2009 1.4tdci Fiesta juddering & engine management light

[BP2411]

[BP2411]

P0380 - GLOW PLUG/HEATER CIRCUIT A

P1463 - A/C PRESSURE SENSOR INFUFFICIENT PRESSURE CHANGE

P0194 - FUEL RAIL PRESSURE SENSOR CIRCUIT INTERMITTENT/ERATTIC (BANK 1)

P0341 - CAMSHAFT POSITION SENSOR A CIRCUIT RANGE/PERFORMANCE (BANK 1 OR SINGLE SENSOR)

P0193 - FRP SENSOR HIGH INPUT

P0089 - FUEL PRESSURE REGULATOR A PERFORMANCE

P0184 - FUEL TEMPERATURE SENSOR A CIRCUIT INTERMITTENT

P0183 - FUEL TEMPERATURE SENSOR A CIRCUIT HIGH INPUT

P120F - FUEL PRESSURE REGULATOR EXCESSIVE VARIATION

B10BD - MULTIFUNCTIONAL SWITCH (ADDITIONAL FAULT SYMPTON - CIRCUIT OPEN)

B1175 - DRIVERS DOOR AJAR SWITCH

B1A79 - REAR FOG LAMP

[Tdci-Peter]

4 hours ago, BP2411 said:

P0380 - GLOW PLUG/HEATER CIRCUIT A

P1463 - A/C PRESSURE SENSOR INFUFFICIENT PRESSURE CHANGE

P0194 - FUEL RAIL PRESSURE SENSOR CIRCUIT INTERMITTENT/ERATTIC (BANK 1)

P0341 - CAMSHAFT POSITION SENSOR A CIRCUIT RANGE/PERFORMANCE (BANK 1 OR SINGLE SENSOR)

P0193 - FRP SENSOR HIGH INPUT

P0089 - FUEL PRESSURE REGULATOR A PERFORMANCE

P0184 - FUEL TEMPERATURE SENSOR A CIRCUIT INTERMITTENT

P0183 - FUEL TEMPERATURE SENSOR A CIRCUIT HIGH INPUT

P120F - FUEL PRESSURE REGULATOR EXCESSIVE VARIATION

Gone from not enough info to too much!

The first thing to do is to clear the DTCs, now you have noted them down. Then see if any come straight back. Try a start and see if more appear, then a run. Finding just when DTCs appear is a useful clue.

There are 3 relating to the FRP Sensor, so that is a possible candidate. 2 for Fuel Temperature and 1 for Camshaft. All these could cause the engine malfunction warning, FRP (Fuel Rail Pressure) and Camshaft sensor intermittent failures could well cause juddering. Fuel Temperature sensor is less likely to have such direct symptoms as juddering.

Glowplugs on the 1.6TDCI can cause the warning and 'limp' mode (with no standard OBD errors), I don't know if it does on the 1.4, and I doubt if it would cause juddering.

I think I would ignore the A/C one for now. The BCM errors could be real, or just old codes. But I don't feel they are linked to the PCM faults.

The other possibility is supply or reference voltage errors, stacking up with the P0643 code from earlier. This would cause all sorts of high / low sensor readings, just as you have. It could be a dodgy 12v supply wire or connection somewhere. Or even battery or alternator problems. But there don't seem to be any other voltage related codes in eg, the BCM, so I would discount those last two for the moment.

Forscan can quite easily display and log sensors like FRP & Fuel Temp. But see what codes return most frequently first.

[BP2411]

Do you know which of them error codes are on the multi plug connector in the engine bay?

Obviously the glow plugs, fog light & door are not connected are all the others on the same loom / connector?

I'll clear the codes now & see what it says after work tomorrow.

[BP2411]

Codes cleared, ignition cycled now it's just the glow plug warning, I'll scan again tomorrow after work.

 

Cheers!

[BP2411]

Just scanned after driving to work & back (10 miles) and got these codes

 

P0380 GLOW PLUG/ HEATER CIRCUIT A

P0184 FUEL TEMPERATURE SENSOR A CIRCUIT INTERMITTENT

 

 

[Tdci-Peter]

2 hours ago, BP2411 said:

Just scanned after driving to work & back (10 miles) and got these codes

Has a warning been displayed (light or message), and have there been any noticeable symptoms?

