Bleeding car

[oldrocker72]

Hi Everyone new member here,

I have a Ford Focus 1.8TDCI or TDDI engine MK1 i say either because even though it has TDCI written all over it when ever i Google parts for it, it comes up with TDDI MK3 Mondeo so it's a bit confusing to say the least, anyway due to my own stupidity i ran out of diesel on Saturday  and a friend brought a can to put in the fuel tank, we looked for the bleeder pump didn't find one checked a few things out online and found out it doesn't have one unlike my Shogun and Dexta who both have a bleeder pump,

Well i tried starting the car anyway and it did fire back up and i left it running for a few minutes then turned it off to close the diesel cap and now it won't start checked out about bleeding it on a few Youtube channels and found that i need to buy a bleeder kit which i have they also said about filling the fuel pipe and filter up and a few said that the injectors also need to be loosened up to bleed through as well, is this all correct and is there anything i'm missing a friend of my mother in law said that it's the pump that's packed up and i should scrape the piece of junk as it will cost more than the cars worth,

Anyway any further advice and help from this forum would be much appreciated as the car has been faultless until my dumbass didn't put more fuel in, oh and if anyone can clarify the engine in the car would be helpful as well it does have a sticker on the rocker cover that says Endura C on it but i do have a picture of this if that would help.

[Tdci-Peter]

21 minutes ago, oldrocker72 said:

found that i need to buy a bleeder kit which i have they also said about filling the fuel pipe and filter up and a few said that the injectors also need to be loosened up to bleed through as well, is this all correct and is there anything i'm missing a friend of my mother in law said that it's the pump that's packed up and i should scrape the piece of junk as it will cost more than the cars worth,

Getting the air out of the system can be a pig. A good priming bulb fitted in the fuel line before the fuel filter is one way. Undo the air vent on the filter, and pump until fuel come out, do up the vent, then pump hard for some time. Start the engine with the primer still in line. Keep pumping if it stops.

Removing the primer can be tricky, needs to be quick to avoid fuel draining back to the tank, and sucking air in. I fitted a permanent one way valve in to the fuel line to the filter on mine.

Another option is to use a vacuum pump that is ok with diesel, and suck on the return outlet pipe from the main fuel pump.

Both of these methods avoid getting dirt into the inlet side of the pump. That will destroy the pump or injectors very easily, especially if it is TDCI (common rail).

If it is TDCI, never, ever loosen any high pressure pipes. They are not designed for this, and can leak after, or dirt (even just wear devris from the pipe joints being disturbed) can get in to the injectors. There is no need, the high pressure side is self priming, there is a large flow back to the tank while running. It is the low pressure side of the pump where all the priming problems lie.

You can recognise the common rail by the round spidery thing in front of the engine:

If it has that, then it can not be TDDI. That is the common rail on the 1.8 (Mk1 Delphi & Mk2 VDO),

 

 

[oldrocker72]

Ah so it's possible but can be a bit of a job to do if i do this but it still doesn't start i'm guessing the pump must be on it's way out, need to get it sorted by tomorrow morning as we are off out for the weekend and i have one of those common rail spiders as my wife put it but i was informed that its found on both engines, anyway i will upload a pic of my engine to show you what i mean.

[Tdci-Peter]

2 hours ago, oldrocker72 said:

i have one of those common rail spiders

The TDDI fuel pump will have pipes direct to each injector. As in the photo below. A TDCI has one pipe from pump to common rail, and high speed, high pressure, electrically operated injectors.

The fuel pressure from pump to injectors is 1500Bar, or 22,000 PSI at full engine load. That is a lot of pressure!

I am a bit worried that it ran for several minutes before being unable to re-start. Usually if air gets in, then it stalls in a few seconds. Once running for a while, most of the remaining air gets flushed out into the return pipes. But maybe it got a gulp of air through the filter and into the inlet of the pump just as it stopped. Then it would not restart. Those pumps suck up fuel from the tank easily, but just will not draw air in at all well. There is a low pressure first stage that drives fuel into the main high pressure piston pump, and once this 1st stage gets air in it, it needs priming.

