass while driving. After about 1 hr of messing with knobs and using an rTA app, I was able to tweak it to my liking. That is until I get bored and decide to mess with it again
Yes, the db is the sound pressure level - so increasing the amp power from 64 to 128 only increases sound pressure level by 3db - not much in absolute terms but it may make a difference in realative terms (eg the extra db may help to drown out road noise)
i found a budget "non premium brand" amp with a similar spec to the premium brand ones you listed (which are very good/ well chosen) -
it has 4 amps, all with 150w rms into 4 ohms, so would get the maximum out of your front speakers, you could use only 2 of the amps in passive mode, use the other 2 for something else (rear door speakers or extra shelf speakers) or configure the amp for active (the amp has built-in x-overs) using all 4 amps for the front speakers - this would optomise the front speakers
The specs on the amp is as good as the premium brands, imo, but at a lower price (perhaps you just pay for the name)
PS - the amp has class AB operation - less efficient than class D (class D is probably ok/ better for subs) but the sound quality is better - this is a high fidelity amp suitable for your high-end full-range speakers
Posted by FOCA on 18 August 2014 - 07:34 PM
That's probably the best post I have seen on this subject, explaining in detail why blanking is good.
Even on my old Pajero's, I was always told "blank the EGR" but never why. I never did it
I'm gonna order a plate now
Re the dash warning light. Other than remove the bulb, is there any way to fool it?
On a Euro4 Mondeo (Focuses can be different) the EML/ dash light is liable to come on eventually, if a solid EGR blanking plate is fitted, no other negative effects should happen, the EML can be reset with a code reader, many Euro4 Mondeo owners chose to run thir cars like that (with the disadvantage of having to reset thier EML but with all the advantages of a solid plate )
There was some talk on other forums about a remmaper that claimed to be able to reset/ electronically delete the EGR,(so the EML did not come on) this could be done on other cars but not on Mk3 Mondeos - it is possible to do theoretically but no-one supplies a service to bo it (to my knowlege)
Its the glow plug light as well and it may need to come on and stay off for the MOT, an under-dash "off" switch could be easily be connected (by someone with a knowlege of electrics/ electronics) or the plate removed for the MOT
Ive read all kinds of ideas (some by people that obviously don't know how the EGR works) but the best way seems just to stick a solid plate on and ignore the EML or keep resetting the codes with a code reader on a Euro4 mk3 Mondeo
Posted by FOCA on 18 August 2014 - 04:00 PM
Ive made up a chart to give you an idea of the sound pressure levels from the front speakers for the power in
91db -( 98)- 1w
94db - (101)- 2w
97db - (104)- 4w
100db - (107)-8w
109db - (116) - 64w
112db - (119) -128w
So if you measure the output of the speaker at 1w at 1 meter you get 91db, each doubling of power means a 3db increase, because humans can hear wisper quiet sounds to very loud sounds we cannot tell the difference between different levels of loudness in absolute terms and with 64w in its 109db, and at 128w 112db, going from 64w to 128 sounds a big difference, but you will not notice it (as much as you might think) in absolute terrms, (only realative to other sound/ noise) this may be enough to drown out the high-speed noise, if not you will be dissapointed, and this could be an expensive upgrade
in brackets are the db chart for speakers with 98db (1w at 1meter) efficiency (like the ones i use (not in my car - they have 136db potential!), in fact i have 100db ultra-high efficeincy ones) - the 98db ones are louder at 32w than the 91db ones at128w -
So if you want to go louder you really need to go for more efficient speakers as you only have another couple of decibels more potential from the front speakers whatever amp you use
Active vs passive - in the passive (2way) system one amp is used to power the woofer and tweeter, a passive x-over is connected between the amp and speakers the low frequencies are fed to the woofer and the high frequencies to the tweeter because the amp has to handle all the frequencies intermodulation distortion is present, the passive x-over has to handle the full power from the amp, and losses occur, other distortions like phase are introduced
in an active 2-way system 2 amps are used (one for the tweeter, one for the woofer) the amps are connected directly to each speaker, so there is no passive x-over to overload, lose power, or introduce distortion, headroom and power handling are increased, the crossover is electronic, and splits the sound before it is fed into each amp - so fine control of realative volume and frequency are possible (easily and without power losses) - some amps have (midrange) x-overs built in (sub x-overs are common)
Often the woofer gets a more powerful amp than the tweeter
So basically an amp upgrade is not going to make a big difference (i will try to find those amps for you anyway) to loudness and you need to do something more radical like replace your speakers with more efficient ones (they are nice speakers- your just never going to have your ears bleeding though), fit infrasonic filters and integrate the frequencies with the sub, and/or go active
Posted by FOCA on 18 August 2014 - 03:03 PM
Also it raises the height of the road itself blocking off drainage etc, did it down my road and the surface spilled over onto the pavement a few houses down.