Once you have noted the codes (you can save Forscan log files to disk), clear them so you can see if they re-appear.

In some cases, it takes two occurrences of an error to display a warning on the dash. Clearing codes will stop the warning coming up in such cases, though it will still come on for more serious errors that warn on first occurrence.

The glowplug warning may or may not be linked to the juddering fault, but dead plugs will be very annoying once the weather turns really cold, so it might be worth investigating & fixing that one first. Common rail diesels start fine without plugs down to about 5C, but will smoke and labour, or take a long cranking time, much below this temperature.

[BP2411]

No notifications on the dash, still juddering & revving itself when idling, I'm going to get a quote from a garage for the plugs & leave the multi connector for now unless the codes come back, if they do I'll try contact cleaner first.

 

Thanks again for all the replies

[BP2411]

Every time I clear the codes glow plugs & fuel temp sensor come straight back, looks like a real PITA to do the glow plugs, wiper arms off, windscreen cowl off, headlights out, bulkhead cover off.  I can't for the life of me find a price for a fuel temp sensor online either.

[Tdci-Peter]

1 hour ago, BP2411 said:

I can't for the life of me find a price for a fuel temp sensor online either.

It looks like the sensor is built into the fuel return pipe system, and is not readily available separately. I can see what looks like a 2 pin connector in it.

But I have doubts as to the actual sensor being the cause of all the problems. Temperature sensors can be tested, they are usually either diodes or thermistors, and gross faults like open circuits can be detected with a multimeter. Also Forscan may be able to monitor the sensor to see if it is giving sensible readings in various states: Engine off, Ign on, Idling & running. I have logs of the fuel rail temperature (among other readings) for my car as a rough comparison.

Unless you can get a cheap second hand return pipe system, I suggest further tests are needed before investing in a new replacement pipe system. Note: There seem to be at least two versions, one with a priming hand pump, one without. The Ford no. for the one without pump is: 1550804.

Diagram: https://ford.7zap.com/en/car/47/no/13/1549/15354/66655/?detail=

eBay part:https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Genuine-Ford-Fiesta-Mk7-Fuel-Pipe-Hose-Harness-Less-Hand-Pump-1-4-TDCI-1550804-/182410610910?_trksid=p2349526.m4383.l4275.c1

(scary price!)

[BP2411]

I think (hope) the glow plugs not working properly is throwing the temperature fault up so I'll get the plugs done soon, just been to the garage, they've never done one before so can't say if it's an hour or 10's work so I'm reluctant to take it to them despite them being very good in the past. Surely it's no more than 2/3 hours work?

[TomsFocus]

The glowplugs aren't that difficult on these, people just like moaning about it because of the access work (scuttle removal etc),  In reality it only takes 10 minutes to remove the scuttles and covers etc. 

The main issue is the potential of snapping the plugs, this turns 90 mins work into several hours work.  If you're set on using a garage, I'd make sure it's one that has experience of them tbh.

[BP2411]

Is it a case of doing what I listed above?

wiper arms off

Windscreen scuttle panel off

Headlights out

Bulkhead cover out?

I done the EGR valve without removing any of that, I don't mind how long it takes to remove everything to get access I'm just worried about the plugs snapping.

[BP2411]

I've ordered the plugs, hoping to do it on the weekend, the fear of snapping the glow plugs is really putting me off, hopefully the Haynes manual states torque settongs for fitting the new ones.

[Tdci-Peter]

11 hours ago, BP2411 said:

the glow plugs not working properly

Just a thought, have you checked the glowplug fuse? Also that the glowplug relay is operating ok and delivering power to the plugs. The DTC could be caused by lack of power to the plugs.

On most cars I have seen the wiring of, the ECU monitors the voltage going out to the plugs. On some cars, including mine, the ECU does not monitor the current drawn, so has no idea if the actual plugs are good or not.

 

[BP2411]

I haven't but I've never changed the plugs since owning it and it's high mileage, I'll check them also though.  Any recommendations for removing the plugs? I've bought a reversible torque wrench but I don't know if I should soak them in something first? Plusgas gets good reviews but so does gt85, Halfords shock & unlock and no nonsense penetrating oil.