It is mean of Ford not to fit a manual primer. But common to most Ford diesel cars. Vans usually get one, maybe Ford have a low opinion of van drivers, thinking they will often run out of fuel!

 

[oldrocker72]

Tdci-Peter,

My car is definitely a TDCI as i don't have direct fuel pipes from the pump they go from the pump to a common rail spider then to the injectors which are electronically run, when the car fired up i ran it for maybe a minute or two then stupidly turned it off to close the fuel cap i should have left it running for a lot longer, so i need to prime the fuel up to the filter before the high pressure pump would cranking the engine over after that help to get the fuel to the injectors,

One thing is why does it worry you that it won't start after running for a couple of minutes does that mean the pump is knackered then or the fuel system is empty and needs reprimeing with fuel.

[isetta]

based on the problems I had with air in the system after changing fuel filter on my old 1.6tdci (I know it's not same engine but it is common rail like yours) I think there is a good chance your problem is just air in the system and not something more major. Mine didn't have a primer pump on it either. It's so annoying (my sisters Fiesta 1.4tdci has one)

[Tdci-Peter]

5 hours ago, oldrocker72 said:

so i need to prime the fuel up to the filter before the high pressure pump would cranking the engine over after that help to get the fuel to the injectors,

One thing is why does it worry you that it won't start after running for a couple of minutes does that mean the pump is knackered then or the fuel system is empty and needs reprimeing with fuel.

I don't have a huge amount of experience, to be honest. I know that when changing the fuel filter in 2012, I did not have a priming kit, and it was very hard to start. Cranking did not work, though I tried for ages. I tried filling the filter, no better. I had not realised then that there is no low pressure pump in the tank. On the second day, I rigged up a jar of fuel and an air pump to pressurise it into the filter, and after a few goes, it did eventually start.

In 2016, I had a primer and a non-return valve. Did not bother pre-filling the filter at all, just put it in dry and used the primer to fill it with the air vent open. The primer was in the line to the filter inlet. Then I shut the vent, cracked open the outlet pipe from the filter, primed till only fuel came out, refitted the outlet port, & primed hard, pushing fuel into the main pump. It started, stopped once, I re-primed, started again and it ran ok. About 5 minutes to get it going, not 2 days. So I know what not to do, and at least one way of what to do!

If it plays up, use alternate priming and cranking. If it needs more than a few attempt to go, you will need to connect a charger, and give the battery time to recover between attempts. No good at all if the battery discharges, and cranking speed drops. With an assistant you can prime & crank at the same time. Only turn over for 5 to 10 seconds in a burst, the starter is not rated for continuous duty.

The experiences I have had, and heard about are filter changing, not empty tank. Usually once it runs for a few seconds, it means the bulk of the air is out, and it will be ok. That is why I was a bit concerned about running for minutes. But with pipes empty all the way to the tank, it is possible it would take a lot longer to get all the air out, so hopefully that is all it is.

If the car ran ok before the empty tank, then there is no reason why the pump should suddenly fail now. Dodgy pumps usually give some indication like error codes and the EML lighting up.

If it starts with priming, then will not re-start again, suspect a leak. Either the fuel filter gasket, or a crack in a fuel pipe. As most of the feed system up to the pump is under some suction, leaks will allow air in, not fuel out.

[rs200]

I get mine started by spraying damp start into air intake hose,  then let it tick over for a good 10 mins 

[oldrocker72]

14 hours ago, Tdci-Peter said:

I don't have a huge amount of experience, to be honest. I know that when changing the fuel filter in 2012, I did not have a priming kit, and it was very hard to start. Cranking did not work, though I tried for ages. I tried filling the filter, no better. I had not realised then that there is no low pressure pump in the tank. On the second day, I rigged up a jar of fuel and an air pump to pressurise it into the filter, and after a few goes, it did eventually start.

