Intermittant Engine Malfunction on Dash

[guy woodbridge]

Garage have rung me. The fluid is £400! They can only get it from Ford and that’s for 5litres!

i can’t afford that, crazy money. Surely it can be bought somewhere else for less than that?

[guy woodbridge]

If anyone would happen to know the actual part number or the name of the actual ELOYS fluid, then I would be very grateful!

[guy woodbridge]

ok. went back to garage this morning as was running poor. fault codes came up relating to lack of dpf fluid. plus a couple of others related to that. They have temporarliy cleared the codes. have now ordered what i hope is the right fluid to top up the EOLYS. been a mare to work out which one I should buy.

I hope this helps someone in the future. will update soon.

[guy woodbridge]

car back at garage with DPF fluid. If I am completely honest. I am not convinced they will be able to reset the counter and clear the codes. Not sure if anyone else has had experience of this?

Wonder if its worth looking for a half decent indy who can do it?

[TomsFocus]

Do you have a laptop?  You can do it yourself with an elm cable and FORScan.

Aftermarket PAT fluid can be bought for about £35 a litre last time I checked.

I was going to suggest doing it for you if you lived in Woodbridge Suffolk...but I guess there are more Woodbridges around lol.

[Tdci-Peter]

5 hours ago, guy woodbridge said:

I am not convinced they will be able to reset the counter and clear the codes.

The garage sounds a bit cavalier with the electronics systems. I would hope they stored, or noted down all codes before deleting them. They are there for a reason, and that is to aid owners and mechanics in locating faults, not just to annoy. Though I know it seems like the latter sometimes, and the DTCs can be misleading if interpreted directly. Which makes all the more important to record all codes found, along with actual symptoms. Sometimes they add up to a different problem when looked at together.

There is no such thing as temporarily clearing codes in reality. If they return it is new codes from a repeat of the conditions that caused the fault.

Like Tom says, it should be dead easy to reset the counter via Forscan, which I note you have tried. Did you ever try replacing the dodgy ELM, the quality of those things is very variable. I have found the programme itself (I use it on a laptop) to be very safe and reliable. Just done another 30 minute data log run on my car, reading 8 channels continuously at quite a high speed while using the car normally. Not a glitch from the system.

If Forscan with a decent ELM can not reset the system, then there must be another underlying fault, and looking in detail at all codes available might just give a pointer in the right direction.

 

[guy woodbridge]

If they cannot reset then I’ll buy a decent elm cable to replace the rubbish one I have.

the car has lost power and is not running great to be honest. I’m wondering if it will end up needing a dpf deepclean to sort it out now. Fingers crossed a regen will clear it.

[guy woodbridge]

Ok got the car back. The annoying ding dong ding dong and dash warning saying engine malfunction has gone. The ELOYS has been put in. I’m guessing that the counter has been reset hence the lack of engine malfunction warning?

The car drives poorly still with little power on hand (feels like the turbo isn’t kicking in, although I think this is more because the dpf is blocked). The eml came back on on the way home. Again I would guess because it is still blocked.

Garage recommends a good blast down the motorway. Personally I am worried about doing that as do t want to breakdown or loose too much power in a dangerous situation. I’m not sure how much the car needs to do regeneration. As in speed and time?

my current thoughts are to pretty much rag the car to get it running hot and get a regen going. Failing that book it innwxt week for a dpf clean?

thnaks again all for your input so far. 

[guy woodbridge]

Oh and I’ll order a decent elm lead on Monday as skint now 😊

[Tdci-Peter]

20 hours ago, guy woodbridge said:

my current thoughts are to pretty much rag the car to get it running hot and get a regen going. Failing that book it innwxt week for a dpf clean?

Hmmm, the idea that high speed or high revs is enough to properly regenerate the dpf is deeply flawed. 70mph, even in 4th gear, probably will not get the exhaust gas hot enough to burn all soot. Diesels are inherently efficient, and that means low exhaust gas temperature. Less wasted heat.

The way these engines do a regen is for the ECU to take special actions, like doing late injections of fuel, throttling the air intake, and by-passing the intercooler. All designed to raise the exhaust temperature. These actions are effective in normal driving conditions, cruising at 50mph is fine. This active regen is much more effective than any passive regen that may occur at speed.

Forscan can tell you how long ago (in km) that the last regen happened, so will tell you if the ECU is trying to regen. If there is any other fault present, like EGR or throttle valve faults, it may not even try to regen. Again, diagnostics can help here.