It's also dangerous to brake on sharply if a child runs out in the road etc, noise pollution is increased, trucks make groves in it within 10 seconds which again when it rains they fill with water and cause a hazard to motorists, there are no lines painted on them for weeks which in the event of an accident makes it harder to dispute fault if applicable, It's harder for me to speed on, very dangerous for cyclists not just Mbikers can't really take a road cycle onto gravel now, it's more difficult for Old dears with Zimmerframes / wheelchairs to cross, dogs crossing the roads may hurt their feet.
Also what I fail to understand, partly made from Bitumen, is subject to COSHH regulations and only to be handled with appropriate PPE...so members of the public can freely be forced to make contact with it and not be told of it's potential health issues? the HSE have forgotten a few things when it suits them.
Shhh - it will be our little secret - i don't think anyone else noticed
Posted by FOCA on 18 August 2014 - 06:35 AM
Small update. I have had the new setup for a few weeks now and I think the speakers are well broken in. Still not 100% satisfied as on the motorway, the ambient noise levels are quite annoying. Apart from that, I am very happy with the sound quality in the car.
I have a few questions though:
1. My current amp is rated at 70W rms x 4 channels. My Front Speakers are rated at 80W rms (Focal 165KR). Will I notice any improvement by upgrading the amplifier? Reading up online, suggestions was to have an amplifier pushing around 120W rms to extract the most of my speakers. If this was true, any 4 channel amplifiers that you guys could recommend that will not break the budget?
2. Been doing a bit of research online after hearing about the Audison Bit Ten processor. Very tempted to get one. Any thoughts about it?
Next planning to try to record the current system in 1080p and also get more Silent Coat to lay on the floor of the car.
The Focal 165krs are very high end speakers, they have the flattest frequency response of any car speaker i have seen, they seem to be built for quality, and although not inefficient at 91db, the cone material is optomised (and probably the overall design) for sound quality rather than efficiency (or maximum loudness) they are 4 ohms, 80w nominal and 160w peak - the kapton former and quality construction means the power ratings are probably conservative, and they could be driven hard (but not into clipping) for long periods with no trouble BUT - you won't notice a big difference (as much as you might think) between 70w and 120w as the increase is less than 3db
Are you using the passive crossovers on the front speakers? - active crossover(s) and seperate amps can increase power, as well as reduce intermodulation distortion and the distortion introduced by the passive crossovers (generally clipping/ overload distortion and phase distortion) - if you used the 70w for the tweeter and 120 for the woofer (190 in total - you would need an active x-over though) that would noticably increase power (and quality) - dont forget to check the power output realative to the ohms (varies)
It is possible to fit an infrasonic filter to cut the low bass on the front speakers - this can increase power handling/ headroom on the amps and speakers + reduce multi-point phase distortion from the various different low-bass sources, - the sub would handle all the low bass, the speakers and sub x-over would have to be matched and carefully set/ selected and the sub would have to be powerful
If you could describe in detail your complete setup and the way it is wired
I have found a low cost but high-power (not super high-end but decent) amp manufacturer online but have lost it again (cant even remember the name - nothing id heard of before but the specs were good) - i will see if i can find it again
Processors are great but you are only as good as your weakest link and if you have any underlying deficiencies (like its not loud enough, or the bass isnt deep enough) it will still show through, best to get the core system sorted then add a prossesor (in my opinion)
Posted by FOCA on 16 August 2014 - 03:19 PM
Has anyone has their focus ST upgraded with this kit? If so could you tell me if its worth it or not and give me some 0-60 times.
This is the kit im talking about: http://www.pumaspeed...lus-bhp_566.jsp
Edit (I meant 350rs kit in the title.)
