53 plate Focus 1.8 Washers fault

[anh167]

Hi, first post on the Ford Owners forum, so HELLO :o)

On our 53 plate Focus 1.8 petrol, the washers stopped working. The wipers still work, just te washers that are faulty. Had a look online at what seemed to be common problem so thought it may be a straight forward fix but.....

Press the switch/pull the switch for either the front or rear washers, and nothing.

No buzzing noise to indicate the pump works.

Took the washer bottle out and removed the pump, and water poured out so no blockage at the outlet filter. Pump still does not work. Fitted a new pump as it was all apart.

Tested for live supply to the connecter, and both wires are permenant (ignition on) live. Fuses both in engine compartment and behind the glovebox, are in good order.

So would I be right in thinking it points to faulty switch? Is it the switch that 'earths' the circuits?

Hope someone can offer some helpful guidance please. 

[anh167]

Had another fiddle around on the car this morning but still no joy. I really don't want to have to put the car into a garage and brace myself for a hefty bill for 'investigative' labour charges, so can anyone help please?

Is it the switch that earths out a circuit foir the pump, seeing as live feed on both wires at the pump wiring connector, is detected when the ignition is turned on?

 

[TomsFocus]

I don't know the answer, but buying a used stalk to try will be considerably cheaper than putting it into the garage.

[madmole]

Both sides shouldn't be live!  Take pump and connect it to a 12v source or even a PP3 9v battery and see if it runs. normally on the pump, one connection is to earth the other a switched 13v feed

[anh167]

18 hours ago, madmole said:

Both sides shouldn't be live!  Take pump and connect it to a 12v source or even a PP3 9v battery and see if it runs. normally on the pump, one connection is to earth the other a switched 13v feed

When I touched a test lampinto each terminal in the plug that goes onto the pump, it lit up for both wires when the ignition was switched on. If only one is meant to be live, then would that mean that the switch is at fault allowing both to be live or is there a relay for the washers?

All the fuses are good, and I would have expected any short in the wiring to have blown a fuse.

[mjt]

On vehicles of this age the washer motor is driven directly from the stalk switch. The same motor is used for both front and rear wash by reversing the direction of the motor and using non-return valves. This means that both earth and live are switched by the stalk. If you follow the positions of switches c and d in the attached diagram you can see that normally, until a switch is activated, live will be present on both sides of the motor. Switch c controls rear wash/wipe and d front wash/wipe. When you operate the front wash switch d should earth one side of the motor and when you use the rear wash switch c should earth the other side.

[anh167]

6 hours ago, mjt said:

On vehicles of this age the washer motor is driven directly from the stalk switch. The same motor is used for both front and rear wash by reversing the direction of the motor and using non-return valves. This means that both earth and live are switched by the stalk. If you follow the positions of switches c and d in the attached diagram you can see that normally, until a switch is activated, live will be present on both sides of the motor. Switch c controls rear wash/wipe and d front wash/wipe. When you operate the front wash switch d should earth one side of the motor and when you use the rear wash switch c should earth the other side.

Thank you mjt. From previous answers I was beginning to think that bigger problems where ahead but your explaination seems to concur that yes, live at leads is correct so switch probably not doing its job. I will try another switch (need to go to a breakers for some bits for a Saab anyway), so hopefully will be sorted. Thank you again.

**please correct me if I have not understood your reply correctly.......

[anh167]

On 10/30/2018 at 11:30 AM, mjt said:

 

Tried a new unused switch today. Oh dear, no joy. 

So...... In the wiring diagram, on the left hand side above the 3 fuses, are the 2 R parts relays? If one of these could be at fault, where are they please? 

[mjt]

Those relays operate the wipers, not the wash, so they won't be the cause of your problem. R64 is the rear wiper relay and R162 is the front wiper relay.

Have you tried using your test lamp whilst someone operates the stalk to see if one or other side of the pump gets earthed? It could well be that there is a break in the wiring to one side of the pump. If this was the case you'd still see live on both sides with your test lamp when the wash is not being operated because live would be going to one side and the resistance of the motor is much less than the lamp. Since you've changed both pump and stalk and it still doesn't work either front or rear this seems quite a likely cause.

For example, let's assume there's a break somewhere between pump pin 1 and stalk pin 2. Then you'd still be getting live to pump pin 2 from stalk pin 4. Because there's no current flowing through the motor there's no voltage dropped across it so you see live both sides. If you operate the front wash, switch d, it won't earth pump pin 1 because of the break so you'd still see live both sides. If, however,  you operate rear wash, switch c, it will earth pump pin 2 and because of the break in the pin 1 path you'll then see earth both sides. The reverse would obviously be true if the break is in the other side of the pump. I hope that makes sense.

So, testing each side of the pump whilst someone operates the wash functions should allow you to determine whether there is a break and if so which side is affected.

[anh167]

11 hours ago, mjt said:

Those relays operate the wipers, not the wash, so they won't be the cause of your problem. R64 is the rear wiper relay and R162 is the front wiper relay.

