Civil enforcement PCN

[Guest]

Hi guys so it was 9pm and there was no space so I decided to park in a car park which I thought was free, it was Coventry road Birmingham. This was 02-08-18, yesterday I receive a PCN from a company called Civil enforcement. The car park is very poorly light and you can barely see the small signs that say call and pay. So i was just wondering do I have to pay? Thanks 

[TomsFocus]

You can appeal it through POPLA.  Can't really just ignore them these days though.

[Stoney871]

These so called parking tickets are dealt with under the civil law rather than criminal.

Proceedings for non payment would be dealt with in the county court for which a CCJ may be issued.

 

In practice, many people have found that the best thing to do is to ignore all communication from whoever has issued the 'ticket'.

 

They have obviously obtained details from DVLA, and written to the registered keeper.

 

The claim would be based on the law of contract, so for a claim to be successful the claimant would have prove that the defendant intended to enter into a legally binding contract with them.

This can get complicated (for the claimant) if the person who parked the car was someone other than the registered keeper, because in accordance with criminal law the registered keeper is not obliged to name the driver at the time of the alleged 'offence'.

 

Tbh I wouldn't avoid paying but would go to the car park and take video or photographs by day and night proving the poor sign placement and lack of lighting (to be contractually binding the signs must be at a readable height and visible / legible in all lighting conditions).

If you intend to appeal then do not pay first, they will consider this as accepting liability and will ignore appeals.

Remember that the letter is an invoice for services ('parking' charge notice) not a ticket ('penalty' charge notice) as would be issued by Council Enforcement Officers.

 

Sent from my SM-G965F (S9+)

 

 

 

 

[Guest]

12 hours ago, Stoney871 said:

These so called parking tickets are dealt with under the civil law rather than criminal.

Proceedings for non payment would be dealt with in the county court for which a CCJ may be issued.

 

In practice, many people have found that the best thing to do is to ignore all communication from whoever has issued the 'ticket'.

 

They have obviously obtained details from DVLA, and written to the registered keeper.

 

The claim would be based on the law of contract, so for a claim to be successful the claimant would have prove that the defendant intended to enter into a legally binding contract with them.

This can get complicated (for the claimant) if the person who parked the car was someone other than the registered keeper, because in accordance with criminal law the registered keeper is not obliged to name the driver at the time of the alleged 'offence'.

 

Tbh I wouldn't avoid paying but would go to the car park and take video or photographs by day and night proving the poor sign placement and lack of lighting (to be contractually binding the signs must be at a readable height and visible / legible in all lighting conditions).

If you intend to appeal then do not pay first, they will consider this as accepting liability and will ignore appeals.

Remember that the letter is an invoice for services ('parking' charge notice) not a ticket ('penalty' charge notice) as would be issued by Council Enforcement Officers.

 

Sent from my SM-G965F (S9+)

Yes that's exactly what I done I went yesterday night and took video of the car park. I read somewhere that is has to be sent within 14 days but they sent it me on the 15th day. Worst case scenario id have to go court and pay something like 200? Which is unlikely and as for popla do I not need a rejection reference first? 

Thanks for the replies guys! 

 

 

 

 

[Stoney871]

Under contractual law private car parks have to cover three points in order to elicit a fee and therefore allow them to be able to levy a pcn for non payment or overstay-

 

For a contract to apply, these three main elements must be present:

There must be an offer, an acceptance of that offer, and a thing called consideration - something of benefit or value for all the parties involved in, or privy to, the contract.

 

If the signs detailing charges were un-illuminated and not clear then technically there was no 'offer' for you to accept, and so no contract formed.

 

I'm not sure if there is a time limitation applied to how long they have to send the invoice, however you have 28 days to appeal the charge.

 

My one top tip is to read the signs carefully (if possible), if the sign mentions anywhere on it about clamping being in force or implies in any way (even if only by a picture of a clamp) then the the signage is unlawful and the pcn is unenforceable as clamping by private companies in the UK (NI excepted) is illegal (since 2012) .

 

Sent from my SM-G965F (S9+)

 

 

 

 

[Guest]

3 hours ago, Stoney871 said:

Under contractual law private car parks have to cover three points in order to elicit a fee and therefore allow them to be able to levy a pcn for non payment or overstay-

 

For a contract to apply, these three main elements must be present:

There must be an offer, an acceptance of that offer, and a thing called consideration - something of benefit or value for all the parties involved in, or privy to, the contract.