[Tdci-Peter]

1 minute ago, BP2411 said:

I haven't but I've never changed the plugs since owning it and it's high mileage, I'll check them also though.  Any recommendations for removing the plugs?

If the plugs have been in for years, then having a go at changing them now could be a good idea. They will only get more firmly stuck with age. If any are just too stiff, then leave them unless you are certain they are dead.

I think a warm engine might help. Especially if it has a ali head, as aluminium expands more than steel. Too hot and the steel in the plugs will be weaker, I did mine about an hour after a run.

When using a wrench, be careful not to apply side force, just a torque (turning force). Use a Tee-bar handle if you have one, or support the drive end of the ratchet driver with a roughly equal and opposite force to the force on the handle end of the driver.

If using any fluids, be aware that if the plugs are in a recess, and any fluid, along with the dirt it holds, will go down into the cylinders when the plug loosens. So use sparingly, and try to soak up any excess.

I am no expert here, I have only ever done 2 plugs. One was a pig as the inner casing had distorted, and it had to be turned and pulled all the way out, well past the end of the thread. So that is all I can think of, Tom has done far more than me. Some Pics and other info in this thread:

 

[TomsFocus]

Why do the headlights need to come out?  But yes, the wipers and scuttles etc need to come out for access at the back, they're quite a bit further down than the EGR and you want to be able to see and hold the socket as straight as possible - as Peter says, any sideways force risks breaking them.

You're unlikely to snap the new ones during fitting, but if possible add a bit of copper grease to the threads in case you ever need to remove them again.

My preference of penetrant is Plusgas, but Halfords shock & Unlock works surprisingly well and is easier to buy locally.  

When I did the first set on a 1.6 TDCi I found my normal deep socket wouldn't fit, I had to buy a proper glow plug socket.  I bought this set as an investment and have used them many times since.  But obviously you only need one size, 8mm for these iirc.  https://www.machinemart.co.uk/p/glow-plug-socket-set-3pc/  Depening on your tool kit, you may already have something that fits.

The only other bit of advice I can think of is be very careful when pulling the plug out, don't get overexcited by having loosened it lol.  They need to come straight out, not on an angle as if you snap the tip off you won't get it out without removing the cylinder head.  Fortunately I've not done that so far, but a mechanic mate of mine did.

[BP2411]

According to this video, the lights come out to get to 2 of the bulkhead bolts

Eurocarparts sell plusgas and I'm collecting the torque wrench from Screwfix (had £30 credit with them, £5 left now) which is why I was looking at this as an alternative.

https://www.screwfix.com/p/no-nonsense-penetrating-lubricating-oil-750ml/19320

[BP2411]

I know it's the facelift /mk7.5 but assumed it'd be the same.

[BP2411]

Down to 1 code now, glow plugs, just picked up a can of plus gas when it dries up a bit I'll check the fuse & relay and then make a start, given myself til Sunday to do it so I can keep soaking the old plugs and trying them with the torque wrench set low.

[BP2411]

Just had a quick look, took the wipers, windscreen cowl, headlights, bulkhead cover & air filter box out, got 3 of the 4 connections to the glow plugs off but can't for the life of me get to the 4th, hopefully it'll be dry tomorrow & I can investigate.

[BP2411]

Chickened out and took it to the garage today, they swapped the plugs, I put everything back together & cleared the codes but haven't had time to give it a run yet to see if anything comes back or if it's running right.

[Tdci-Peter]

1 hour ago, BP2411 said:

Chickened out and took it to the garage today, they swapped the plugs,

It is not the weather to be doing tricky or critical jobs outside! And more rain, cold & wind is forecast.

When I did mine, I only got 2 done, then it started to rain, and I packed up. Fortunately, one of the two was the duff one, though I had started at that end as I suspected a problem there. Two years on (almost), and the job has not been finished . I ought to finish it for the reason I gave above, the longer it is left, the worse it will be.

I would be a bit surprised, though pleasantly so, if the plugs cured all the problems. But let us know either way.

[BP2411]

Yeah the weather definitely didn't help & I've been ill for a week so out in the rain wasn't the perfect place for me, normally clearing the codes & cycling the ignition would then throw the glow plug code up but at the moment I have zero codes, I haven't taken it for a run yet but the glow plugs were the last code I needed to clear so fingers crossed.