I'm the same i don't have a huge amount of experience with modern diesels my Fordson Dexta was built in 1960 so it's a much simpler system than my Focus and the modern tractors iv driven in the past if they break down the farm owner would just phone the dealers and they would send out a mechanic to sort it out,

Anyway i was also not aware that there is no low pressure pump in the tank and i thought that all diesels had a primer pump fitted its strange to find it doesn't, well i have a friend coming round at the weekend who has a bit more knowledge than me about the system to see if he can get the car running again, the only problem it has is when going up hill it lags in power and takes ages to pick up again, i'm wondering if that's down to a dirty filter at the tank as i don't know when the filters were changed as i bought the car in Febuary and even tho it has a service record book with it there is nothing written down in the book, 

2 hours ago, rs200 said:

I get mine started by spraying damp start into air intake hose,  then let it tick over for a good 10 mins 

My mate suggested doing that but using easy start instead but for me personally i'm not so keen on doing that as a lot of my classic tractor friends have said it can do more damage than good to a diesel engine they refuse to even start their tractors with it,  but anyway will see what happens over the weekend with getting the car started.

[Tdci-Peter]

6 minutes ago, oldrocker72 said:

only problem it has is when going up hill it lags in power and takes ages to pick up again, i'm wondering if that's down to a dirty filter at the tank as i don't know when the filters were changed

I don't think there is any filter in the tank, maybe a bit of gauze at most.

The main filter beside the engine is quite critical, it will cause a lot of problems if blocked. An empty tank could finish off a partly blocked filter, as any gunk in the bottom of the tank may be drawn up. So that is a possible cause of the starting problems.

As I have said above, if you change it, be very careful not to get any dirt into the line from the filter to pump. There are extremely small metering orifices in the injectors, and valves in the pump and injectors are metal/hard seated under immense pressure, so they are extremely intolerant of any dirt!

I use meths to start cantankerous lawnmowers, but I am also cautious about starting fluids for car diesels. The resulting ignitions in the cylinder are totally uncontrolled in timing or strength. I would only use them as a last resort. Though plenty of others have used them often, without problems, I have heard.

A program called Forscan can take real time readings of things like fuel rail pressure and turbo boost. I have seen it working on a Mk1 Focus. So that could be an option if power problems persist. It might be something expensive like fuel pump or turbo, but it might just be a leaky hose or duff sensor.

Some people call the 1.8 a tractor engine, but I like the one I have. It is a simpler, tougher engine than many of the more recent ones, and mine has stacks of power and torque, at least when it is behaving itself! Nothing wrong with tractor engines anyway .

[mjt]

4 minutes ago, Tdci-Peter said:

I am also cautious about starting fluids for car diesels. The resulting ignitions in the cylinder are totally uncontrolled in timing or strength

I have experience of this, trying to start a recalcitrant old Perkins in a boat. It fired at the wrong point, went backwards, and bent the starter shaft. Needless to say I've never used Easy Start since.

[oldrocker72]

Well my mate turned up and just dropped the diesel off as he was off out to a wedding last minute invite apparently, anyway i filled the filter up and tried to fill the pipe  to the fuel tank but its just so solid i can't get it to turn over enough to get the fuel in so didn't get any fuel down it,

But as i filled the fuel filter i put the fuel tank pipe back on and i decided to bleed it through anyway and eventually the bubbles of air had stopped coming from the filter so reconnected the pipe and went to crank it over but not enough juice in the battery to crank it over fast enough to see if it would start, so it's now on charge over night and will try it again tomorrow in the daylight not sure if any fuel was pushed through to the injectors not sure but will give it another go tomorrow, 

Just want to say thanks to everyone for the advice it has been very helpful.

[Tdci-Peter]

8 hours ago, oldrocker72 said:

so it's now on charge over night and will try it again tomorrow in the daylight not sure if any fuel was pushed through to the injectors not sure but will give it another go tomorrow, 

There is a minimum rpm before the injectors will get opened up, on mine it is about 200rpm. And also a minimum fuel rail pressure, about 200Bar. SO the ECU does not even attempt to fire it up before both of those points are reached.