 

If the signs detailing charges were un-illuminated and not clear then technically there was no 'offer' for you to accept, and so no contract formed.

 

I'm not sure if there is a time limitation applied to how long they have to send the invoice, however you have 28 days to appeal the charge.

 

My one top tip is to read the signs carefully (if possible), if the sign mentions anywhere on it about clamping being in force or implies in any way (even if only by a picture of a clamp) then the the signage is unlawful and the pcn is unenforceable as clamping by private companies in the UK (NI excepted) is illegal (since 2012) .

 

Sent from my SM-G965F (S9+)

 

 

 

 

yes is there anyway I can send you this video as I can't attach it here. yes I have sent them an email but don't think I'll get a reply as they say contact via post. Yes it was really dark and no signs were lit up so you are right also on the sign it says report to reception and there was none I asked a few people around and there was no reception. 

[zain611]

@Haider55 good to see you on the forum 👍. The people here are really helpful. 

[Stoney871]

If you P/m me I'll give you an email address to send to.

Sent from my SM-G965F (S9+)

[Luke4efc]

Post up the PCN (or PM me it) covering any personal details but leave dates/times visible. This letter (known as the Notice To Keeper) has to comply to POFA 2012 for them to place liability on the registered keeper. They usually mess up and a good worded appeal will mean they can only chase the driver.

Don't ignore it (I'm pleasantly surprised nobody has said ignore) as they have 6 years to take you to court.

The advise to not name the driver still stands, even when posting on forums etc. Refer to them as the driver only. 

Civil Enforcement Ltd. Seem to be getting more active in court. These figures don't include how many cases were paid upon receiving a claim form or letter before claim.

 

[Guest]

 

22 hours ago, Luke4efc said:

Post up the PCN (or PM me it) covering any personal details but leave dates/times visible. This letter (known as the Notice To Keeper) has to comply to POFA 2012 for them to place liability on the registered keeper. They usually mess up and a good worded appeal will mean they can only chase the driver.

Don't ignore it (I'm pleasantly surprised nobody has said ignore) as they have 6 years to take you to court.

The advise to not name the driver still stands, even when posting on forums etc. Refer to them as the driver only. 

Civil Enforcement Ltd. Seem to be getting more active in court. These figures don't include how many cases were paid upon receiving a claim form or letter before claim.

 

Sorry for the slow reply mate, I have attached the picture. 

 

[Luke4efc]

I take it no pictures were supplied? Either way it fails POFA 2012 as with ANPR it has to be issued within 14 days (Schedule 4, paragraph 9). The PCN isn't void because of this, however they can't place liability on the registered keeper, only the driver (which of course you're not going to name or say it was you).

If there's also no photographic evidence supplied then pretty sure it doesn't comply with POFA either. I found an old template for dealing with these but hasn't been updated for the new GDPR stuff so you will have to edit it. It's a good start though. Try to use email (preferably) or online appeal service (be careful what details they ask you to enter) rather than post. If you have to post then don't bother with recorded delivery as they will refuse to sign for it. Just get proof of postage (free) from the post office. A court would say it's presumed to be delivered after 2 working days.

Dear Sir or Madam

PCN No: xxxxxxxxx

I am writing to you as keeper of the vehicle and note the contents of your letter dated XXXXXXX. This debt is denied. Your letter does not comply with the Protection of Freedoms act 2012 as it was not served within the 14 days as required under Schedule 4 of the Act. As such, there is no keeper liability and you must now take the matter up with the driver. As there is no legal obligation to name the driver and no moral reason to hand over a friend or family member to be harassed by a parking company, I decline to do so. You may not make any assumptions on this.

Further, as this matter is causing myself and my family considerable distress and you no longer have reasonable cause to hold my data on your system, under Section 10 of the Data Protection Act you must remove my data from your systems and that of your agents and confirm you have done so within 21 days. Failure to respond is a breach of the relevant section of the Data Protection Act and will be reported to the ICO. This may result in sanctions being taken out against you, including suspension of your licence as a Data Controller. This could have an adverse effect on your business. You should treat this as a Formal Section 10 Notification and pass to your Data Controller.