I am very, very suspicious of advertised "deep cleans". If it is just some snake oil put into the engine or intake system, then it will not cure any significant problem. Removing the dpf is an essential first step. Soot can be burnt off by careful application of heat, but too hot will damage the dpf insert. There is a narrow window between soot ignition temperature and damage. Eolys widens that gap, by lowering soot ignition temperature, but if the system ran out of Eolys some time ago, there may be un-modified, harder to burn soot in the dpf. Ash cannot be removed by heat at all, if it can be removed it will only be by back flushing the filter, which would have to be off the car.

Forscan can initate a forced regen, with the car stationary. It is very noisy, and rarely does a long term cure, though if the problem is soot build-up due to lack of normal regens, it may do the job.

On older cars where Ford francised dealer costs are not economically viable for jobs like this, then a system like Forscan is really essential. Though it does take a little bit of getting used to.

This thread contains a bit more about dpf regens, it is for a 2l Mk3, so there are differences, but my regen overview is still valid, and there is a pdf further on (on page 2 on my browser) from Ford about the Mk2 Focus dpf system.

 

[guy woodbridge]

Hiya. I was thinking more along the line of Halfords who remove the dpf and inject fluids into it. Or others who remove and use ultrasound cleaning (that is more expensive minD)

[Tdci-Peter]

2 hours ago, guy woodbridge said:

I was thinking more along the line of Halfords who remove the dpf and inject fluids into it.

This is one review of the Halfords DPF Deep Clean (dated 2015), from: https://www.hypermiler.co.uk/dpf-diesel-particulate-filter/halfords-autocentre-now-offering-dpf-cleaning-services-but-beware

-----

"In my call to a very helpful “Dave” at local Halfords Autocentre, I asked for a little more information regarding what they actually do to save your DPF and I was a little shocked.

Their maintenance clean is basically just adding snake oil a DPF cleaning additive to the fuel tank. This service is charged at £35, so the additional of a useless chemical seems a little steep and completely unwarranted in our eyes, especially considering you can waste less than £10 on Amazon for a bottle of STP / Wynns Diesel Particulate Filter Cleaner. Read more about DPF cleaning additives here!)

The DPF deep clean does offer a little more for your money. In conjunction with the snake oil above, they perform what was described as a “forced regeneration” (more on forced DPF regeneration here). This is the same process which a dealer regeneration would take but without a key stage. A forced regeneration is performed by heating the DPF filter to extreme temperatures to burn off the particulate which is blocking the filter. This process requires the engine to be held at high revs for a sustained period."

-----

No mention of removing the DPF. The DPF additives like Wynns usually contain much the same active ingredients as Eolys (Cerium Oxide), so will do little on a PSA/Ford engine which already has this additive. And Forscan can initiate the Forced regen process. See Tom's article:

 

I had not heard about changing the oil after a forced regen before. As the heat in the engine can not really be more than the cooling system can deal with, & it has an oil cooler, I doubt if this is really needed. Maybe the high rpm will force more carbonised oil down past the fast moving pistons, though. And oil changes are always good for the DV6 (1.6TDCI) engine, which tends to have a carbon build-up problem in the oilways.

As for ultra-sonic cleaning, it assumes that the soot or ash is soluble, or weakly enough attached to be taken off into suspension by the cleaning agents. I advise doing quite a bit of research, and looking very critically at sales claims before parting with any significant money.

Also it may be wise to check first for other error codes that may be preventing the ECU from doing normal, active regens.

[guy woodbridge]

https://m.ebay.co.uk/itm/Modified-ELM327-USB-Ford-Elmconfig-Focccus-Forscan-Focus-Smax-Mondeo-Kuga-CMax-/273238881331?oid=221543514919

does this one look ok? Thinking need one ASAP so need fast delivery.

[Tdci-Peter]

12 hours ago, guy woodbridge said:

does this one look ok?

The link you posted led to a listing by Steve.Elmer that has ended. It led to another posting by a seller called byteport. I am suspicious of that listing, it is not written in proper English for a start, it sounds like translated Chinese:

"Added a switch, full working with forscan software

 This is the only interface in the market to be compatible with software like FORSCAN, FOCCCUS diagnostic software specially designed for vehicles of the brand FORD, MAZDA and some which are free.

 Using the switch, so you can access the FORD proprietary networks like CAN HS, MS CAN."