The fuel pump has a return line to the tank. By pushing fuel hard and for some time, into the inlet side of the filter, you can push fuel through the 1st stage of the pump, and push some air out down the return line. It is getting enough fuel into that first stage that is critical. It then pumps it into the 2nd stage main piston pump.

If you can locate and disconnect the return line coming out of the pump, you would be able to see if any fuel and/or air was coming through while priming. Note: Each injector also has a return pipe, they all join up just above the fuel pump. But you won't get fuel up to the injectors just by priming, the main (2nd stage) pump is in the way, it would probably take a lot of pressure to drive any fuel through that. As soon as the engine starts turning over, then if there is plenty of fuel inside the 1st stage pump, it will get into the 2nd stage, and up into the rail.

If there is air in the top of the filter, or in the line from filter to pump, then it may stall. Re-prime & keep trying.

[ScaniaPBman]

My experience with diesels is minimal, but this tip may help or be just noise (unhelpful) to you.

Anyway, I inherited a VW Golf with an old fashioned injector pump, the TDDI type.

After some major head-off work I set off on a test run. I got 2 or 3 miles down the road and the engine died. At the time I blamed my dodgy repair job.

My mate came out with a tow rope and we set off back. There was no brake servo (vacuum was from an engine driven pump) so I kept it in gear with the engine turning over but not firing.

Just as I got near home it suddenly fired up and ran perfectly.

I came to the conclusion that I had purged the fuel system of some air somewhere by the prolonged tow.

This sort of trick may or may not apply to these new fangled common rail systems. I have no idea.

Best of luck.

ScaniaPBman.

 

[TomsFocus]

1 hour ago, ScaniaPBman said:

My experience with diesels is minimal, but this tip may help or be just noise (unhelpful) to you.

Anyway, I inherited a VW Golf with an old fashioned injector pump, the TDDI type.

After some major head-off work I set off on a test run. I got 2 or 3 miles down the road and the engine died. At the time I blamed my dodgy repair job.

My mate came out with a tow rope and we set off back. There was no brake servo (vacuum was from an engine driven pump) so I kept it in gear with the engine turning over but not firing.

Just as I got near home it suddenly fired up and ran perfectly.

I came to the conclusion that I had purged the fuel system of some air somewhere by the prolonged tow.

This sort of trick may or may not apply to these new fangled common rail systems. I have no idea.

Best of luck.

ScaniaPBman.

 

Yep, you can tow start them, the high pressure pump on the CR system is still fully mechanical and belt driven so as long as you're in gear it'll drag the fuel through eventually.  

However it's not the safest way to do it, and is causing wear on the empty unlubricated pump.  It's best left as a last resort if the hand pump fails.  

[lasthope]

my mate just done my filter and used this tool worked spot on can buy kit for 10.49 on ebay 

 

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Hand-Held-Brake-Bleeder-Tester-Set-Bleed-Kit-Vacuum-Pump-Car-Motorbike-Bleeding/282819982213?_trkparms=aid%3D111001%26algo%3DREC.SEED%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D20160908105057%26meid%3D2b18f24f73934a7599ffaaa948f82452%26pid%3D100675%26rk%3D5%26rkt%3D15%26mehot%3Dag%26sd%3D171177951292%26itm%3D282819982213&_trksid=p2481888.c100675.m4236&_trkparms=pageci%3A4ba6e14a-a9e6-11e8-9450-74dbd1804dd1|parentrq%3A7afcee611650aa15b39fecb4ffffd7ab|iid%3A1

[oldrocker72]

Yay the cars running again already taken the wife shopping in it, and all i did was put some fuel in the pipe from the fuel tank to the filter and filled the filter through to the pump and then turned it over and after just a couple of cranks it fired into life and has ran sweet as a nut since then, even the lag going up hill has gone and the car just seems to have even more power than before, the last thing to sort is why the ABS light comes on stays on for weeks and then goes off for weeks but the previous owner said it's been like that ever since they owned the car and it even passed the mot like it last year, anyway just glad i'm mobile again.