I now consider this matter closed. Do not write to me again, save to confirm your compliance with the Section 10 Notification and cancellation of the ticket.

Yours faithfully

 

Chances are they will refuse it but you can then do your appeal to Popla (which costs them money). They will then hire the likes of DRP (3rd party debt collectors) to send scary letters out to get you to pay. They are completely powerless and are the only letters you can use as emergency toilet paper. You'll then get a letter before claim where you must send a strong appeal to stop court papers. The chances of them going all the way if you submit appeals that mean business are pretty slim, but has happened and are fairly easy to beat in court (or so I was told).

Any chance you still have the original appeal? I hope you haven't given them the slightest hint you were driving as that will make it a lot harder.

[Guest]

45 minutes ago, Luke4efc said:

I take it no pictures were supplied? Either way it fails POFA 2012 as with ANPR it has to be issued within 14 days (Schedule 4, paragraph 9). The PCN isn't void because of this, however they can't place liability on the registered keeper, only the driver (which of course you're not going to name or say it was you).

If there's also no photographic evidence supplied then pretty sure it doesn't comply with POFA either. I found an old template for dealing with these but hasn't been updated for the new GDPR stuff so you will have to edit it. It's a good start though. Try to use email (preferably) or online appeal service (be careful what details they ask you to enter) rather than post. If you have to post then don't bother with recorded delivery as they will refuse to sign for it. Just get proof of postage (free) from the post office. A court would say it's presumed to be delivered after 2 working days.

Dear Sir or Madam

PCN No: xxxxxxxxx

I am writing to you as keeper of the vehicle and note the contents of your letter dated XXXXXXX. This debt is denied. Your letter does not comply with the Protection of Freedoms act 2012 as it was not served within the 14 days as required under Schedule 4 of the Act. As such, there is no keeper liability and you must now take the matter up with the driver. As there is no legal obligation to name the driver and no moral reason to hand over a friend or family member to be harassed by a parking company, I decline to do so. You may not make any assumptions on this.

Further, as this matter is causing myself and my family considerable distress and you no longer have reasonable cause to hold my data on your system, under Section 10 of the Data Protection Act you must remove my data from your systems and that of your agents and confirm you have done so within 21 days. Failure to respond is a breach of the relevant section of the Data Protection Act and will be reported to the ICO. This may result in sanctions being taken out against you, including suspension of your licence as a Data Controller. This could have an adverse effect on your business. You should treat this as a Formal Section 10 Notification and pass to your Data Controller.

I now consider this matter closed. Do not write to me again, save to confirm your compliance with the Section 10 Notification and cancellation of the ticket.

Yours faithfully

 

Chances are they will refuse it but you can then do your appeal to Popla (which costs them money). They will then hire the likes of DRP (3rd party debt collectors) to send scary letters out to get you to pay. They are completely powerless and are the only letters you can use as emergency toilet paper. You'll then get a letter before claim where you must send a strong appeal to stop court papers. The chances of them going all the way if you submit appeals that mean business are pretty slim, but has happened and are fairly easy to beat in court (or so I was told).

Any chance you still have the original appeal? I hope you haven't given them the slightest hint you were driving as that will make it a lot harder.

Hi mate thanks for the template I have sent an online appeal thought there website, I think I may have given away the driver oopppss. Yes no pictures were supplied. Should I just appeal through popla as you can see from the pictures before the signing is very poor and no lighting at night. What do you personally think of the chances of going to court are and will this have any affect on me later on (I'm 19). Once again thank you for your help. 

[Luke4efc]

Don't bother with the template if you've named the driver, if they know it's you then they can still chase after the debt even if they serve the NTK out of time as they don't need keeper liability if they know the driver. Personally I've no experience with signage so maybe seek advice from the Pepipoo forums.

You're a long way off court yet so wouldn't worry too much, but you have to get a decent appeal in before the deadline. If you have already appealed and they have rejected, you should get a Popla code where your next (and hopefully better) appeal should go. There's a certain way to word this stuff and you can't just go off writing whatever you want or they will just say it's not relevant and reject it. Many people get worried about having a CCJ against them and having a bad credit file for the next 6 years (basically you'd struggle to get a mortgage till you are 25). However a CCJ will only be issued if you lose the judgement and don't pay within 28 days.