Steve.Elmer is the eBay outlet for TunnelRat Electronics, one supplier that has been endorsed by people on this site, and they have been supplying Forscan compatible ELMs for several years.

The link I found, a couple of quid dearer, but by Steve.Elmer, is:

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/New-Modified-ELM327-USB-Ford-Elmconfig-Focccus-Forscan-Focus-Smax-Mondeo-Kuga/222936057308?hash=item33e80645dc:g:VgEAAOSwCQxavShr

 I know almost all the ELMs are made in China, but I also know the the quality of Chinese stuff can be as good as anywhere in the World if you control the source properly, or absolutely dire and the pits if there is no control. An experienced importer like TunnelRat will have better chance of control than a random seller. And you have more comeback if there is a problem. Their listing specifically mentions recommendations on Forums, probably including this one, so they have something to lose!

 

[guy woodbridge]

Car is running like a pig now unsurprisingly. Elm lead ordered via the advice from Tdci-peter. should arrive by the weekend. I am not driving the car now as it is awful. ill get it connected up and post back.

The car is also booked in (for now) for next Tuesday with my local garage who are really decent. https://www.approvedgarages.co.uk/Garage/Burnlee-Garage/

I should of gone to them from the start to be honest. They said that even if the EOLYS fluid has been topped up, it would of needed to be bled through properly and the counter reset. This i knew but i have doubts that it was done properly at the other garage. They also said that an EML would almost certainly stop a Regen from happening. I asked it they could do a forced regen. they said yes but any eml faults will stop them being able to do one.

Basically the phone call i had with them (Burnlee) felt as if they new what they were talking about where as before i felt i knew more than them (or at least as much).

Thanks so much for the help so far. I will keep updating.

[guy woodbridge]

Hi an update. The car is a mess! The garage (my local trusted place, not the previous place i went to) have just called me to say that lo0ads of stuff is loose and looks like a botch job has been done at some point. Turbo intercooler is loose, loads of pipes are loose/not connected properly injectors have a bungy strap over them. They asked me if i had any idea what has been going on!I said I have no idea!  They said they could hear their was an issue with pressure straight away? Something like that anyway.

Makes no sense to me. These guys are not rip off merchants either and have a very good reputation in our village.

[Tdci-Peter]

5 hours ago, guy woodbridge said:

They said they could hear their was an issue with pressure straight away

If any of the pipes to the intercooler are loose, then there will be a hissing noise when the turbo ramps up. If the leaks are bad enough, it can give error codes like P0299 (turbo underboost).

[guy woodbridge]

Garage called. Said car is ready to be picked up. £140 all in. If they have truelly managed to sort it then I’ll really happy with that. That included sorting out the loose connections, some diesel as needed a quarter of a tank, a regen, diagnostics & of course labour.

cant get back in time today, but will collect tomorrow. Will post back how that car is running.

[guy woodbridge]

Car is running fine! power is back and running smooth. Turbo hose not connected, intake hoses loose, engine temp sensor fault (cleared and not returned) Soot load pressure 2.95, force regen ok, soot load pressure now 0.29.

So there you go! Seems that the previous garage where messing around with the car and made matters way worse than they were before.

[Stoney871]

Car is running fine! power is back and running smooth. Turbo hose not connected, intake hoses loose, engine temp sensor fault (cleared and not returned) Soot load pressure 2.95, force regen ok, soot load pressure now 0.29.
So there you go! Seems that the previous garage where messing around with the car and made matters way worse than they were before.

Sounds about right.
Seems like they undid every hose under the bonnet then went for a smoke break and forgot what they had done.

Sent from my SM-G965F (S9+)

[guy woodbridge]

Out of interest. The readings for the soot load pressure. Does anyone know where those figures stand? Not sure it was realy high before the froced regen, plus are they ok now?

Many thanks 🙂

[Tdci-Peter]

On 7/11/2018 at 5:44 PM, guy woodbridge said:

Soot load pressure 2.95, force regen ok, soot load pressure now 0.29.

 

3 hours ago, guy woodbridge said:

Does anyone know where those figures stand?

Not really from those figures, there are no units, and the conditions (engine speed & load) are not given. If they are in kPa at idle, then 3kPa would be very high, and 0.3 is not bad, maybe a little high.

A possibly better guide is the km to ashfull PID, that can be read by Forscan. This is an estimate of the state of the DPF, by the ECU. It can go up or down depending on how successful a regen was. Checking this occasionally over several weeks can give some clue of at least what the ECU thinks of the DPF.