This is the simple kit i used to prime and bleed the car.

And you can see the engine running with the ABS light still on.

[Tdci-Peter]

2 hours ago, oldrocker72 said:

it fired into life and has ran sweet as a nut since then, even the lag going up hill has gone and the car just seems to have even more power than before, the last thing to sort is why the ABS light comes on stays on for weeks and then goes off for weeks but the previous owner said it's been like that ever since they owned the car and it even passed the mot like it

Great news about getting it started.

Not quite so good about the ABS. From a copy of the 2012 MoT inspection manual I have, if ABS is fitted, the warning light must be present, must illuminate (eg at ignition on), and must not indicate a fault (eg stay on).

Either the previous owner was lucky and it was out, or the MoT tester was Very obliging(!).

If it is intermittent, it is probably a connection to one of the wheel sensors. Forscan can read ABS codes, and may be able to pin it down to one wheel. At least it can on a Mk2 Focus, I suspect it will also work on the Mk1. Most standard OBD2 readers will not read ABS codes, and may not even work at all on a Mk1 Diesel, as they did not have to be OBD compliant.

So it would be worth some effort into locating the problem before the next MoT. Or just for safety reasons, of course.

[oldrocker72]

On 8/27/2018 at 11:20 PM, Tdci-Peter said:

If it is intermittent, it is probably a connection to one of the wheel sensors. Forscan can read ABS codes, and may be able to pin it down to one wheel. At least it can on a Mk2 Focus, I suspect it will also work on the Mk1. Most standard OBD2 readers will not read ABS codes, and may not even work at all on a Mk1 Diesel, as they did not have to be OBD compliant.

So it would be worth some effort into locating the problem before the next MoT. Or just for safety reasons, of course.

When i bought the car the previous owner said to me that he took the car to an actual Ford dealership and they had the car for about a week trying to find the fault, and they found that there was nothing wrong with the ABS system for some reason the bulb just comes on and off,

He told me that they put it on every diagnostic machine they have and replaced every sensor on the system but it changed nothing about the bulb lighting up,

Personally i felt he was saying this so the car would be easier to sell, and i agree i need to get it checked out for myself.

[Tdci-Peter]

13 hours ago, oldrocker72 said:

the previous owner said to me that he took the car to an actual Ford dealership and they had the car for about a week trying to find the fault, and they found that there was nothing wrong with the ABS system for some reason the bulb just comes on and off,

It may be that the week at the dealership was one of its well behaving weeks. To locate an intermittent fault it has to be present.

The big advantage of having your own diagnostic system is you can check right away, no waiting for days or weeks for a slot. The light will be controlled electronically, probably from the microcontroller in the cluster, receiving CAN messages from the ABS & PCM. This makes random light-on failures unlikely, though I have heard of cases where damp and corrosion can create partial short circuits between pcb tracks. But I would expect the light brightness to be low or variable in that case, compared to the initial full on during the power up check sequence.

I don't have much faith in the average franchised dealer, they are only really interested in flogging new cars, or maybe doing high priced routine servicing on nearly new cars. They are not at all interested in repairing older vehicles, though some individual mechanics may be interested and skilled, if you can find one.

If there really are no codes or ABS problems when the light is on, then I suspect a Cluster problem. You can safely test the ABS by being a bit harsh on the brakes on a muddy or gravelly back road. The only time I feel my ABS is sometimes when I pull over to let a car pass, and one or two of the wheels go off the tarmac into the mud while still braking.

The trouble is, the MoT wording (as I have seen it) does specifically refer to the ABS light as a failable item.