If it goes to court you have to gather information like an agreement with the landlord that the parking company can operate on their land etc. That's the first hurdle PPC's usually fail at and the judge will throw the case out. That's just for future reference, it makes no odds at this stage. 

[Guest]

I'm thinking off just paying it off and getting the stress off my head, if I was to pay could I claim the money back? I think that now they know it's me there's little chance I'll win. So the poor signage can't help me anyway? And if I was to go court will I have to pay something ridiculous? Thanks 

[Luke4efc]

Poor signage would be pretty much the only way to win at this point, however I don't know much about the ins and outs so will leave it to the experts. Basically you would have to find something in the BPA code of practice that the company has breached and take it from there. I would have thought there is a section about adequate lighting, heights of signs, positioning etc.

If you lost in court I would expect it to be around £300 with fees etc. 

You have very little chance of getting your money back once paid. That's the only thing they care about unless. It's harder to get the money back in court than it is to defend the case in the first place if that's what you mean.

Just note that once you take your appeal to Popla, you lose the opportunity to pay the reduced rate. There are services out there that handle appeals for you for around £10. There's one guy (can't remember his name atm) that has around a 90% success rate. Pretty sure he's from a Facebook group that appeals PCN's. If you have a quick search. Just pick the one with the most members and I'm sure you can't go wrong.

[Guest]

9 hours ago, Luke4efc said:

Poor signage would be pretty much the only way to win at this point, however I don't know much about the ins and outs so will leave it to the experts. Basically you would have to find something in the BPA code of practice that the company has breached and take it from there. I would have thought there is a section about adequate lighting, heights of signs, positioning etc.

If you lost in court I would expect it to be around £300 with fees etc. 

You have very little chance of getting your money back once paid. That's the only thing they care about unless. It's harder to get the money back in court than it is to defend the case in the first place if that's what you mean.

Just note that once you take your appeal to Popla, you lose the opportunity to pay the reduced rate. There are services out there that handle appeals for you for around £10. There's one guy (can't remember his name atm) that has around a 90% success rate. Pretty sure he's from a Facebook group that appeals PCN's. If you have a quick search. Just pick the one with the most members and I'm sure you can't go wrong.

Ahhhh ok I get it now. Also one of the signs says report to reception when there is no reception this is misleading information? I'm just waiting on a reply now. Also it's my first warning letter and they are pretty much threatening me with debt collectors straight away, sure this isn't in line with what BPA says. Hmm seems like I may have found something a quick Google Maps shows there was NO signs at all. I'll attach them now. Thanks 

[Guest]

Oh oo look what I just founddd.

[Luke4efc]

I'd say those google street view images are from either 2009 or 2012 (the 2 big years when google covered the UK) I'd have to check later. Wheel clamping was legal then until POFA came into force. The question is whether those signs are there now. Again I wouldn't know how to word such appeal so would be worth seeking further advice from facebook forums/ Pepipoo etc.

I wouldn't make any contact until you get your rejection letter with your Popla number on. Until then have a read through and take notes from this Pepipoo post. That's how you want to be wording your appeals. I'd say go back to the car park and get pictures of it in the dark from where you parked your car. Obviously you want to do this in such a way that the sign you pictured a few days ago isn't really visible as they will say that you can see the sign but you ignored it.

[zain611]

Does it say on Google maps when that location was taken? 

[Guest]

Guys the image is from 2018. Yes just a waiting game now then. Yes I made a video of the poor signage at night. 

[Guest]

Hi guys just got back from the car park park and it seems I may be in luck. 

[Luke4efc]

7 hours ago, Haider55 said:

Guys the image is from 2018. Yes just a waiting game now then. Yes I made a video of the poor signage at night. 

The C 2018 Google just means the copy-write stuff from this year. It is however still from 2015 so you may have a case.

[Guest]

Hi mate did you see the last picture I just uploaded? 

[Stoney871]

It appesrs that they hsve removed the lettering to try and comply with regulations but as the white shadowing is still pretty obvious then that sign is illegal.

Sent from my SM-G965F (S9+)

[Guest]

Yeaaah so now I'm pretty much safe? One well worded letter will get them of my case? 😊