£5000 pounds is a lot of money, its still a modified ST225,(it is unlikely it will increase the value of the ST225 as much as the cost) you would be better off buying a genuine, factory made Focus mk2 RS
The Mk2 RS has a lot of design changes that the ST225 does not, like it has an ATB (automatic torque biasing) diff, this is an advanced type of limited slip differential that can distribute the torque to the 2 front wheels (basically so both front wheels grip instead of just one(the one with the least traction) ) - the ST225 (and this expensive kit) has to make do with a regular diff + a traction control system that can brake the front wheels (not as effective as an ATB)
So in terms of value for money, depreciation, and "go per pound" you would be better off with a (real) Focus RS mk2 han wasting your money on this kit, in my opinion
With all that power going through the front wheels and no limited slip diff or ATB, the 0-60mph is not going to change much - i have figures for the ST225 and the (Factory) RS the 0-60 is similar, even though the RS is more powerful, - only at higher speeds is there a big difference
with the ATB (+ other things) and more power (than the pumaspeed ST) the RS is better -
RS mk2 - 400 bhp / 2010 / low milage £23000 -
Posted by FOCA on 16 August 2014 - 02:19 PM
There are many misconceptions about EGRs blanking plates etc -
#1 - you might think a working EGR valve would be best for your car/ engine, as this was how the car ws designed - WRONG:- even a brand new EGR valve in perfect condition contaminates the inlet (including the manifold, inlet ports etc) with carbon, causes hesitation, flat spots etc - a working EGR valve is BAD NEWS for your engine
#2 even if you clean out your inlet manifold (this requires taking it off and cleaning it with petrol and/or a high powered jetwash) every so often, if you are running an unblanked EGR it will eventually just fill up again - this can "choke" the engine - once you fit your solid plate and clean out your inlet manifold, the innlet manifold will stay clean - so no need to continually clean it out
#3 the whole concept of recirculating exhaust gasses (a waste product) and feeding them back into the inlet is a bad one, diesel engines run best on clean air, and diesel - not exhaust gases - its a bit like a human eating his/her waste - not good
#4 on modern deisels, the EGR valve opens only at part-throttle at lower revs - this is when you get the flat spot (aka hesitation or lag) when the enine ingests burnt exhaust gases instead of air (the burnt exhaust gases reduce or prevent combustion because they do not contain oxegen like air does)
#5 Any emmission control system that reduces MPG (even by a small amount) may have a worse long term effect on the enviroment due to the enviromental impact of having to produce more fuel - a diesel without a DPF or EGR is more efficient, energy and resources do not have to be used to produce the DPF/EGR, + when the DPF/EGR get filled up/ old or faulty, tey can have a worse effect on emmissions than not having one.
#6 - often, these things are political rather than technical, eg eurocrats/ politicians say "look what we are doing to help emmissions/ the enviroment" - even when they don't really work
#7 - when the car/ engine is new, the EGR valve may help emmisions, (but even then has a negative effect on MPG, performance efficiency, and that extra (even small amount of) fuel (multiplied by all the cars fitted with an operational EGR valve) can have a worse impact on the enviroment compared to not having an operational EGR valve - as the car gets older the inlet gets choked up, further reducing MPG, performance and efficiency, and increasing smoke output (or choking up the DPF, if one is fitted) this is even assuming the EGR does not fail, as if it does things can get much worse than that (with a leaky or permenantly stuck open EGR valve the car can produce a smoke screen james bond would be jealous of)
So the long term negative effect of fitting an EGR valve in the 1st place (or running without a blanked/ disabled or deleted valve) may be worse than running with a solid plate(etc), on the envioroment , as well as definately for reliability, elimination of flat spots hesitation and lag and preventing the inlet being contaminated
#8 after a solid plate is fitted there is no problem with moisture/ rust, draining water as the EGR valve is disabled anyway
#9 it is not nessesary to fit the solid blanking plate on the EGR cooler on a mk3 mondeo diesel, it can be fitted next to the EGR valve you can get solid plates that slot in (you don't even need to take the nuts off, just loosten them) - a solid plate is essential, ones with holes defeat the purpose of the plate, the EGR valve must be working properly to fit plates with holes, a solid plate can "fix" a faulty/ leaking EGR valve, by effectively disabling it - 2 solid plates can also be fitted (one next to the EGR valve, another next to the cooler) and the egr pipe removed
#10 the EGR valve has a design fault - it exists!
I am an engineer, I designed/ developed the first EGR delete kit for rear-mounted EGR Mondeos,about 9 years ago then improved the design, this has been copied and made into a commercial product, i have been an advocate for fitting solid plates and have advised and encouraged forum members to fit solid plates, and have helped to promote the resurgence of interest in the subject
I collect information on the subject and listen to feedback from members/ Ford owners that have fitted solid plates, i try to discourage misconseptions/ misinformation about the subject, especially from those that have never fitted a solid plate or understand the princepals etc
I suppose with the 9years of running without an EGR valve (i don't and wouldent have one on my car, i sold mine on ebay years ago!) + designing the delete system + following the subject for years + my technical knowledge = my involvement in advising/ discussing fitting them on the forum must make me an "expert"
I understand others have their opinions - and they are entitled to them, it is a subject i feel strongly about and don't mean to cause offence, of even to discourage members to express their opinions or to debate this, or other topics