 

[thanuttiscotsman]

You pretty much always have to refill the diesel fuel filter when a diesel runs out of fuel. Most modern vehicles are not self priming and the ones that are meant to mostly don't work. Always remove the fuel filter and fill it to the top with diesel. Don't worry about air in lines and the high pressure pump sucks more than enough to draw the diesel through. It's not uncommon to have to fill the filter twice to achieve the goal. 

Unexperienced people come across this problem all the time when servicing their own cars. It happens because they remove the old diesel filter and bin it, then put a new dry on in and start the car. It'll run for seconds some times a few mins then it cuts out as there is no diesel in the filter to draw through. 

On direct injection pumps you also often have to crack off the diesel pipe nut right on top of the injector then crank it over to allow trapped air to escape, when diesel starts spirting out you tighten the nuts back up and it fires up. 

[oldrocker72]

Hi Everyone,

Sorry for not posting for a while anyway the fuel problem is all sorted and haven't had an issue since so i'm happy with that part of the car,

Anyway took it for it's MOT today and it failed due to the ABS light coming on during the test such a shame the ***** light had been off for over a week, and the rear brake pipes being corroded so they said to get it through it's MOT i'm looking at £250-£300 car only cost me £300 to buy but the wife likes the car so i have to spend the money to get it through the test, 

I had a bit of a chat with the guy at the garage and he said that it could be the corroded pipes that are causing the issues with the ABS/BTCS/TCS lights being on and if that's the case then it will be straight forward to sort out and pass, if not then it's a case of having to have the code checker diagnostic machine put on the car and the codes checks to see if any show up and if so where we go from there.

[isetta]

cant really see the rusty brake pipes having any effect on the ABS. If you have brake pressure on the pedal and the pipes are not leaking then the ABS system could not be aware of the rust on the outside of the pipes as far as I can see.

Could be a wheel sensor fault or a bad wire connector or a faulty ABS pump or other things.  needs code reader on it which would point to something more specific.

 

[Tdci-Peter]

5 hours ago, oldrocker72 said:

they said to get it through it's MOT i'm looking at £250-£300

If that amount is just for the brake pipes, I think I would investigate the ABS first. I wonder if the MoT did the brake efficiency test? Any problems there might show a blocked pipe or jammed piston. Just possibly that could affect the ABS, though most ABS light failures are wheel sensors, wiring or in the ABS unit.

I also can not see any link between external corrosion and ABS, and surely any leaks would be easily visible, the oil does not evaporate at all quickly.

If the problem is in the ABS unit, then really the only hope is to get a used one, a new or fully recon one would be expensive for the car, with the pipes etc, sadly. Bleeding an ABS unit takes quite a bit of effort, so would be best done before the brake pipe repair so the system can all be bled in one.

Forscan only costs about £17 (for the ELM327 adapter) if you have a Windows laptop or similar. It should be able to read codes from the ABS unit, which would be a start, at least.

[oldrocker72]

23 hours ago, Tdci-Peter said:

If that amount is just for the brake pipes, I think I would investigate the ABS first. I wonder if the MoT did the brake efficiency test? Any problems there might show a blocked pipe or jammed piston. Just possibly that could affect the ABS, though most ABS light failures are wheel sensors, wiring or in the ABS unit.

No that's for everything checking the ABS and fixing the ABS and the brake pipes he told me he did the full MOT and it passed everything else but not the pipes or the ABS fault, i have looked at the rear brake pipes and i'v noticed that on one side the brake pads are wearing unevenly as the brake disc is really shiny near the wheel hub but rusty as hell near the outer part of the disc, i also noticed that the calipers are both just rusty as hell i'm surprised they haven't fallen to bits to be honest with you, also both rear discs are getting badly worn and rusty as hell so was thinking that if i change everything the pipes calipers and discs that might solve the ABS problem, the guy at the garage agreed that might be the problem as everything is just so ***** rusty on the rear brakes,

Also this bulb has blown i'v looked into changing it and one YouTube i watched he basically took the front end of his car to bits to change the bulb, he also had 2 different bulbs so could someone clarify what bulb goes in there please much appreciated.