Have you tried using your test lamp whilst someone operates the stalk to see if one or other side of the pump gets earthed? It could well be that there is a break in the wiring to one side of the pump. If this was the case you'd still see live on both sides with your test lamp when the wash is not being operated because live would be going to one side and the resistance of the motor is much less than the lamp. Since you've changed both pump and stalk and it still doesn't work either front or rear this seems quite a likely cause.

For example, let's assume there's a break somewhere between pump pin 1 and stalk pin 2. Then you'd still be getting live to pump pin 2 from stalk pin 4. Because there's no current flowing through the motor there's no voltage dropped across it so you see live both sides. If you operate the front wash, switch d, it won't earth pump pin 1 because of the break so you'd still see live both sides. If, however,  you operate rear wash, switch c, it will earth pump pin 2 and because of the break in the pin 1 path you'll then see earth both sides. The reverse would obviously be true if the break is in the other side of the pump. I hope that makes sense.

So, testing each side of the pump whilst someone operates the wash functions should allow you to determine whether there is a break and if so which side is affected.

Yep, fully go along with your workings there but when I did the original test, it was with the connector block unplugged from the motor. I placed a test lamp on each terminal of the plug and with ignition switched on, had feed down both wires, which would suggest both circuits are intact. 

I am at a loss to what is at fault. 

Pump... New

wiper stalk swapped for new

Fuses..... All good

Live down both wires

Pump still not pumping....... 

[mjt]

45 minutes ago, anh167 said:

when I did the original test, it was with the connector block unplugged from the motor. I placed a test lamp on each terminal of the plug and with ignition switched on, had feed down both wires, which would suggest both circuits are intact

Can't argue with that. 😀

The only other thing I can think of is that there's a break in the earth circuit between stalk pin 3 and E14.

[anh167]

1 hour ago, mjt said:

Can't argue with that. 😀

The only other thing I can think of is that there's a break in the earth circuit between stalk pin 3 and E14.

Cheers for that. I will patch in a seperate earth from the switch and see if that makes any difference. 

[anh167]

Well.... Had it all apart again.

Took the connector off the pump, ignition on.... live 12v down both wires... GOOD

Wires (+/-) from battery to old pump and no go. Touch wires to new fitted pump.... Washers work. Swap wires around and other washers work. Pump is GOOD. 

Fuses... had each one out in turn and all GOOD. 

Multi-meter plugged into connector plug that would go onto pump...... Front or rear washers actives on switch.... 1 wire stays 12v, 1 zero. Repeat procedure for other washers, and no wire being zero'd (earthed out) NOT GOOD. 

So I am hopefully right in assuming that as the pump does work separately that the fault does lie within the switch???? 

2nd hand 'good working order' switch on order, so fingers crossed. 

[mjt]

From these results, plus the ones you did previously which seemed to show the wiring is intact, it does suggest the fault lies within the switch but you said earlier you'd tried another switch.

If you are able it would still be worth using the multimeter to do a continuity test on each wire from stalk to pump.

[anh167]

3 hours ago, mjt said:

From these results, plus the ones you did previously which seemed to show the wiring is intact, it does suggest the fault lies within the switch but you said earlier you'd tried another switch.

If you are able it would still be worth using the multimeter to do a continuity test on each wire from stalk to pump.

I did indeed try another switch but..... it was slightly different, in that it did not have the variable intermittent wipe switch. Got the right type on order. 

[anh167]

On 11/5/2018 at 4:11 PM, mjt said:

From these results, plus the ones you did previously which seemed to show the wiring is intact, it does suggest the fault lies within the switch but you said earlier you'd tried another switch.

If you are able it would still be worth using the multimeter to do a continuity test on each wire from stalk to pump.

Switch arrived today but..... Still no joy. So I did as you said and carried out a continuity test between the pump plug and the wiper switch plug and both wires triggered the beeeeeeeeeeeeeeeep to show good continuity. 

Placed a secondary wire from terminal 3 on switch connector block (black wire) and a good earthing point but still no joy. 

Press the switch for washers and the wipers will do their part, sweep the screen a few times but nothing from the pump. 

If you pull the switch down for the single wipe mode and release, the wipers stop when you release, they do not return to park on their own. Put them on intermittent, slow or fast, and they will wipe and park OK. 

Any suggestions before I have to brace myself for a large bill getting a garage to look please......... Anyone? 

[mjt]

Well, this is really baffling. Sorry Tony but I'm afraid I can't think of anything else to try.

When I had problems with the single wipe non-parking on our old Mk1.5 it turned out to be burnt contacts in the relay but I can't see how that could be related to the pump problem. Did the single wipe work with your original switch?

[madmole]

When testing the contacts with the multimeter and the pump disconnected, there is only minuscule current draw, so the relays may be making good enough contact, however with the pump in circuit the current draw is higher and a bad relay contact may prevent enough current flow

 

Try pinning the wires at the switch and measuring with the pump IN the circuit